Salt water in fwd bilge

[kernr]

Good Morning -
So, the is a 2008 GB 47 Europa and we are up in Maine cruising currently. I have an annoying problem that I would like to get a handle on. The forward bilge is getting water in it - not a lot but just an annoying amount that I know is there. This morning I took a taste and it’s definitely salt water. By way of my past experiences as a submariner there is a saying, “it’s never good to have water in the people tank.” So, I am trying to figure out the source. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Bob

 

[Mambo42]

Do you have any thru hulls in that area ? Or perhaps a filter for an air conditioning ? Inlet hose for a salt water toilet ? Leakage around the bow thruster ? Water coming in via the water outlet of the chain well ?
I would be surprised to hear the hull has been breached.

 

[rslifkin]

If the boat has hollow stringers with limber holes it's possible that water is coming from elsewhere and running forward through the stringers.

 

[kernr]

Mambo 42 - The fwd head has a bilge pump overboard and a sump overboard for two showers and one sink. No obvious leakage from those connections. AC compressors have sump in ER. Heads are fresh water flush. The bow thruster is a real good thought - I’ll look into that one. I wouldn’t think chain locker can get water into boat but I’ll make sure. Thnxs for response

 

[sunchaser]

When new, our chain locker had a slight leak into the forward bilge. The bolt and drilled hole for the bitter end tie point was drilled too deep. Easy fix but it was tough to find.

 

[tiltrider1]

Does the water only show up after anchoring?

Does the water only show up after a day on the water?

Does the water show up after 5 days of just sitting at the dock?

 

[kernr]

Tiltrider 1 - All great questions. Since I’ve just started on this search I’ll have to take better notes. Anyone that knows this area of a GB Europa knows it’s not an easy access area and difficult to get into. Thnxs
Bob

 

[Mambo42]

One thing that came to mind happened to us this spring. We had the boat in a warm water port for the winter, was a pretty dirty place, but on returning the hull was clean. So we did not check the thru hulls for barnacles, however all of them were fully blocked. The moment we switched on the water maker the waste water could not be pumped overboard and it was discharged in the boat as the pressure started to build.
Am not saying that happened in your case, but leakages can happen for various reasons and many times they are difficult to find.
Good luck solving the mystery.

 

[O C Diver]

Can you post a picture of your model of boat and give us an idea of where the forward bilge ends?

Next, where do the forward bilge pumps discharge overboard?

Where does the anchor locker drain to?

Any saltwater plumbing in the forward area (saltwater flush head) other than cooling water for the AC?

I would certainly start by making the forward bilge bone dry. Then I would start keeping a log relative to travel, anchoring, air conditioning, and rough weather. Obviously you will want to check the bilge daily. On days when the boat goes under way, check after pulling the anchor (if anchored) and after stopping for the day.

Ted

 

[kernr]

O C Diver -
The forward bilge goes from the forward ER bulkhead to the Bow of boat. Probably 15 to 18 feet in length. Two heads with shower / sink drains - FW flush. All AC compressors in ER. Two sumps that have overboards Port and Starboard. One fwd bilge pump that goes thru overboard on Starboard side. The anchor chain locker drains directly overboard and not inboard.

Fwd bilge is currently been dried out and we will be monitoring it closely until we locate sw source. Thnxs for response.
Bob

 

[O C Diver]

O C Diver -
The forward bilge goes from the forward ER bulkhead to the Bow of boat. Probably 15 to 18 feet in length. Two heads with shower / sink drains - FW flush. All AC compressors in ER. Two sumps that have overboards Port and Starboard. One fwd bilge pump that goes thru overboard on Starboard side. The anchor chain locker drains directly overboard and not inboard.

Fwd bilge is currently been dried out and we will be monitoring it closely until we locate sw source. Thnxs for response.
Bob

Ok, so I would check the following:

How far above the water are the sump discharge and bilge pump though hulls? Does the hose go above the through hull and then come back down and out? While the sumps aren't likely to leak water into the bilge by design, water coming in through the bilge pump through hull would gather in the bilge. That would be my first place to look. All my bilge pumps looped atleast 18" above the through hull before coming down and out.

Does the anchor locker drain through a hose or a through hull in the locker? If a hose, worth checking.

Ted

 

[lwarden]

Do you have a raw water washdown for the anchor?

 

[kernr]

O C Diver - so, the good news is this is a well made GB All of the bilge and sumps loop at least 18” above overboard. I just double checked to make sure there have been no mods to that The anchor locker is drained overboard about 18” above WL.

Iwarden - the wash down is FW

Thnxs for suggestions
Bob

 

[O C Diver]

O C Diver - so, the good news is this is a well made GB All of the bilge and sumps loop at least 18” above overboard. I just double checked to make sure there have been no mods to that The anchor locker is drained overboard about 18” above WL.

Iwarden - the wash down is FW

Thnxs for suggestions
Bob

Another thought:

You taste tested for saltwater. There may have been saltwater that evaporated in the bilge, possibly before your ownership. The salt would obviously be left behind after the evaporation. The current leak may not be saltwater. Don't know if there's a simple way to test salinity next time water is present.

Ted

 

[kernr]

Ted - keep the ideas coming because I am checking each one out. So, we arrived to a mooring in Casco Bay called the Goslings - really beautiful. The fwd bilge dry before leaving and 1 1/2 hour ride in zero sea state. I looked at bilge and 1/2” of water. I have a TDS Tester for water maker. Tested bilge water and read 9999ppm. Our fw tanks read 180 but also have some chlorine in them. The water maker made water this morning and the TDS was 125 to 130ppm. Definitely salt water and appears to be coming from further aft. Possible system is macerator overboard. Frustrating but I’ll keep looking.
Bob

 

[O C Diver]

Do you have a bow thruster?

Is your water maker forward of the engine room bulkhead?

How is the saltwater wash down plumbed through this area?

Seacocks in the forward compartment?

What was your top speed today?

Something else to consider:
If there's a noticeable change in the trim of your boat (bow to stern) when cruising, water may accumulate in an area and not move to the bilge until you get underway or come off cruise trim.

Ted

 

[kernr]

Yes, there is a bow thruster - needs to be carefully examined. I have not yet because I don’t see any trickle coming from forward into area. Water maker is in lazaret compartment aft of ER. No salt water wash down - FW wash down. Top speed - 8 kts

I did check out macerator overboard and absolute dry as is region on stbd side of holding tank and sump contain/ pump.

Dried out when we moored and I’ll look before underway this AM.
BOB

 

[O C Diver]

Any seacocks in the forward bilge area?

Any transducers in the that area?

Any other hull penetrations in the forward bilge area?

Any heads or sinks that dump overboard in that area?

Ted

 

[SteveK]

I had a GB36 and the forward bilge pump was the only one that ran from float switches, the mid just sat waiting for water. The GB36 and probably yours when in the water the forward bilge is the lowest point. Look at a picture of the hull on the hard and you can see it.
Check the stuffing box for weeping.
You can also dam up the holes in the stringer, access usually in the ER to show if water backs up and forward bilge becomes drier.

 

[kernr]

OC Diver & SteveK - Well not much luck with discovery here. I just got finished tearing up fwd stateroom to look at bow thruster - totally dry and secure. Still have minor sea water seepage - had to clean out fwd bilge after overnight on mooring. Maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a gallon.
I think I will stuff aft limber hole in fwd bilge area to see if that points to something. Frustrating. Bob

 

[kernr]

Good afternoon everyone -

Well, we are back home at this point after a month up in the Maine areas of Casco and Penobscot Bays. We were very fortunate with beautiful weather and very little fog. Enjoyed all of the sites recommended by our Mainiac friends on this forum. Great trip!!

The latest on the water leak is that it still exists. The last leg of the journey home was a 6 hour slog from Buzzaeds Bay to Newport, RI. After completely drying out the bilge once again we shut the bilge pump hull valve for fwd bilge and started the trip home. When we got to Newport we checked it out and sure enough about 2 1/2 gallons of salt water - a typical amount for a 6 hour run.

So, now back to the drawing board. I believe we will empty out chain locker next and spray water in locker to clean out and inspect for leakage into people tank. After that we will start re-bedding ports and fixtures on both sides of boat - since the forward overhead liner shows no dampness I believe the overhead hatches are sound.

If any more suggestions - I am all ears.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[hmason]

We had a water problem recently that turned out to be a leaking rudder post. Don't know if your boat sits slightly bow down and water can run forward. Worth a check.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yup, when I had the leaking shaft packing problem the water ran to the bow and was removed by the forward bilge pump and not the one in the engine room that was the closest to the source.

 

[kernr]

That is very interesting. The GB Europa doesn’t appear to have a path from lazerette bilge are or ER bilge area to forward bilge area. Each area has a solid forward bulkhead with no limber hole through to other areas. What is the water’s path forward?
Bob

 

[rslifkin]

That is very interesting. The GB Europa doesn’t appear to have a path from lazerette bilge are or ER bilge area to forward bilge area. Each area has a solid forward bulkhead with no limber hole through to other areas. What is the water’s path forward?
Bob

What is the construction of the stringers? On my boat (not a GB) the stringers are hollow fiberglass boxes and the limber holes are open to the inside of the stringers. So if water comes from further outboard (like a stuffing box or rudder post) it may run into a stringer through a limber hole, but not out the hole directly opposite it, and instead run forward or aft through the stringer and exit at a different point.

 

[SteveK]

My GB36 had limber holes and water would go to the forward bilge pump. The ER pump only operted when I tested it.
Current boat mid bilge has only run when shower sump overflows. All ER water is contained separate from forward half of bilge.

 

[O C Diver]

Two thoughts came to mind.

Whether swimming or in a dinghy, go around the boat from the bulkhead forward. Identify ALL the through hull discharges. This means for every through hull, what is it connected to. You might find one that's either not connected to anything, is plugged, or is leaking either around the fitting or in the internal plumbing.

The second thought is whether you have deck drains. My boat has very nice large scuppers in the bow. At the end of the bow deck on each side is a screened deck drain. It's purpose is to keep water from collecting in the corner. You said that you moved the boat on a calm day and accumulated bilge water. While I doubt the deck drain is leaking, it might be leaking at the through hull or in the plumbing above it.

Ted

 

[kernr]

Steven - so, today I went to boat - there is no new water in any bilge after a couple of really hard showers - so that is good news but she has just sat alongside her home berth for 6 days with no hull movement thru water. I also took the time to look at the stringers and they appear to be filled - I assume with some type of foam. Every limber hole in each stringer was solid. So I am thinking that this is not a water path. Maybe someone else that owns a GB Europa 47 with 3 bilge areas and three bilge pumps knows more about GB stringer construction than I currently do. Thanks for trying to help out.
Bob

 

[kernr]

Ted -
Thanks for hanging in there with me on this one. I have sort have done a casual inspection of thru hulls but your idea is a good one and I’ll go back and document each thru hull on the boat - there are quite a few I also still need to carefully inspect the chain locker by removing chain and cleaning.

This kind of sea water in the people tank problem is not only frustrating but the investigation sure makes you understand your boat.

As far as deck drains - they all appear to be aft mostly over the lazerette. I will also double check this fact.
Thanks,
Bob

 

[tiltrider1]

In the past with different boats we discovered bow waves that traveled enough water to enter poorly sealed port lights. While most port lights (or other hull penetrations) usually leak from the top down, it is possible that you have one leaking from the bottom up.

At this time my suspicions are aimed at the bow wave.