Set up a bridle or lay out more scope?

[mdstrum]

For use we did not use a snubber, and start two the a few years back it helps alot I feel in So Calif (Catalina) and on trip last year down baja to La Paz, as other have shared it changes that angles and reduces leverage on our boat by 7-10' and spreads the load to 2 cleats. It lowers the swing as well ...mantis is one we got and find it quick to deploy and retrive.

 

[Bryant]

Bridle

I typically use a Mantus anchor bridle, two lines that attach to the bow cleats.

Last weekend I just secured the rode to the sampson post to take the load off the windlass.

I have a Mantus 45lb anchor. I use a Mantus bridle and I use a snubber attached to a 1 inch line to remove all strain from the windlass. With this system I can let out 80' of chain and lift the chain lying on my bow pulpit up and down with one hand. FYI. Mantus now has a really heavy chain Chain Grabber in various sizes that is perfect to use with a snubber. I just got mine. If I still have a boat after Hurricane Sally I'm going to try it out next week.

 

[OldDan1943]

If I still have a boat after Hurricane Sally I'm going to try it out next week.

Good luck with Sally. Above all, stay safe!!

 

[Tom-Smith]

Jeremy,
can you provide pictures or a web site to go to to see a simple rolling hitch?
Thanks

 

[mvweebles]

Good article from BoatUS on Rolling Hitch and two variants that hold better (I vow to learn the Icicle Hitch!!).


https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2013/june/get-a-grip.asp


Peter

 

[Capt Dan]

Bridles work to dampen yaw. Fine tuning can be made by adjusting bridle length. Longer is better to a certain extent. The wider apart the better also.
Did you ever see a tug towing a barge without a bridle at the bow of the barge? Without the bridle the barge will yaw terribly

Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle before you can slack out more rode. Picture this; a storm comes up unexpectedly at night and it has quickly become quite choppy. And it’s dark. And you haven’t trained your mate properly in all these circumstances.

Oh, and don’t forget that you are a year older, out of shape and overweight!

I find it much easier to have chain only as long as I normally need as minimum for anchoring, in other words I have 60 feet of chain Then nylon three strand, because I rarely anchor in less than 5 feet of water at low tide.. at high tide the depth is 15 And sixty feet of chain and 5 to 10 feet of nylon Is just about right. If I’m in deeper water than that my built in snubber just gets longer.

Also you should read about the hazards of having all chain in storm conditions. Not good. You may think the catenary caused by the weight of the chain sufficient to be a shock absorber, but reality proves that to not be the case.

 

[wkearney99]

Jeremy,
can you provide pictures or a web site to go to to see a simple rolling hitch?
Thanks

For a rolling hitch, and more:

https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/rolling-hitch

The animated sequences help clarify how to make the knots.

 

[wkearney99]

Bridles work to dampen yaw. Fine tuning can be made by adjusting bridle length.
Did you ever see a tug towing a barge without a bridle at the bow of the barge?

Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle. Picture a storm comes up unexpectedly at night and it has quickly become quite sharply. And it’s dark. And you haven’t trained your mate properly in all these circumstances.

Oh, and don’t forget that you are a year older, out of shape and overweight!

I find it much easier to have chain only as long as I normally need as minimum for anchoring, in other words I have 60 feet of chain Then nylon three strand, because I rarely anchor in less than 5 feet of water at low tide.. at high tide the depth is 15 And sixty feet of chain and 5 to 10 feet of nylon Is just about right. If I’m in deeper water than that my built in snubber just gets longer.

Also you should read about the hazards of having all chain in storm conditions. Not good. You may think the catenary caused by the weight of the chain sufficient to be a shock absorber, but reality proves that to not be the case.

Well, for towing a bridle does more to spread the towing load than specifically just for the yaw.

If conditions come up that require suddenly letting out chain, no problem, leave the bridle on there and retrieve it when better conditions return. I can readily fashion another with a rolling hitch and a line. But then I tend not to go for overnight with anything less than a 5:1 scope which should be more than adequate for any likely forecasted conditions.

I'm always skeptical when someone running one style of rig looks for specific bad situations to justify not using others. Anchoring is rife with that sort of sensationalizing.

 

[rgano]

Also you should read about the hazards of having all chain in storm conditions. Not good. You may think the catenary caused by the weight of the chain sufficient to be a shock absorber, but reality proves that to not be the case.

You speak of the use of bridles and snubbers and then pooh pooh all-chain rode in storm conditions. I assume you meant all-chain without appropriate snubbing. Multiple big snubbers/bridle with chain to me is the best of both worlds in a storm.

 

[Frosty]

(I vow to learn the Icicle Hitch!!).

I haven't exactly "learned" it (meaning I have to look in Rigger's Apprentice each time I tie one ) but that is one sticky hitch! I used it to hold hammock lines onto stainless shrouds (where it would have been most unpleasant if they had slipped) and they never budged. You probably could hang one from an icicle with it :lol:

 

[Frosty]

Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle before you can slack out more rode. Picture this; a storm comes up .

I don't like this "feature" either, but I have mostly solved for it. I have a snubber much longer than necessary (exact length dependent on boat), and I only let out the usual amount of snubber line when anchoring. Snubber comes up on deck. For 95% of those middle of the night times you want to let out more scope, all I need to do is let out more rode along with commensurate amount of snubber. Since my snubbers are (relatively) lighter line, it's not a huge or unwieldy thing.

For the other 5%, I wouldn't have wanted no snubber either, so either way I'd be doing something more radical.

For this reason I don't have my snubber attached to a water level eye, but possibly you could. On one sailboat we used a snatch block out on the bowsprit to run the snubber through (bowsprit on sailboat is very strong as it is part of the rigging) and then back to our deck* In our case that was because it made the boat lie much more quietly, but if there were an appropriate block I suppose one could do this with a block at the water level eye (tho as I think about it, it would live there and be subjected to tons of salt, so maybe nevermind).

(*credit to Lin and Larry Pardey for that method)

 

[Capt Dan]

”””Well, for towing a bridle does more to spread the towing load than specifically just for the yaw. (QUOTE)

Sorry, I have to take issue with that. If you’ve ever towed a barge without a bridle you’ll know that it is a necessity. It would be a very rare barge that will tow straight without it. And if the bridle is “more” for spreading the load, how is it that it only appears on one end of the hawser? Is the “load” at the barge end of the hawser different from the towing vessel end where it has a single attachment point?

(QUOTE)If conditions come up that require suddenly letting out chain, no problem, leave the bridle on there and retrieve it when better conditions return. I can readily fashion another with a rolling hitch and a line. (QUOTE)

All I’m saying is that I prefer an anchor tackle that I can adjust, in or out, without encumbrances, that’s all. And that more often than not, when these adjustments need to be made the conditions are to say the least, not good. And as I said before, it is night time, it is windy, it is choppy, dark, we’re older, out of shape and overweight.

(QUOTE)But then I tend not to go for overnight with anything less than a 5:1 scope which should be more than adequate for any likely forecasted conditions.(QUOTE)

I’m only trying to point out that in an emergency a bridle might get in the way. Forecasted conditions are all well and good, but You don’t have to boat for long before you look up and say, “Wow, that wasn’t in the forecast!”.

(QUOTE)I'm always skeptical when someone running one style of rig looks for specific bad situations to justify not using others. Anchoring is rife with that sort of sensationalizing.

That is exactly what I’m pointing out, a specific “bad situation” to justify why I don’t use a certain Rig.

I didn’t realize I was sensationalizing, just pointing out , in my opinion, flaws in a system. Not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone.

I don’t blame anyone for being skeptical of people’s views that show up on forums, you really have to read between the lines to separate the wheat from the chaff, and even then it is sometimes hard.

Dan

 

[mickand]

I've used a Mantus bridle for years, it lives out on the foredeck and looks as good as new. I sleep in the v berth and the big thing for me is it stops all the creaks from the chain moving around in the pulpit rollers.

 

[OldDan1943]

That is exactly what I’m pointing out, a specific “bad situation” to justify why I don’t use a certain Rig.

I didn’t realize I was sensationalizing, just pointing out , in my opinion, flaws in a system. Not trying to get into a pissing contest with anyone.

I don’t blame anyone for being skeptical of people’s views that show up on forums, you really have to read between the lines to separate the wheat from the chaff, and even then it is sometimes hard.

Dan

Dan, maybe I misunderstand the philosophy of a bridle. To me, the bridle is designed to spread the load over 2 points (cleats). What the operator attaches to the bridle is his decision.

 

[Capt Dan]

Dan, maybe I misunderstand the philosophy of a bridle. To me, the bridle is designed to spread the load over 2 points (cleats). What the operator attaches to the bridle is his decision.

Dan, I think a bridle can have many functions,

Number one, it is a hybrid of a single snubber, so

1. Snubber- to take some shock load out of an all chain rode

2. Safety- having two lines instead of one

3. Two points of attachment. But keep in mind that each must be as strong as the anchor gear, because each will carry the full load some of the time.

3. yaw relief- in normal use the two leads of the bridle are spread apart as much as possible (where the connect to the boat) and equal length. When the boat is directly in line with the anchor rode, both carry the load. As soon as the boat starts to yaw, the outboard pennant starts to take the majority of the strain and as soon as it does it try’s to pull the bow back straight. So when the bow tends to Starboard the Starboard pennant comes under strain and pulls the bow back towards the anchor. Of course the wider the bow the better. Most sailboats get little effect due to narrow bow. Trawlers much more bluff forward so two part bridle can be attached much further apart, thus more effective. Catamarans with their wide beam can get great effect . Conversely, that progression of boat designs each seem to “need” a bridle more and more.

Do you suppose there has been some confusion in this thread over the distinction between snubber and bridle. There is some overlap. Maybe we should call a bridle a “2-part bridle”.?

Dan

 

[OldDan1943]

Dan, I think a bridle can have many functions,

Number one, it is a hybrid of a single snubber, so

1. Snubber- to take some shock load out of an all chain rode

2. Safety- having two lines instead of one

3. Two points of attachment. But keep in mind that each must be as strong as the anchor gear, because each will carry the full load some of the time.

3. yaw relief- in normal use the two leads of the bridle are spread apart as much as possible (where the connect to the boat) and equal length. When the boat is directly in line with the anchor rode, both carry the load. As soon as the boat starts to yaw, the outboard pennant starts to take the majority of the strain and as soon as it does it try’s to pull the bow back straight. So when the bow tends to Starboard the Starboard pennant comes under strain and pulls the bow back towards the anchor. Of course the wider the bow the better. Most sailboats get little effect due to narrow bow. Trawlers much more bluff forward so two part bridle can be attached much further apart, thus more effective. Catamarans with their wide beam can get great effect . Conversely, that progression of boat designs each seem to “need” a bridle more and more.

Do you suppose there has been some confusion in this thread over the distinction between snubber and bridle. There is some overlap. Maybe we should call a bridle a “2-part bridle”.?

Dan

#4 bridle for towing.... keeping the towed vessel centered to the towing vessel.

Per a snubber, yup reduce the shock of an all chain rode. The same for the bridle.

I have yet to see a capstan or wench designed to absorb the shock associated with riding on just the anchor rode. The snubber or bridle will spread these forces to a deck cleat or in the case of a bridle, between two deck cleats.

 

[psneeld]

Bridles work to dampen yaw. Fine tuning can be made by adjusting bridle length. Longer is better to a certain extent. The wider apart the better also.
Did you ever see a tug towing a barge without a bridle at the bow of the barge? Without the bridle the barge will yaw terribly

Both bridle and snubber, or better said “either” will also almost eliminate “chain rattle” from an all chain rode, especially on hard or rocky bottom.

Problem with one or the other is the occasional (or inevitable) need to let out more scope. In that case, you will need to bring anchor rode in and un-attach the snubber or bridle before you can slack out more rode. Picture this; a storm comes up unexpectedly at night and it has quickly become quite choppy. And it’s dark. And you haven’t trained your mate properly in all these circumstances.

Oh, and don’t forget that you are a year older, out of shape and overweight!

I find it much easier to have chain only as long as I normally need as minimum for anchoring, in other words I have 60 feet of chain Then nylon three strand, because I rarely anchor in less than 5 feet of water at low tide.. at high tide the depth is 15 And sixty feet of chain and 5 to 10 feet of nylon Is just about right. If I’m in deeper water than that my built in snubber just gets longer.

Also you should read about the hazards of having all chain in storm conditions. Not good. You may think the catenary caused by the weight of the chain sufficient to be a shock absorber, but reality proves that to not be the case.

I have towed many objects including barges without bridles...it just depends.

I also dont use bridles when anchoring. I use a single snubber. IF I need to let out more scope, the is more snubbed to let out too. If that gets too short, tie on another snubbed and let the other just go.

You have your opinions, but they are not universal.

As for windlasses taking a load...there sometimes is a pawl that eliminates gear loading. If the windlass is secure, direct pull is jerky but not necessarily any weaker than other parts of anchor tackle.

 

[Capt Dan]

OMG, that’s between 6 and 7 posts per day!

 

[psneeld]

Whats that in reference to?

If it is about my number of posts.....you don't know anything about me so tread lightly if you are going there.

 

[koliver]

OMG, that’s between 6 and 7 posts per day!

So now I need to read this forum more thoroughly every day, because I get a gem of knowledge from at least a couple of PSN posts every day.

 

[RobertLeatch]

I agree with Frosty - vast majority of hawse hole arrangements I've seen appear to increase chafe, not decrease it. It looks shippy, but I think there's a penalty paid in functionality. Plus they are awkward to use. The hawse pipes with integral cleats (an ear on each side) are probably less chafe prone, but do not hold a hitch well because the line does not cross over itself across a cleat which is where much of the strength of a cleat hitch comes from.

The worst arrangement are fairleads over the caprail to an inboard cleat. Many sailboats have a large single cleat in the foredeck with fairleads near the stem. It looks nice, but I can think of no arrangement more prone to chafe.

I personally like large cleats mounted atop a caprail. They are super easy to use when docking and strong. They don't have the cool-look that hawse pipes do, but they work.

Peter

I know this thread has moved on a bit from here, but on the subject of a cleat hitch not working very well on a hawse hole with ears each side...is there actually a recommended knot for this situation that holds well and minimises chafing.

 

[mvweebles]

I know this thread has moved on a bit from here, but on the subject of a cleat hitch not working very well on a hawse hole with ears each side...is there actually a recommended knot for this situation that holds well and minimises chafing.

For an anchor snubber, use a long dockline with the loop end over the cleat horns. The loop will pass through the hawse pipe and distribute chafe well. Often, the longest dockline on a boat are smaller diameter spring lines with some elasticity which is ideal for this application.

For docking, if you have hawse pipes with integral cleat horns but no bar connecting them, best I can think of is to use larger diameter lines where you need to have adjustability of the dockline aboard the boat vs on the dock. Large diameter lines do okay on bollards and such. For springlines (smaller diameter and more elastic), use the loop end on the cleat if possible.

Other ideas?

 

[RobertLeatch]

For the anchor situation, I do use the approach of a loop over the hawse ears and that works very well. For dock lines I like the loop around the dock cleat so have the issue of what to do on the boat. Was wondering if attaching the dock line (typical 3 strand nylon) to a short length of (for example Dyneema) that had a loop might allow me to have a loop at the hawse hole. Perhaps joined via one of the thick rubber snubber arrangements that seem common nowadays.

 

[Kiwi.]

I have both, a bridle (two lines with a Mantus hook) and a snubber (one line). 99% of the time we use the bridle as it's a much lighter line giving more stretch (quiet with no jerks) and it holds the boat straight as we cleat it to the two forward cleats that are about 6 feet apart. We also often connect the bridle to different cleats on the boat; so if there's a swell sneaking around the point into our anchorage we might attach one line of the bridle to our mid-ship cleats to turn the boat sideways to be bow or stern into the swell. It's a longer and much lighter rope bridle than I would have as main rope anchor warp. If my bridle is cut by some coral the chain takes over the job of keeping us there. If the wind blows up during the night I simply attach my snubber line (much stronger) to both ends of the double bridle (then working as one line) and let out as much chain and snubber as I like. Simple and easy.
I have nice roller hawse pipes on the bow so I don't have a chafe issue on this ship, in the past I haven't been so lucky. I have had both chafe and coral cut through a bridle before but the chain just takes over the job and wakes me up with the grinding and jerking.
In Northern Australia and the South Pacific I could not sleep without an all chain rode holding us to the bottom. Coral cuts through any rope like a hot knife through butter. So a bridle and/or snubber give comfort, and the chain gives security.

 

[Caballero II]

For use we did not use a snubber, and start two the a few years back it helps alot I feel in So Calif (Catalina) and on trip last year down baja to La Paz, as other have shared it changes that angles and reduces leverage on our boat by 7-10' and spreads the load to 2 cleats. It lowers the swing as well ...mantis is one we got and find it quick to deploy and retrive.

What????

 

[jclays]

That should be fine so long as you're okay with so much scope. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the only reason for a bridle in that case would be if you needed to try and modify the orientation of the boat relative to the anchor line.

Scope is perfect at roughly 7:1

 

[jclays]

markpierce I was in 30 feet of water plus 5 feet to the roller equals less than 7:1. How much scope would you recommend with 25-30 knot wind?

There were over 50 boats in the anchorage and I wasn't swinging more than anyone near me. I use a stern anchor if space is limited.

You were fine with your scope. I don't use less than 5:1

 

[Simi 60]

You guys shelling out all that coin for a mantus bridle
You do realize its just nylon rope , a couple of eye splices and a hook

For us, if doing a 1inch, 2 leg at 30ft version its $100 worth of rope and and two cans of beer worth of splicing time.

Mantus charges $560aud just for the rope with splices.
Hook is extra
https://www.mantusmarine.com/product/large-mantus-bridle-universal/

We use a single 1 inch nylon snubber, about 15ft long and a soft shackle
Anchor daily, have seen multiple 50+ knot events, never had an issue
Replace every 18mths or so.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I made mine out of an old dock line the PO left in the lazarette and an old galvanized chain hook I found in the garage. The "eye" that holds the hook was made by sewing it with 100# downrigger Kevlar and then serving the stitching with net twine. No splicing required. Free materials and 15 minutes labor. It might only last 30 years. I'd gladly sell it for $400.

 

[Fletcher500]

markpierce I was in 30 feet of water plus 5 feet to the roller equals less than 7:1. How much scope would you recommend with 25-30 knot wind?

There were over 50 boats in the anchorage and I wasn't swinging more than anyone near me. I use a stern anchor if space is limited.

Some of the posters on here boat in protected waterways so they are not familiar with the current and wind we get at the Channel Islands. I do the same as you, about 7:1 if I can get away with it, but I will do a bit less if there are a lot of boats nearby and I don't want to swing around too much. I use a line attached to the chain with a rolling hitch to take the strain of the windlass (snubber) and if I used my 200 ft of chain, I run the anchor line around the Sampson post. I also swing around quite a bit, but I don’t think a bridal would help that much.