RV's to Boats

[CMA1992]

Well,
After about 10 years worth of cruising the asphalt, we are thinking of moving on to the water. I am an Ex-Marine engineer from Cal Maritime and have loved the ocean since the day my dad moved to Seattle in 1980 and have decided to "look into" buying a boat to replace the RV, and keep it in SF if at all possible? I have talked to a lot of people in the industry about all the costs involved and I found this forum while googling the differences between the "triple nickel" and the fords & figured this would be a great place to join and learn. Although I am comfortable with the ocean, the private "yacht" world is new to me!
So, a few parameters we are working with and trying to figure out.
1. Costs of owning a boat (not including the boat itself). Mooring -$625 ish insurance - $2000/yr What am I missing? Hall outs, maint, ect.
We are looking at 45-50ft in size About $175k budget
Thanks for the help in advance

 

[Rogerh]

We made the transition several years back. I find on the yacht I do most of the maintenance myself. On the RV I had most done. That can help on the maintenance cost allot. Use allot more fuel per mile but then you dont usually go as far. I think your insurance cost is way low. I expect double of what you were thinking. Haul outs and bottom job seems to be about 3K a year or maybe 2 years dependent on how bottoms last in your area.

 

[ancora]

Doing all your own work on the boat will be a big money-saver. Like myself, a retired millwright, you cannot afford to pay a mechanic as good as you are. By the way, my son graduated from CMA in 1995 and is a chief engineer.

 

[Rambler]

Like everything, the more things you can do yourself, the less expensive it might be. But remember that you more than likely have limitations, both skill sets and time, and there may be areas outside of your expertise that are best left to a skilled sorta-professional, at least the first time through. The key in hiring things out is finding a good yard and great mechanic that'll be fair and honest with you.

 

[timjet]

I've seen annual maintenance and operational figures of 10% of the cost of the boat thrown around. I have not kept dollar figures since I've owned my boat - I don't want to know.
I do almost all my own maintenance, but I did not do a required engine replacement last year.

 

[sunchaser]

If you don't care how your boat looks and smells you can save lots of money. No washing, waxing, varnish, rug replacement, new cushions, dealing with window leaks, patching leaks in the tanks, replacing bad heads and hoses, new enclosures, dealing with mildew etc. Costs depend on the owner's wishes and ability/desire to spend money. What you vs the next guy chooses to spend on the same vessel can amount to many thousands (tens of) of difference per year. But, I have drawn the line at buying the latest in TV watching gear!

Bottom line, it will cost a lot more than an RV.

 

[Lollygag]

Boats are a lot like RVs (I have both) in that if you use it often or live on it, you fix things as you go and it doesn't seem so expensive. Leave it in the slip for months at a time and then use it for a weekend and put it away and you'll have problems everytime you use it. She'll always seem like an expensive boondoggle because you only see the problems when you want to use her. Your budget and estimates of costs are reasonable and you'll find a great boat at that price.

 

[CPseudonym]

In the RV you can see the road pretty clearly and avoid the potholes, not so much in a boat. Cost of running gear replacement can be breath taking. The radiator is pretty forgiving in an RV but the water intake can plug at anytime in a boat and cook impellers and other costly bits. Getting stranded in the RV means at most a long walk to cell reception to call for a tow, getting stranded on the water even relatively close to civilization can be a bit more dicey.

Medical emergencies fairly close to a marina can take an hour or more for help to respond, many miles out and help can potentially be days away. I love boating and camping but for all their similarities the differences can be stark.

A friend with an Alegro Bus recently complained of the difficulty involved with taking it back to the dealer for reliable servicing of the generator. There is no dealer support to speak of for the overwhelming majority of these boats.

 

[Underway]

If you don't care how your boat looks and smells you can save lots of money. No washing, waxing, varnish, rug replacement, new cushions, dealing with window leaks, patching leaks in the tanks, replacing bad heads and hoses, new enclosures, dealing with mildew etc. Costs depend on the owner's wishes and ability/desire to spend money. What you vs the next guy chooses to spend on the same vessel can amount to many thousands (tens of) of difference per year. But, I have drawn the line at buying the latest in TV watching gear!

Bottom line, it will cost a lot more than an RV.

This description fits about half the looper boats that limp into the harbor. We dread the late summer rush toward Chicago.

 

[mahal]

Don't forget to add property tax. In California it is 1% of the boat's value. But that's probably a wash since you pay that on your RV already.

Other things to include are: bottom cleaning, washing, waxing, brightwork.

When I did my $ estimating before buying, I did not include the washing, waxing and varnishing expenses thinking that I would be doing them myself. It didn't take long for me to find out that it wasn't for me. So something to think about.

 

[windmill29130]

Well,
After about 10 years worth of cruising the asphalt, we are thinking of moving on to the water. I am an Ex-Marine engineer from Cal Maritime and have loved the ocean since the day my dad moved to Seattle in 1980 and have decided to "look into" buying a boat to replace the RV, and keep it in SF if at all possible? I have talked to a lot of people in the industry about all the costs involved and I found this forum while googling the differences between the "triple nickel" and the fords & figured this would be a great place to join and learn. Although I am comfortable with the ocean, the private "yacht" world is new to me!
So, a few parameters we are working with and trying to figure out.
1. Costs of owning a boat (not including the boat itself). Mooring -$625 ish insurance - $2000/yr What am I missing? Hall outs, maint, ect.
We are looking at 45-50ft in size About $175k budget
Thanks for the help in advance

If the passion is there, go for it. It's only money. If you have any hesitation then reevaluate your decision. Most people people find out in the first 6 months they regret their decision to buy a boat. BTW, Boats are harder to sell, so be sure. Good Luck, shopping is half the fun.

 

[bligh]

DONT DO IT!
Just kidding. Good luck!

 

[Rogerh]

We made the move and are really happy we did it. Yes we miss the RV but we use the boat allot more. As far as costs, we bought a 1990 boat which needed work but we new that going in. The day to day maintenance is about the same. Mostly the same systems to maintain etc. The bottom paint is an added item of course. If you do go boat use it all the time. Even if we are not going on a trip we go to it for happy hour etc.

 

[markpierce]

Don't forget to add property tax. In California it is 1% of the boat's value.

Property taxes on homes, boats, and so on in California is a minimum of one percent. In Solano County where my boat is, it is 1.16% ($2,274.71). In some counties, it approaches 1.5%. I also have the honor of paying property tax ($95.13) on the berth rented from the City of Vallejo.

 

[CMA1992]

Wow,
A lot of info in only 1 day. Thanks for all the help! It seems that the 10% is a reasonable "guess" as I know nobody can tell you to the penny how much it will cost.
Sunchaser, you make a great point. I guess it really does matter how much you really want to put into your boat. BTW, A Defever is one of the boat brands we are looking at. Anything you can tell us about it, in a nutshell I assume you could talk all day about these nice big boats
Ancora, glad to here your son is doing well. I like to hear news of CMA grads making good in the industry. I only sailed for 6 years before going to work for myself. I loved the job, being away from home 4/5 months at a time, not so much.
So onto the boats. Are there any boats out there to avoid or look for? Finding out that boats are all very different, unlike a car. 2010 honda/Toyota ect are all pretty good cars. With boats, I am finding statements like "1 of 20 made", "only 9 made for private yacht". It's not like all 200,000 2010 Hondas are the same.
And the big thing seems to be power! It seems Fords are good, the 555 cummins has mixed reviews and so on. Volvo, Cats, International, Oh my
Thanks again for all the quick replies!

 

[windmill29130]

Wow,
A lot of info in only 1 day. Thanks for all the help! It seems that the 10% is a reasonable "guess" as I know nobody can tell you to the penny how much it will cost.
Sunchaser, you make a great point. I guess it really does matter how much you really want to put into your boat. BTW, A Defever is one of the boat brands we are looking at. Anything you can tell us about it, in a nutshell I assume you could talk all day about these nice big boats
Ancora, glad to here your son is doing well. I like to hear news of CMA grads making good in the industry. I only sailed for 6 years before going to work for myself. I loved the job, being away from home 4/5 months at a time, not so much.
So onto the boats. Are there any boats out there to avoid or look for? Finding out that boats are all very different, unlike a car. 2010 honda/Toyota ect are all pretty good cars. With boats, I am finding statements like "1 of 20 made", "only 9 made for private yacht". It's not like all 200,000 2010 Hondas are the same.
And the big thing seems to be power! It seems Fords are good, the 555 cummins has mixed reviews and so on. Volvo, Cats, International, Oh my
Thanks again for all the quick replies!

Best thing to do is research and decide exactly what you want, then start shopping. I had a few criteria and I only looked at boats that fit it.Twin Naturally aspirated lehmans, no teak decks, aft cabin (ADMIRAL did not like the water slap in the bow), 35-38 footer, and away we went. Two years later we found her.

 

[boatpoker]

Try Marine Survey 101 to help separate wheat from chafe

 

[CMA1992]

Thanks for the help as always. That Survey 101 was really involved but helpful to know what there is to look at.
Been looking at all kinds of boats and have found 3 "styles" or models that we like and would like to get a few opinions on the differences.
Defever 48-50', Californian 52', and Sea Ranger 52'.
I plan on taking the boat outside the Golden Gate in San Francisco and on along the Northern coast of California. Are Californian and Sea Rangers good boats for this style of use? They seem to be very "pretty" inside vs the Defever but I think the Defever is a more rugged ocean boat. Is this a good observation? Thanks again

 

[sunchaser]

but I think the Defever is a more rugged ocean boat. Is this a good observation? Thanks again

Yes, the DF is a good offshore vessel. Art DeFever designed them for the rugged Pacific offshore conditions. But on a used vessel the best of designs and initial layup can be undone by a sloppy and careless owner or two.

 

[CMA1992]

So,
Been looking at a lot of boats and I have another question I am seeing a lot of boats at varying prices for pretty much the same boat. (I know they are never the same, as owner maint is a huge part of the quality of the boat, at least ones built in the 80's which we are looking at) but I was wondering if anybody knew a rough estimate of what a re-power would cost for a twin diesel low Horse-power style boat. Either replacing Ford-Lehmans or cat 3208's with new/newer more reliable power plants? Thanks as always

 

[CPseudonym]

Easily more than the boat is worth. Depending upon how much of the work you do yourself, and DIY boatyards can be as rare as rocking horse poop. $120+ per man per hour labor rates add up in a hurry.

Dependent upon engine and access I've heard $40-60,000 ballpark for twins. Seldom if ever is it just an engine swap. Too many other things become "easy to do" since "the engines are already out"

Re-powering happens but it's usually done because you love the boat and have the desire to hold it fairly long term. A fellow in my marina has perhaps $120,000 wrapped up in an older Bertram 28 right now. Am told he kisses the checks every month before he hands them across the desk because he'll never see the money again.

 

[sunchaser]

So, Either replacing Ford-Lehmans or cat 3208's with new/newer more reliable power plants? Thanks as always

You will not find a more reliable new power plant than one of these two properly maintained. For likely less than $5K per engine for an FL and $8K for the Cat the hang ons can be properly serviced and if needed replaced with new/rebuilt.

If you have to pull the heads walk on that vessel as all bets are off if age or abuse is internal. Ditto transmission and stern tube area, if too bad walk. A good engine survey will reveal go forward issues and costs.

 

[caltexflanc]

The "10% rule" is in my opinion, total nonsense. Simply because a totally clapped out $100,000 boat is going to require much more investment than one in perfect condition.

In reality cost of ownership (given how the boat is used is a constant) depends on

1) what your standards are for seaworthiness, comfort, convenience and cosmetics. "Seaworthiness" means at least everything to do with structural integrity, propulsion, steering, keeping you and the boat safely afloat and not burning it down.
2) what shape the boat is in when you buy it: how far from those standards is it, or will be in the foreseeable future if nothing is done?
3) cost to bring it to your standards over what period of time you are willing to wait
4) keeping to those standards
5) how much you can competently do yourself (to the standards) and your desire to do it and what value you put on your time.
6) How much it costs to have competent professionals do the stuff not in #5

The first half or so of David Pascoe's "Mid Sized Power Boats" is the best primer I have seen on most of these issues, money well spent. It gives most newbies a sense of key things to consider and look for. You can take his opinion of different makes of boats and either discard them (dated in most cases, or based on limited samples) or with a big bag of rock salt at best. But the fundamentals are sound, and will begin to guide you to developing what exactly your standards are.

 

[pilothouse king]

The "10% rule" is in my opinion, total nonsense. Simply because a totally clapped out $100,000 boat is going to require much more investment than one in perfect condition.

.

I've used the "10% per annum" figure for many years, as have other brokers, but that's for a new to very late model vessels. I also wish surveyors would quit telling boat buyers to "go buy a RV" as they're handing a buyer the bill for a disaster they just finished surveying. Many in Florida have dockage behind our homes, but either no space next to them for parking a RV if we wanted one, and the majority of communities have zoning or HOAs that forbid them anyway. On the other hand there's no shortage of product is there? You seen LaMesa RV on I-95 or those dealerships on I-75? Wow. And here us brokers are searching high and low for nice boats to sell. Yes, I've entertained the thoughts of jumping ship.

 

[windmill29130]

So,
Been looking at a lot of boats and I have another question I am seeing a lot of boats at varying prices for pretty much the same boat. (I know they are never the same, as owner maint is a huge part of the quality of the boat, at least ones built in the 80's which we are looking at) but I was wondering if anybody knew a rough estimate of what a re-power would cost for a twin diesel low Horse-power style boat. Either replacing Ford-Lehmans or cat 3208's with new/newer more reliable power plants? Thanks as always

Why in the world would you want to repower a boat that has Lehmans? They are the most economical, reliable, and bulletproof diesels ever made. You would be better off doing a rebuild, it would say you a whole lot of money and you would have a better engine than you could buy. Who knows, but that lehman you want to replace may have another 5-10, 000 hours left in it.

 

[psneeld]

Rebuild the Lehmans or Cat 3208s...bt will last forever if done and maintained correctly.

There's a place in Crisfield, Md that used to do Cat 3208s for a song.

 

[deckofficer]

From the other thread.

Was Jim Buckley and Jim Wheeler at CMA for '92? I would rate them at the top.

 

[CMA1992]

Yes, Dr. Wheeler was there, he was actually my favorite there. Maybe because he was my 1st teacher I had there. My freshman year, I believe I was in his class both long trimesters. Not during the cruise winter one though. I talked to him a few years ago at Homecoming and he seemed to be doing well. As for Buckley, he was there I belive but since I transferred to the Eng dept, I didn't have much interaction with him. I had no idea Dr Wheeler had been there that long. When did you get out of CMA? I see you love Hot Rods, are you a boater as well?

 

[deckofficer]

I see your going by all the grey in my beard in the avatar and assume I'm older and graduated earlier. Since I entered CMA in my mid 40's your probably right on the first count. I entered for the class of '98 but with my college from 71 transferring, graduated class of '97.

As to hot rods, yes, had that addiction for 40+ years. The avatar is my Swiss Army knife of a hot rod. Over 1 G cornering, 9.7 in the quarter, good street manners and acceptable fuel mileage. Unlike all my previous hot rods, this one as Dr Wheeler would say, doesn't try to bend the Laws of Physics. It only weighs 1790 lbs, powered by a 427 into a 5 speed manual out to a Jag IRS.

On the boating front it has been awhile. Last off shore capable boat was before CMA, had a Cal 40. Currently I'm entertaining the project of a trailerable, offshore capable 30' power catamaran. At CMA I did my thesis on minimum wetted surface vessels (back then it was fast ferries), and have always wanted something efficient. A couple of years ago when we had the first major price drop in LiFePO4 lithium cells I put together an electric kayak. 62 lbs of these cells allowed me to cruise the entire 75 mile shoreline of Lake Tahoe. Now with solar panels I want to scale it up to a 30' cat. Concept is enough solar for 40 nm per day coupled to enough storage for 120 nm day's run.

 

[ancora]

As a marine engineer, be advised that Volvo does not support legacy engines. If you need parts for a Volvo engine that is no longer in production, you are SOL.