Sea going Hybrids are here like it or not

[Woodland Hills]

Haven't there been a couple of major fires aboard the Greenlines? Burning lithium batteries would make it nearly impossible to extinguish once started......

 

[twistedtree]

Haven't there been a couple of major fires aboard the Greenlines? Burning lithium batteries would make it nearly impossible to extinguish once started......

I don't know about any Greenline fires, but I have been researching fire fighting measures for LiFePO4 batteries which is the chemistry used in all the boat applications that I'm aware of. Several important things have surfaced:

1) The Boeing fire that has received so much attention, were Lithium Cobolt batteries. It's what's used in a lot of laptops, etc, and definitely burns.

2) LiFePO4, on the other hand doesn't burn

3) When people hear "lithium", they think lithium metal which reacts with water to release hydrogen and is very difficult to extinguish if burning. However, there is no lithium metal in LiFePO4 batteries. Thinking the lithium in LiFePO4 is going burn is like thinking water will explode because it contains hydrogen molecules. It doesn't.

4) Probably the worst case fault with a battery is a short circuit that heats and damages the battery causing further internal shorts, etc. Basically, the entire energy content of the battery will be released in a potentially spectacular way. But this is really no different from a runaway melt down of a lead acid battery - something we all face on our boats today, and a risk we accept.

5) In the case of a melt down, there are two adjunct risks. One is release of toxic or caustic chemicals from the battery, and the other is the risk of the heat setting something else on fire. The risk of fire spread is handled with conventional fire fighting techniques just like a LA battery. And the released chemicals from a LiFePO4 battery are less caustic an toxic than the sulfuric acid released from a LA battery.

Most of this comes from reading the MSDS publications for various LiFePO4 batteries.

I'm no expert, but I'm planning to use LiFePO4 and want to know if fire protection measures need to be different from what's used with LA batteries. The research I've turned up so far say's no special measures are required, and that LiFePO4 is actually safer to have on board than LA.

 

[Woodland Hills]

From Cruiser Forum: Greenline exploded - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Google greenline fires and the 2012 fire comes up too. You may be contemplating using LifePo4, but it appears that not everyone else did......

 

[psneeld]

Used tires have been a fuel source for quite awhile.....

Scrap Tire News | The source for news and information about the scrap tire and rubber recycling industry.

Tire Derived Fuel (TDF) Information


Tire Derived Fuel (TDF) - Overview
A major use for scrap tires is fuel. Tire-derived-fuel (tdf) is a fuel derived from scrap tires of all kinds. This may include whole tire or tires processed into uniform, flowable pieces that satisfy the specifications of the end-user. Scrap tires are used as fuel either shredded or whole depending on the type of combustion unit.

TDF is the oldest and most developed market for scrap tires in the U.S. Industrial facilities across the country, including cement kilns, pulp and paper mills and electric utilities use tdf as a supplemental fuel to increase boiler efficiency, decrease air emissions and lower costs. More than 52 percent of the 300 million scrap tires generated annually are consumed as tdf in these facilities providing a cleaner and more economical alternative to traditional fuels.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) described TDF as a high Btu-value fuel with lower emissions, including lower greenhouse gas emissions, than comparable traditional fuels, in a 2009 Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. In earlier studies, EPA concluded, “With proper emission controls, burning tires for their fuel energy can be an environmentally sound method of disposing a difficult waste.”

 

[Ski in NC]

Tire Derived Fuel!!! Awesome!!!

 

[psneeld]

Yep Ski.....

For every perception....look elsewhere to find what you want...

 

[BruceK]

Visiting northern Queensland we did a river tourist trip on an electrically powered boat. Very quiet, good for sneaking up on animals, birds, reptiles etc, on the banks.
A steamboat is equally uncannily silent. A friend had one he imported from England, there is another on our marina, an English import too I think.

 

[Insequent]

I know what you mean, but also these things start larger. You see it accepted in 150' boats and it may well make it to 50'.

The thing I did not like about the Wider 150 was using Li polymer. Sure they have high power density but the fire risk is too high for my liking. In boats, or planes - Boeing will learn this sooner or later.

But there are already smaller systems for boats. Whisper Power have 'big boat systems' suitable for boats 20m and up.
WhisperPower - Generating Confidence

Still, you might need slightly larger to get to their optimal setups, which use a DC busbar of 700-750 V DC. Diagram below uses 'just' 650 VDC and battery banks of 80Ah at 512 V DC. Its not clear to me what they would propose for the entry level 20m size boat. And by just saying 'lithium ion' I fear they are not using the safer Li chemistry (LiFePO4) either. Still not there yet, but getting closer!

 

[FF]

"Burning lithium batteries would make it nearly impossible to extinguish once started......"

IF fire is a fear why would most folks purchase GRP boats not made with FR ( Fire Retarding) resin? The cost difference is pennies.

Any one that has seen a GRP boat burn knows the difficulty of putting out the fire.

 

[Cottontop]

From Cruiser Forum: Greenline exploded - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Google greenline fires and the 2012 fire comes up too. You may be contemplating using LifePo4, but it appears that not everyone else did......

Lots of boats catch fire. Do you always suspect the batteries?

 

[Cottontop]

So far, I don't see how it helps. Greenline is the largest seller of Hybrids so focusing on a Greenline 39, on a fully charged battery pack it can run 20 miles at 4 knots. At 6.5 knots it can go about half that. So, what is it really doing for you?

If you want to run around at 30 knots, Greenline might not be the boat for you. But if you want to cruise the French canals at 5 knots, it might be just the thing.

 

[Benthic2]

Plus it might be nice to only run your engine for 3 or 4 hours on a 6 hour cruise.....or to troll for fish very quietly. Hybrid cars started out as small niche vehicles and are now fairly mainstream. I'd expect boats to follow the same market penetration trajectory.

 

[BandB]

If you want to run around at 30 knots, Greenline might not be the boat for you. But if you want to cruise the French canals at 5 knots, it might be just the thing.

Well, I do want to run at 30 knots, but that's beside the point. French canals at 5 knots fine. However, currents and wind in the places I cruise make 4 knots nearly useless.

 

[BandB]

Plus it might be nice to only run your engine for 3 or 4 hours on a 6 hour cruise.....or to troll for fish very quietly. Hybrid cars started out as small niche vehicles and are now fairly mainstream. I'd expect boats to follow the same market penetration trajectory.

Hybrid cars are mainstream but a very small stream, just much bigger than they were. So, why the growth? Government mileage mandates. Couple the financial incentives there with other financial incentives and electric and hybrid were developed. That development was not market driven. Without some huge push, I think we're years away from hybrid boats making a significant impact and think they may never as a better solution may hit first.

 

[FF]

"and think they may never as a better solution may hit first."

Energy storage is the key , batts will need to get 10X better at energy density and recharge times.

 

[gaston]

Hybrid cars are mainstream but a very small stream, just much bigger than they were. So, why the growth? Government mileage mandates. Couple the financial incentives there with other financial incentives and electric and hybrid were developed. That development was not market driven. Without some huge push, I think we're years away from hybrid boats making a significant impact and think they may never as a better solution may hit first.

Im in Japan for a few week if you think hybrid cars are very small mainstream come her for a week it will change your mind 90% of rental cars are now hybrid and many many new cars are

 

[twistedtree]

Plus it might be nice to only run your engine for 3 or 4 hours on a 6 hour cruise.....or to troll for fish very quietly. Hybrid cars started out as small niche vehicles and are now fairly mainstream. I'd expect boats to follow the same market penetration trajectory.

Quietly trolling, and poking your way down a French canal are use cases where a hydrid may provide a benefit - quieter operation. The question is whether you are willing to lower your overall fuel efficiency to get that. Some people will, but I would argue that its a very small few.

And I don't think hybrid boats will track the market acceptance of hybrid cars, even setting aside all the non-market forces that BandB mentions. The reason is that a hybrid car improves gas mileage across almost all forms of car use, and comes with little to no adverse operating characteristics. In other words, other than cost, it's all good and no bad. As a result it has universal appeal.

But that's not the case with a boat. If a car hybrid were like a boat hybrid, it would be a quiet car when parking and under a few driving conditions, but overall get worse mileage. How many do you think would be on the road under those conditions?

 

[BandB]

Im in Japan for a few week if you think hybrid cars are very small mainstream come her for a week it will change your mind 90% of rental cars are now hybrid and many many new cars are

They're growing there and here and rental cars are typically a place any technology grows most rapidly as builders want to get their latest and greatest into the rental fleet. Now in the US there has been backing off from that philosophy with subsidies of rental fleets drastically reduced.

In Japan, Toyota dominates the rental market and their goal was 50% of car sales to be hybrid.

They have reached much larger share in Japan, but hybrid sales are still a small percentage in the US.

Here's an interesting US statistic. Hybrids as a percentage of auto sales in the US decreased from 2013 to 2016 from 3.1% to 2.0%. Well over half of all hybrids ever sold in the US have been Toyota.

 

[OldDan1943]

Folks must understand, they are not eliminating the pollution. They are 'moving' the pollution making machinery out of town. Plus, if the infrastructure (wires) are downed during a storm, you cannot recharge your totally electric car.

 

[john61ct]

The key to tackling climate change: electrify everything
The key to tackling climate change: electrify everything

Electric cars emit 50% less greenhouse gas than diesel, study finds
Electric cars emit 50% less greenhouse gas than diesel, study finds | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

 

[AusCan]

Folks must understand, they are not eliminating the pollution. They are 'moving' the pollution making machinery out of town. Plus, if the infrastructure (wires) are downed during a storm, you cannot recharge your totally electric car.

You may be still running on coal fired electricity generation over there, but much of the world is rapidly changing to renewable power stations because they are cheaper, even without incentives.

And you are right. During a blackout, you cannot recharge your battery, or pump gasoline.

You can only hang on to the past for so long.

 

[FF]

"You may be still running on coal fired electricity generation over there, but much of the world is rapidly changing to renewable power stations because they are cheaper, even without incentives."

Compare the co$t per KW in Germany and the USA.

300% more ? in greener Germany

 

[Ski in NC]

Modern natgas power plants using combined cycle run about 60% thermal efficiency. And some elec power does come from nuke, renewable and hydro. A standard gas car engine averages about 20% thermal efficiency. So even counting transmission and batt charging losses, there is a net benefit to going to elec cars when considering efficiency.

Regarding pollution, ecars certainly do move the pollution source from one place to another. But since most plants are in rural areas and most people are in urban areas. Getting the sources of emissions out of the urban areas IS a net positive.

Techies joke that "the solution to pollution is dilution". But there really is some truth in that.

Ecars and hybrids really do fit into most automobile duty cycles. Not all duty cycles certainly, but most. Some improvements in batt tech, charging availability, etc will help close the gap.

The same tech on boats does NOT fit but a few duty cycles. Non starter there.

 

[Pack Mule]

We just traded last week . We went from one extreme to another. We sold our 4 runner and bought a Lexus ct200 f sport hybrid. Basically it's just a souped up Toyota Prius.
Saved a bunch on the note and a lot on fuel. We'll see how it goes.
The 4 Runner was gettin into my rum money

 

[DanVolker]

I have something that might get some interest for those in this thread....I am a partner in a company called Molecular Impact Energy....and we are in our 2nd generation prototype phase of an engine that runs on saltwater to produce electricity. The 2nd gen prototype will be completed in about 6 weeks..figure in early June there will be media hype as we invite a couple dozen major Yacht companies and electric motor companies like Torqueedo and others on the cutting edge. This 2nd gen prototype will be totally self sustaining and will be coupled to a turbine to put out about 20kW....."After" this we will do one to put out about 500HP, for something like a GreenLine Yacht.

 

[denverd0n]

"Runs on saltwater." As in, saltwater is the fuel? If you have actually found a way around the first law of thermodynamics, I will expect to see you receiving a Nobel prize this year. In fact, it should already be front-page news in every scientific journal in the world.


But, of course, we all know that you haven't. Saltwater is NOT a fuel. So what is actually running your engine? Smoke and mirrors, perhaps?

 

[GH41]

Second necro thread he has brought back to life today.

 

[DanVolker]

"Runs on saltwater." As in, saltwater is the fuel? If you have actually found a way around the first law of thermodynamics, I will expect to see you receiving a Nobel prize this year. In fact, it should already be front-page news in every scientific journal in the world.


But, of course, we all know that you haven't. Saltwater is NOT a fuel. So what is actually running your engine? Smoke and mirrors, perhaps?

Not to worry, we will have some very big engineers at our unveiling at the Satech Campus of FAU where we are assembling this.

Heated saltwater is injected at 22,000 psi into impact chambers ( think cylinders) through a nozzle that creates nano-bubbles...The "magic" is the cavitation implosions occurring when the bubbles hit the side of the impact chamber and release enormous kinetic energy and heat over 5 thousand degrees kelvin ( at the point source of the nano bubbles). The plasma steam averages down in temperature based on our injection volume and the much larger volume of the chamber, so the average temp inside the chamber is closer to 500 degrees F , with an average pressure of 900 psi. A pressure relief valve keeps the pressure this high, and after rising to this level it is channeled to a custom steam turbine and generator. We already proved this in 2014, and when I got involved 6 months ago, I brought investment cash, and more FAU engineers...and some brilliant Turbine engineers. This is happening....it will be big news...and there will he Yacht companies at our unveiling that will be buying our engines. One of the next steps after this 2nd gen prototype, will be my buying a 40 foot Greenline Yacht without the diesel or solar, and dropping our MIE engine into it. You don't have to believe it until you see me running around south Florida on a 40 foot yacht that runs on saltwater and has zero fuel cost.

 

[GH41]

I'll help him out. If it was real the petrochemical lobby would have already shut it down. Concept video>>

 

[GH41]

Not to worry, we will have some very big engineers at our unveiling at the Satech Campus of FAU where we are assembling this.

Heated saltwater is injected at 22,000 psi into impact chambers ( think cylinders) through a nozzle that creates nano-bubbles...The "magic" is the cavitation implosions occurring when the bubbles hit the side of the impact chamber and release enormous kinetic energy and heat over 5 thousand degrees kelvin ( at the point source of the nano bubbles). The plasma steam averages down in temperature based on our injection volume and the much larger volume of the chamber, so the average temp inside the chamber is closer to 500 degrees F , with an average pressure of 900 psi. A pressure relief valve keeps the pressure this high, and after rising to this level it is channeled to a custom steam turbine and generator. We already proved this in 2014, and when I got involved 6 months ago, I brought investment cash, and more FAU engineers...and some brilliant Turbine engineers. This is happening....it will be big news...and there will he Yacht companies at our unveiling that will be buying our engines. One of the next steps after this 2nd gen prototype, will be my buying a 40 foot Greenline Yacht without the diesel or solar, and dropping our MIE engine into it. You don't have to believe it until you see me running around south Florida on a 40 foot yacht that runs on saltwater and has zero fuel cost.

How do build the pressure to 22,000 PSI? Maybe a hand pump.