Similar Ships to LRC 58

[Alaskaflyer]

Good point. There are dreams and reality.. I will look more into those brands.



I am familiar with the Diesel Duck, but noticed there was only one aluminum. I dont think I could own steel. The blogs and articles detailing crevice corrosion issues and the constant maintenance of paint is not for me. For those who find joy in paint, you are truly blessed. I despise that kind of labor at this point. I also did not see any in fiberglass, but perhaps this is coming. They certainly are affordable.

I am far from expert in the brand, but I believe Seahorse Marine makes other capable models, in fiberglass. See the one on the JMYS website as an example.

 

[cardude01]

That Steadysailer motorsailor is so interesting to me. A steady 10 knots would be so nice when making longer crossings, and this boat would do that burning only around 4 gph. Plus it has Paravanes when going downwind to stop the roll. Perfect combination imo.

https://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/58STEADYSAILER58.pdf

 

[socalrider]

That Steadysailer motorsailor is so interesting to me. A steady 10 knots would be so nice when making longer crossings, and this boat would do that burning only around 4 gph. Plus it has Paravanes when going downwind to stop the roll. Perfect combination imo.

https://www.chuckpaine.com/pdf/58STEADYSAILER58.pdf

I’d not seen that design - very interesting concept. 7000nm range with 1000g at 10kt is impressive and I love the apparent simplicity. Thanks!

 

[Hippocampus]

Read this with interest.
Nauticats are delightful well made boats. They come in a traditional and updated style. But both are B rated. Know one with a sauna inside and they make great liveaboards but being B rated not the best choice for voyaging imho. You might have difficulty with insurance if that’s your use profile. They are slow.
You might want to read Moby Ducks blog. If he’s to be believed there’s been issues with recent duck builds. Some of what he writes would put me off considering one. They were on our short list but aren’t well stabilized by the sailplan. One duck built in Turkey put in a Seakeeper to get around this but most use fish. Given you need 16’ plus feet to deploy safely and even for a passagemaker the overwhelming majority of your travels are coastal fish are limiting.
There’s a chasing your tail that goes on in small boats. Speed is the major determinant in you time on passage. The slower you go the more you need in stores. The more stores the more weight and space required. Until you go fairly large for both ultralights and multihulls this degrades performance. But has much less effect on full displacement. The Artnautica 58 and even the 65 are very small boats for their size. 58 -#3 has four useful sea berths to my eye and they need to be friendly. With tools, spares, food etc. you might be adding 2 to 3 times the percentage of total displacement when voyaging a narrow light boat or multi c/w the percentage you would be adding to a FD trawler like a Northern or Nordie. This isn’t a insurmountable issue in ~60’ boat but is if much smaller. The percentage of total displacement goes down the larger the boat.
There’s a similar lower limit to size for cats. Given they are totally dependent upon form stability most folks consider anything under ~45’ too small for safe voyaging. Once again the weight of food, stores, tools, spares is fairly fixed until you get to a decent size they’re weight sensitive.
I’ve done passage on multis. The motion is different than monos. Elsewhere I commented on seasickness sensitivity. Some are more sensitive to fast oscillations (multis) some slow (FD). Find out which one is your wife. If she’s sensitive to fast oscillations any form of multi below ~60’ may not be a good choice. I may be clumsy and admittedly my experience is predominantly racing. But I’ve yet to end a multi passage without black and blues on the outside of my thighs and upper arms. Have trouble timing my movements across the open spaces. Still, if I went back to sail it would be on a Rapido 60 or a Outremer. Decent cruising cruising layout, seaworthy and fast.
Believe Steady sailor was built in Maine. I’m a huge fan of Ed Joy. Especially the Al high,lat boats built in South Africa. But I’ve heard scuttlebutt that particular build was nothing but trouble. Surprising given that yard has a great rep. They say motor sailors are neither fish nor fowl so do neither well. Did like the idea of using both always but there’s probably truth to the old saw. Similarly personally not enthusiastic about the Nordie motorsailor. The rig looks unmanageable and the sailing polar deficient.
Nevertheless the Artnautica twin engine twin stateroom 58 clicks my buttons and is just small enough to allow me in the National Park. The Deep Water Korvet 19 a close second. You have good taste. But practically if the wife didn’t convince me otherwise would have waited for a N43 in decent shape. Could coastal cruise with two and do passages with 3 or 4 without hot bunking while keeping to a moderate cruising kitty.

 

[long-cours.62]

7000 nm at 10 kts

I’d not seen that design - very interesting concept. 7000nm range with 1000g at 10kt is impressive and I love the apparent simplicity. Thanks!

with 1000g it seam a lot of optimism...



1000 gallons it is 3785 lt
52feet 15.87 m wl
displacement 22.2 T half load

10kts it is over the hull speed : 9.69 kts for 15.87m


Perkins curve for this characteristics : for 10 kts need 147 hp,
it means 27.34 lt per hour , 3785 lt divided by 27.34 lt/h = 138 hours
or 1380 nm

Volvo curve for this characteristics : for 10 kts need 115cv it means 21.39 lt per hour, 3785 lt divided by 21,39 lt/h = 177 hours or 1769 nm



Average : 1574 nm at 10 kts

 

[Simi 60]

What is the make/model of the "best ocean powercat"?

Honestly?
A custom built Unicorn

Because multis are very weight sensitive you will need to realistically list what you intend to take, cruise speed and range to get an idea of payload requirements
That will then dictate length and engine size

 

[cardude01]

with 1000g it seam a lot of optimism...



1000 gallons it is 3785 lt
52feet 15.87 m wl
displacement 22.2 T half load

10kts it is over the hull speed : 9.69 kts for 15.87m


Perkins curve for this characteristics : for 10 kts need 147 hp,
it means 27.34 lt per hour , 3785 lt divided by 27.34 lt/h = 138 hours
or 1380 nm

Volvo curve for this characteristics : for 10 kts need 115cv it means 21.39 lt per hour, 3785 lt divided by 21,39 lt/h = 177 hours or 1769 nm



Average : 1574 nm at 10 kts

I think the boat has a single Deere 4045dfm engine. I didn’t realize 10 knots was over hull speed so that 10 knots at 4gph does sound optimistic.

 

[CruiserhHeart]

Read this with interest.
Nauticats are delightful well made boats. They come in a traditional and updated style. But both are B rated. Know one with a sauna inside and they make great liveaboards but being B rated not the best choice for voyaging imho. You might have difficulty with insurance if that’s your use profile. They are slow.
You might want to read Moby Ducks blog. If he’s to be believed there’s been issues with recent duck builds. Some of what he writes would put me off considering one. They were on our short list but aren’t well stabilized by the sailplan. One duck built in Turkey put in a Seakeeper to get around this but most use fish. Given you need 16’ plus feet to deploy safely and even for a passagemaker the overwhelming majority of your travels are coastal fish are limiting.
There’s a chasing your tail that goes on in small boats. Speed is the major determinant in you time on passage. The slower you go the more you need in stores. The more stores the more weight and space required. Until you go fairly large for both ultralights and multihulls this degrades performance. But has much less effect on full displacement. The Artnautica 58 and even the 65 are very small boats for their size. 58 -#3 has four useful sea berths to my eye and they need to be friendly. With tools, spares, food etc. you might be adding 2 to 3 times the percentage of total displacement when voyaging a narrow light boat or multi c/w the percentage you would be adding to a FD trawler like a Northern or Nordie. This isn’t a insurmountable issue in ~60’ boat but is if much smaller. The percentage of total displacement goes down the larger the boat.
There’s a similar lower limit to size for cats. Given they are totally dependent upon form stability most folks consider anything under ~45’ too small for safe voyaging. Once again the weight of food, stores, tools, spares is fairly fixed until you get to a decent size they’re weight sensitive.
I’ve done passage on multis. The motion is different than monos. Elsewhere I commented on seasickness sensitivity. Some are more sensitive to fast oscillations (multis) some slow (FD). Find out which one is your wife. If she’s sensitive to fast oscillations any form of multi below ~60’ may not be a good choice. I may be clumsy and admittedly my experience is predominantly racing. But I’ve yet to end a multi passage without black and blues on the outside of my thighs and upper arms. Have trouble timing my movements across the open spaces. Still, if I went back to sail it would be on a Rapido 60 or a Outremer. Decent cruising cruising layout, seaworthy and fast.
Believe Steady sailor was built in Maine. I’m a huge fan of Ed Joy. Especially the Al high,lat boats built in South Africa. But I’ve heard scuttlebutt that particular build was nothing but trouble. Surprising given that yard has a great rep. They say motor sailors are neither fish nor fowl so do neither well. Did like the idea of using both always but there’s probably truth to the old saw. Similarly personally not enthusiastic about the Nordie motorsailor. The rig looks unmanageable and the sailing polar deficient.
Nevertheless the Artnautica twin engine twin stateroom 58 clicks my buttons and is just small enough to allow me in the National Park. The Deep Water Korvet 19 a close second. You have good taste. But practically if the wife didn’t convince me otherwise would have waited for a N43 in decent shape. Could coastal cruise with two and do passages with 3 or 4 without hot bunking while keeping to a moderate cruising kitty.

Much of what your wrote echos my thoughts. The ducks seem to be only made in steel (no thank you) and are relatively slow- but decently efficient. "Ranger" is behemoth. One of my previous posts stated a distaste for "motorsailors" because after sailing an Ovni, which is essentially a 40' dinghy- I could never sail a slug again.



A little current use data regarding weight: which I believe is a bit of a lifestyle choice as light it not plush.



Our Ovni is just about 40' long, 11.6' wide, rated at 8 tons, and weighed in at just over 15,000 pounds loaded up for cruising on the travel lift gauge (not great accuracy- but all I got). We run a big roachy main, fresh headsails and use spinnakers extensively. I cannot abide a poorly sailing sailboat. We make 6-7kn even close hauled punching 6-8ft seas to weather, downwind 8+ pretty easily (sometimes surfing in the teens) and motor at 6.4kn for just barely less than a gallon an hour.

She draws 7ft offshore, but in less than 2 minutes I can pull up the boards and draw less than 2ft, so I can sneak into just about anywhere and surf downhill straight as an arrow.



No generators, no aircon, no electric windlass (awesome manual one), no dive gear (freedivers- but one tank and a hookah hose for emergency in water repair) no 120V appliances or powertools (all 20V tools), LifePO4 batteries... The two most complicated pieces of gear we keep around are the watermaker (less tankage= less weight) and 12V refrigerator. We navigate with a laptop, Ipads, a depth sounder and a compass. We stripped her hull raw and maintain the paint on the cabin top only to reflect the sun. Its a sailing machine and we treat it as such.

I have been building and repairing boats for over a decade and I dont want to fix things when out sailing, especially electrical things, I am supposed to be enjoying myself.



We are looking for an affordable (to me), ocean capable, low maintenance, highly efficient, mechanically stabilized motor vessel- and sadly your right, I really must have good taste because the ones I like are very expensive. haha



Life is full of compromise. Perhaps I should just install stabilizers on dismasted Ovni 58, but thats another one that goes for $800k.. Joking- kinda.

 

[dannc]

I am far from expert in the brand, but I believe Seahorse Marine makes other capable models, in fiberglass. See the one on the JMYS website as an example.

Yes, Seahorse has a fiberglass Seahorse 52. Surprisingly, I just saw one in early November at the marina at Bald Head Island, NC. Saw the pilot house windows from across the marina and said that was an interesting looking boat so we went to get a closer look. As we got closer, I went from wondering if it was a Seahorse 52 to being surprised it was a Seahorse 52. :lol:

Later,
Dan

 

[CruiserhHeart]

Honestly?
A custom built Unicorn

Because multis are very weight sensitive you will need to realistically list what you intend to take, cruise speed and range to get an idea of payload requirements
That will then dictate length and engine size

"Darkside" specifically said:

"Perhaps the best ocean powercat was on the market, at a very attractive price, for what 4 years? Awesome boat, but not many people have plans that actually need a boat like that."


So I wondered what, to him, was the best ocean powercat.. He did have an all aluminum powercat in his profile picture- a good sign in my book.

 

[dannc]

Much of what your wrote echos my thoughts. The ducks seem to be only made in steel (no thank you) and are relatively slow- but decently efficient. "Ranger" is behemoth. One of my previous posts stated a distaste for "motorsailors" because after sailing an Ovni, which is essentially a 40' dinghy- I could never sail a slug again.
...

I think there are Motorsailors and then there are motorSailers.

The Diesel Ducks were Motorsailors. Buehler's sail rig was designed to get you home if the engine went out. The rig was limited in what it could do by design and act as stabilization. Some owners put ketch rigs on the Ducks, which made them better sailing boats, but the Ducks were still a motor boat that could use sail power to some degree.

However, one of the ketch rigged Ducks did have engine problems and sailed into port.

Ed Joy's Ranger looks to me to be a mashup of a Diesel Duck and an LRC 58. I like it but it sure is not a sail boat but a motor boat that has augmented range and speed from sail as well as stabilization. Just like the Ducks.

From Ed's description, https://www.edjoydesign.com/ranger,

A true motorsailer, Ranger is normally operated with the engine running and the compact sailing rig providing both an assist to propulsion as well as effective roll stabilization.

Ranger has paravanes, like the Ducks, which looks strange on Ranger but not on the Ducks. Course, that is subjective.

I was working on sketches for an aluminum, 62+ foot long, Diesel Duck, with a Junk Rig, that we wanted to discuss with George at some point but he died before we could talk.

Later,
Dan

 

[darkside]

I was referring to Domino as the best Ocean Powercat. There are others but she is to me the most pure and has the runs on the board. I also got excited about November Rain when she was for sale in Hawaii. In the end too much "fish" and not enough "cruise" for me though.
But I have already done my long distance ocean crossings, my next adventure is around New Zealand.
My profile pic is an alloy Roger Hill 12m displacement cat we have in build with that that trip in mind. I agree with Simi, nothing off the shelf really does what I wanted so I asked Roger to tweak one of his designs.
One of the key features is 12m LOA so I can "flat rack" ship it to wherever suits me best.
The PNW springs to mind. As does Tahiti then "hop" through some of our old haunts in the Cooks, Niue, Tonga, Fiji, Vanuatu, New Caledonia and on to Australia. All easily achievable in the new build.
Will it be expensive to ship? Sure. But we get to leave most of the design compromises required to achieve true long range ocean crossing ability.

 

[long-cours.62]

I thinks our

Much of what your wrote echos my thoughts. The ducks seem to be only made in steel (no thank you) and are ron dismasted Ovni 58, but thats another one that goes for $800k.. Joking- kinda.

former Long-Cours. 62 would suit near all our requirements:
moderate consumption,

not too large , moderate draft, not too heavy 32t full really full with hundred kg of tools even 120kgs MIG welding, small mast, to dagger board, long range at 7 kts in theoretic (empty all diesel, no contrary wind and current etc ) 9000 nm

First when we ask to Joubert in 1993 we asked for a motor sailor and later in 1995 after he made the hull line we design the deck, arrangement, structure plan we decide to only make a motor passage maker...
But we put pillar, chain plate,dagger board, ballast "in case" and put a small mast (8m 9kgs/m).

Unfortunately we sold her ... And my wife say we are now too old to built a new one...
If we built a new one she will be little smaller 17.999m but with a vertical bow the lwl will be only1' shorter, lighter by 4000kgs ( by lowering the salon, tank etc we lowered the center of gravity and could save some ballast, save weight on arrangement etc)...
finally we arrive at a boat of 17.99 deck length, 17.70 lwl, beam 4.70, draft 1.10 maxi, air draft 3.10, weight 28.5T, one engine with get home, small mast like our former one. the D/L will be even smaller 143 vs 148.


Probably for one couple we chose this model
Hoa II tel que je l'imaginais ! - Trawler long-cours


After hesitate between all this possibilities



Un Compromis, oui mais lequel !? - Trawler long-cours


May be if we can sold our actual I will decide my wife to , at less, finish a hull built by a boat yard.
Or the easiest built one similar of the original designed 28 year ago

19.165lad lwl 18.26 beam 5.03 draft 1.30 air draft 3.18 save some weight save 2T. only one engine less all mistake we have listed

Evolutions (faites ou à faire si N°2) - Trawler long-cours

 

[Large Marge]

re -- FPB
.
According to designers wife and husband team Linda and Steve Dashew, 'FPB' stands for 'Fast Passage Boat'.
In theory, the FPB line is engineered to maintain at least a 12kn cruise to skirt uncomfortable weather.
The solitary example of the 97 -- finished length around 130' -- is alleged to maintain a 14kn cruise.
.
And according to everything I read about the series, they are stabilized with active fins.
With massive constant-duty engine-mounted alternators plus massive photovoltaic fields feeding a massive battery bank, the fins are on-duty 24/7/360°.
.
One awed reporter described stopping for supper during an open-ocean test-drive.
With the engines off, and the yacht sipping juice from the bank to feed the all-electric galley, the vessel was (apparently) absolutely stable.
.
*****
.
Also in the 130' range, catamaran yacht 'SILVER CLOUD' uses SWATH to eliminate the wife's nausea.
In SWATH ships, the submerged hulls ride in a stable zone a few feet below the waves.
I believe Silver Cloud and SWATH in general have no need for active stabilization; the submerged hulls use that boundary layer as a cushion.
.
A helicopter video demonstration of two North Atlantic side-by-side ships, one traditional and one SWATH, shows the poor traditional beating the crew half-to-death while the SWATH crew place wine-glasses on the counters with zero-zero-zero slide.
.
https://youtu.be/IVHI-NYFQt4
.
As I understand it, Silver Cloud was built by Abeking and Rasmussen, the producers of the video.
https://youtu.be/hNc2N-MPijY
.
.
Offered merely for education; these yachts are out of my budget, too.

 

[mporter]

The "Live-Anywhere" boat Barbara

We have been cruising this boat for about 16 years -- Maine to Caribbean, and a couple of years in the European canals and rivers, and the Baltic. Just under 20 m., burns 2 gal/hr at 7.2 knots.

 

[dannc]

We have been cruising this boat for about 16 years -- Maine to Caribbean, and a couple of years in the European canals and rivers, and the Baltic. Just under 20 m., burns 2 gal/hr at 7.2 knots.

Who is the designer and builder of the boat?

Interesting boat that fits this discussion.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[mporter]

The boat is my design -- more information at Michael Porter, Marine Design. She was built by Lyman-Morse to the stage where she was driveable, then I finished off the interior.

 

[long-cours.62]

Hello

The boat is my design -- more information at Michael Porter, Marine Design. She was built by Lyman-Morse to the stage where she was driveable, then I finished off the interior.

Did you still own this boat ? Is she potentially for sale ? Air draft is how much ?

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Cool, cool boat. More here: Michael Porter, Marine Design -Live & Work Anywhere

 

[long-cours.62]

Smallest French Canals

When we made the drawing of our "Long-Cours.62" in 1994 for we contacted

the canal company to get the drawing of the smallest bridge on "Canal du Midi" and after that made the drawing of our wheelhouse..
Not too much gap :lol:
The top of the roof is 3.18 m above wl in sea water


MPorter I presume your boat is

little heavier than our ? (our is 32T full loaded) because same wl, your is little more narrow but she need little more go at 7.2 kts 1.05lt per nm
our at 7.4 kts 0.91 lt per nm.


Interesting boat for voyaging , did she cross Atlantic on her own bottom ?

 

[dannc]

The boat is my design -- more information at Michael Porter, Marine Design. She was built by Lyman-Morse to the stage where she was driveable, then I finished off the interior.

Thanks! I remember reading about your boat in the past. As understanding as my wife is, I don't think I could get her to travel on a partly finished boat!

Going to have to go back and study your boat plans.

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

re -- FPB
.
According to designers wife and husband team Linda and Steve Dashew, 'FPB' stands for 'Fast Passage Boat'....

Fast Passage Boat is the G rated version of the name. The Dashew's were avid sailors and the idea of going to a power boat did not sit well with at least him. The F in FPB really was another F word.

Steve has mentioned this in some of his writing here and there.

Later,
Dan

 

[thataway]

I have not seen any mention of "Idlewild". She is 55', 30,000# displacement, 1000 gallons of fuel, gave 5,000 mile range. 11' beam draft of 42", 1.3 gallon an hour at 6.5 knots, (7.5 mph). http://https://georgebuehler.com/55-idelwild/. She did a successful circumnavigation from West to East in 329 days.

Here is a history of the shakedown and voyage, including trucking to Alberta and down the Peace River to the Arctic Ocean, Bering sea and NorthWest Passage, and around. http://http://northwestpassage2014.blogspot.com/2014/06/i-remember-mv-idlewild-2005nwp-on.html. There is a book available on the entire voyage. That information used to be on the Internet, but I. believe it has been taken down.

There was another similar boat, which was narrower beam, and used a single Westerbeke 4 108. Also aluminum construction. She was trailered to Pensacola where she was launched. Then went up the East Coast, and crossed to Sweden. There was a second 4-108 sitting in its crate as a "back up" engine. The owner claimed 6 miles per gallon at 6 knots.

I agree with those who feel that in order to resolve your wife's sea sickness issues you probably will need gyro stabilization. My observation is the type of hull may be a major factor in the susceptibility to Mal de Mar. Some are affected by a snappy motion, others by a slow roll.

 

[mporter]

We are getting on and don't use her as much as we used to, so I suppose we would consider selling her.
Ar draft is around 12' -- depends on fuel. Won't fit under the Midi bridge.

Did you still own this boat ? Is she potentially for sale ? Air draft is how much ?

 

[Simi 60]

re -- FPB
.
According to designers wife and husband team Linda and Steve Dashew, 'FPB' stands for 'Fast Passage Boat'.
.

That's one theory but I have not seen them mention it

Originally it was fken power boat and it was mentioned on the set sail website back in the early days
Add:
Whoops dannc beat me to it

 

[long-cours.62]

Idlewild

I have not seen any mention of "Idlewild". She is 55', 30,000# displacement, 1000 gallons of fuel, gave 5,000 mile range. 11' the type of hull may be a major factor in the susceptibility to Mal de Mar. Some are affected by a snappy motion, others by a slow roll.

Made a very nice navigation, but in my point of view she was too "extrem" in their choice the beam is very narrow.
Read the crossing between south Africa to Australia roll was so big they can't eat hot food during near all the crossing



Long time ago a Nederland man made also a circumnavigation on motor boat , single Perkin's but I forgot the name of this man Alzheimer !!...

 

[long-cours.62]

Thanks

We are getting on and don't use her as much as we used to, so I suppose we would consider selling her.
Ar draft is around 12' -- depends on fuel. Won't fit under the Midi bridge.

May be you could give more detail to us on MP ?
Like : thickness of plating, displacement, engine power, volume of diesel tank,
insulation type and thickness, etc etc
The bow look "too voluminous" what is the motion against sea ?



We could be interested by your boat (if one day we can sold our actual )
Of course 12 feet is too much for the "Canal du Midi" but even for lot of another French canal to be "French canal proof' need to be under 3.50 m under 11'6"

 

[long-cours.62]

Some boat like the 58' , Idelwild, our Long-cours 62 , FPB have the advantage to don't "push" tons of water when they pass their hull speed.
Some drawing of for example, on videos of Nederland boat you see they push water AND the bow going down...
example of the bow of Hoa at 11.6kts (hull speed +12%)

 

[Hippocampus]

Truly amazing vessel MP. Wish I knew of her before most recent purchase.

 

[Mako]

The boat is my design -- more information at Michael Porter, Marine Design. She was built by Lyman-Morse to the stage where she was driveable, then I finished off the interior.

Looking at her GA plan she certainly shares characteristics with the Diesel Ducks.

Wondering what did you do for covered outdoor space - did you have a collapsible canvas bimini to cover the aft deck?