Starlink

[rslifkin]

2.5 amps isn't terrible by any means. I'm curious to see if they can get it down even lower over time.

 

[socalrider]

2.5 amps isn't terrible by any means. I'm curious to see if they can get it down even lower over time.

Agree! It's really exciting.

I still don't understand if it works from a moving platform like a boat. I know at least one person has used it on a boat moored at a marina. Does it actually work while these RV'ers are driving, or just once they set up camp?

 

[twistedtree]

I find it really interesting how corporate behavior has come full circle from around 30 years ago. In the early tech days companies would routinely announce grand plans for this or that. And shortly after any competitor announced something, other companies would announce plans for something similar. It's how they kept customers from switching to other suppliers. But they always took much longer than promised, and many never materialized at all. But investors would calculate/project company success based on these announcements, stock prices would rise, people would make money, then reality would set in and stock prices would dive.


The SEC finally cracked down, and any such announcements were considered to be stock manipulations, and forbidden. Afterwards, no tech company would announce a product before it's commercial release was imminent. And more conservative companies wouldn't announce until the produce was shipping out the door. Prior to that, there was complete silence.



A related issue was that even if a product was shipping, you couldn't announce or in any way promise new features in the future. This was never even a consideration until products started having so much software content, and became updateable post-sale. Any form of future capability was similarly considered to be a manipulation to get you to buy a product today rather than buy someone else's, or to delay a purchase.


Remember Enron? Or Storage Networks?


Similarly, after Sorbain-Oxley, accounting rules become more strict. When we were operating in 2001-2008, if you sold a product that did not yet include all the capabilities that you had told customers about, you couldn't recognize revenue on those products. If we has been selling Starlink devices, we probably wouldn't have been able to recognize a significant amount of the sales revenue based on an argument that some portion of the people buying today are doing so in anticipation of one or more of the future capabilities, like taking the device with you to your vacation house, or having connectivity between your house and your boat.


And making public statements about new features, like Musk's texts suggesting that these new features have just been turned on and that everyone is now ready to go with mobile use would probably land you in jail with the SEC.



So, what's old is new, and I'm scratching my head trying to understand why this is once again OK. Maybe there is still some small hope, considering that Elizabeth Holmes got convicted.

 

[FWT]

TwistedTree:

I won't hit Quote to save a few electrons.

"How is this OK?"

You undoubtedly know this but others won't. I'll keep the point brief.

The issue isn't that companies are using screwy accounting to goose their results. The issue is they are required to use screwy accounting. That they are required is an old problem going back decades. And its growing worse.

One of the hot new sectors is streaming entertainment, delivered via hubs directly onto a TV's smart platform or an independent hub like Roku, Amazon, or Google. When a new app / participant is added to the platform the hub has to put a multiyear value of the contract through the income statement based on assumptions of traffic and financial returns. Then periodically reassess and add or subtract income as a result. No one likes it. And it makes analysis of how are they doing impossible for the mere mortal. Which puts reliance on the analysts to make that analysis for investors which is always a bad idea. Yeah its nuts but its required.

For decades banks have had to handle expense for additions to the loan loss reserves differently, which is a key expense. The short story is it causes wilder swings in reported earnings. Non-banker investors are unlikely to understand results.

More recently (3 years ago-ish) companies with common stock ownership now have to put appreciation of holdings as income, instead of recognizing gains and losses as they are realized. This creates unstable reported earnings.

The net result is companies don't like any of this, investors don't like any of this, but its all a requirement dictated by the "experts" beholden to no one and without any oversight.

 

[twistedtree]

I'll take your word on the accounting rules in those businesses. I haven't been in any of them so don't know. But in my experience all these rules have come about to counter abuses by various companies along the way. So I'm not convinced is a nefarious plot, and in fact I generally lean the other way. In my experience rules become more complicated and onerous in response to people gaming the system. I think it's good that companies can't recognize revenue on things that they have only partially delivered. It still gets recorded and anyone looking at their financials will see it as deferred income so it's not lost, and you know it's theirs as long as they deliver. In fact they typically already have the cash. So I really think the root of the "problem" of more complex rules is the people who game the system and screw the public The unfortunate reality is that whatever system you set up, people will try to game it, and will succeed to some extent in doing that. Then new rules will plug the loopholes and the game will restart.....


Getting back to Musk and his companies, I greatly admire him for the things he has created and made happen. Very few people do so much. But I'm not a fan of how he conducts himself and his businesses.

 

[socalrider]

Getting back to Musk and his companies, I greatly admire him for the things he has created and made happen. Very few people do so much. But I'm not a fan of how he conducts himself and his businesses.

Keep in mind that Starlink is part of SpaceX, which is privately held.

Revenue recognition is a complex subject for sure, but since we have no idea what Starlink's revenues are, it's not really relevant here.

That said, I agree with your assessment above. Elon's done a lot of stuff that would get a "normal" public company CEO banned from running public companies or worse. The SEC rules are a mess & he enjoys flouting them.

 

[tpbrady]

The problem I had with Elon’s tweet was it probably only applied to Ukraine. The small size of the beams means they can turn features on or off in small geographical areas. Starlink has done some testing in a few areas with mobility, but I haven’t heard that it has been put in general release. Mobile terminals are hard to manage since you have to be sure you have capacity so you don’t compromise fixed users. For example my service could be adversely affected by I84, a large truck, and an RV park all in the same beam. Several posts on Reddit have pegged the number of Starlink users in a single beam as around 300.

Tom

 

[dannc]

The problem I had with Elon’s tweet was it probably only applied to Ukraine...

Tom

But it shows the system has been built so that mobile users are allowed and that it works. Musk has said they want a user base of planes, vehicles and vessels. The technology works, it just is a question of load balancing, and has the number of satellites grows, the number of users can grow. At least to a certain point. Starlink is NOT for urban areas, but from a boat perspective, a cell connection will work in those areas, if Starlink is no allowed to work.

Pretty sure I read last year that the US military was using Starlink in aircraft in an exercise in AK.

Later,
Dan

 

[tpbrady]

Dan

I agree that Starlink can offer a lot on a vessel and probably will in a year or so. The first step will be filing for an MSS license at the FCC, meaning mobile satellite service. When we see that happen then we know he is ready. He also has to do that in every country he intends to operate.

As far as the demonstration in Alaska, Starlink had at the time of the test maybe 10 satellites in polar orbit (it’s reported that 3 are still in operation). It was a very limited test whose purpose was trying to get a DOD development contract. Since then Starlink has launched 51 satellites into a 70 degree inclination. They won’t reach full capability up to ~65 north or so until there are 720 satellites at that inclination. Full polar coverage requires 508 satellites.

Using only a Falcon 9, Starlink gets 50-60 into space at a time. With the new Starship launch platform, Starlink could place upwards of 400 in orbit in one launch. However, a launch failure would be monumental.

 

[CaptTom]

...Using only a Falcon 9, Starlink gets 50-60 into space at a time...

They're down to 48 per launch with the new birds. I think these are the ones which can communicate with each other via laser. The old versions will probably be de-orbited as these new ones come on line, so you can't really count all the current birds toward the "completed" constellation.

There is another launch scheduled for tomorrow morning at 8:45 EST.

 

[FWT]

Starlink in motion, working at 80 mph

 

[socalrider]

Starlink in motion, working at 80 mph

Amazing. Deposit (refundable) placed. My service address is at capacity so no delivery until 2023, but this is looking more and more like a viable option for high speed internet while coastal cruising in the US.

 

[FWT]

Amazing. Deposit (refundable) placed. My service address is at capacity so no delivery until 2023, but this is looking more and more like a viable option for high speed internet while coastal cruising in the US.

Indeed.

That chap did quite a bit of creative engineering to develop a mount. Hopefully we will soon see standard production units that work easily on a boat.

 

[PennBruce]

That is exciting

If roaming is enabled in the USA then using Starlink when at at anchor or visiting a marina is feasible.

Anyone know of a location where Starlink is actually delivering terminals?

Bruce

Starlink in motion, working at 80 mph

 

[socalrider]

Indeed.

That chap did quite a bit of creative engineering to develop a mount. Hopefully we will soon see standard production units that work easily on a boat.

I think he did that engineering to mount it to the top of his car; I think the standard terminal could just be mounted to the rail of a boat without modification.

 

[dannc]

That is exciting

If roaming is enabled in the USA then using Starlink when at at anchor or visiting a marina is feasible.

Anyone know of a location where Starlink is actually delivering terminals?

Bruce

We got our StarLink a month or so ago in central North Carolina. Thank goodness. It has been rock solid with only two times when there was a couple of second delay in loading a webpage. Just amazing to have the speed and reliability compared to DSL and our cell Internet service. The hard part is getting the wire from the dish into the house. Just connecting connecting the cable and starting up the Internet was easy peasy.

The delivery driver had 17 Starlinks on his truck that day, and I heard of other people in my area getting their dishes delivered about the same time, so it sounds like Starlink drop shipped a bunch of orders in a short period of time. We have been on the wait list for 12-13 months.

From what I have read roaming is not yet enabled on US dishes. Roaming is allowed on the dishes sent to the Ukraine.

Later,
Dan

 

[PennBruce]

Service and equipment ordered and paid for.

It seems that my sister-in-law lives in an area where service is available now. Question to be answered is if I can roam with it at my marina.

Bruce

 

[Fletcher500]

Keep us posted please, interested to hear how it goes.

 

[Knot Fast]

Pretty sure that technology has been around for awhile...

 

[Simi 60]

In Oz
Quick scan, seems to be in the last 5 minutes or so.

 

[PennBruce]

Thanks for the video.

Eventually my aft deck will have tubing to support the radar arch when it is dropped. I'm planning on using an adjustable fishing rod holder to mount the StarLink dish to the support.

In the meantime I will use the fishing rod holder to mount the dish on the stern rail. Of course this is subject to change when I actually have hands on the dish early next week.

Bruce

In Oz
Quick scan, seems to be in the last 5 minutes or so.

 

[PennBruce]

My Flat "dish" equipment arrived last Monday and I picked it up today. I did a temporary install at the service location where I had had it delivered. Ten minutes after I pugged the router in I had this:



Then onto Northeastern PA where I live. NEPA is not in a Starlink coverage area. I again set it up and I was able to intermittently connect to Starlink. This demonstrates that you can have connectivity outside of your service cell.

Later this summer Quack Shack will be moving from the Chesapeake to the Hudson River back into Starlink coverage.

There is a Starlink Internet Pipe Adapter available on eBay. This stainless steel adapter clicks into the support leg of the antenna and is threaded to connect with a female NPT coupler. I've order one that I hope will be useful in my installation.

The antenna is shipped with the leg in the stowed position. In service the antenna is horizontal. My initial impression is that the motors in the unit are used to align the phased array antenna with the direction that the tracked satellite is moving. The antenna is surprisingly small.

Bruce

 

[tpbrady]

Bruce,

The typical Starlink operating position is with the long axis of the rectangular antenna oriented N/S with it tilted toward the north. It won’t get to this position until a few minutes after it initially acquires a satellite. While it is operational at that time it’s not done yet with initial setup. The clear sky needed for Starlink to work unobstructed with the current number of satellites seems be an inverted cone angled toward the north. I didn’t put an inclinometer on the antenna, but it appears to be about 25 degrees off horizontal.

Starlink did send me a quick guide on the height of obstructions you needed to clear on the 4 points of the compass, indicating the base of the cone was not round since the angle off the antenna face varied.

Tom

 

[Retriever]

We got Starlink last week in Mexico and are now at anchor on Isla Carmen, posting from Starlink. It's amazingly good.

Whether we're at a dock, underway, or at anchor, it works well. Streaming HD video and browsing the internet are nearly perfect. Voice and video calls are somewhat problematic because it loses connection for ~15 seconds every 5-10 mins. We might be able to improve this by mounting the dish somewhere not obstructed by the mast or pilothouse. I think this might also be a bit better at higher latitudes that have more satellite coverage (like much of the PNW).

Mounting it on a boat is tough since there aren't really any off-the-shelf solutions, but it's working fine now just sitting on the deck.

Nobody knows how long the dish might last in a marine environment or how the motors working overtime when the boat is moving will impact lifespan, but the cost of the hardware is sufficiently low that I'm not too worried. Maybe they'll even have a marine specific antenna one of these days.

Hopefully roaming won't get turned off!

But wow, what a game changer. We're seeing speeds of 100-300mbps down and 20-50 up. Last week we were excited to have a 5mbps wired connection at a marina and were downloading weather forecasts at anchor via Iridium at about 8kbps. Now, for less than the cost of the Peplink LTE router and two LTE data plans, we have so much bandwidth we're acting as a WiFi hotspot for our neighbors in the anchorage. Thank you SpaceX!

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

My son lives in mid-Missouri. He installed a Starlink system. He told us that this system is a game changer. Can't wait for a marine system with tracking.

 

[tpbrady]

Sam,

Thanks for the update from Mexico. I go through short periods of “No signal” on occasion. There is no real pattern to it, sometimes 10 times over 12 hours, sometimes none. They vary from 2 secs to 10 secs sometimes 15 secs. These are not obstructions so my guess it is handoff to a satellite that doesn’t go as planned (routing of data) or handoff to satellite that is not fully operational so it needs to be switched to a different resource on that satellite or a different satellite. These are what makes voice and video chats a problem at times. The other that affects voice and video is jitter, ie variable latency ranging from 30 to 130ms at times. It will be cruising along at 30ms and jump up to 130ms for 10 to 20 secs and then drop back down. That’s not nice to voice and interactive video.

Tom

 

[bowball]

What are the thoughts to mount them?

Do you need to manually adjust the tilt or direction? Or can it be mounted on a mast? Boat deck?

I’ll get one to try it out in British Columbia and Alaska.

Any pro tips?

 

[NoRain]

Any chance the antenna will mount inside an existing satellite TV dome? I’ve got a 24” RayMarine, which is essentially an Intellian, that is pretty much worthless now I’d think. I’d love to mount a StarLink dish inside it. Retains the aesthetics as well as some weather resistance.

 

[MYTraveler]

Sam,

Thanks for the update from Mexico. I go through short periods of “No signal” on occasion. There is no real pattern to it, sometimes 10 times over 12 hours, sometimes none. They vary from 2 secs to 10 secs sometimes 15 secs. These are not obstructions so my guess it is handoff to a satellite that doesn’t go as planned (routing of data) or handoff to satellite that is not fully operational so it needs to be switched to a different resource on that satellite or a different satellite. These are what makes voice and video chats a problem at times. The other that affects voice and video is jitter, ie variable latency ranging from 30 to 130ms at times. It will be cruising along at 30ms and jump up to 130ms for 10 to 20 secs and then drop back down. That’s not nice to voice and interactive video.

Tom

FWIW, at 46N, I have never experienced a signal interruption despite my frequent use for video conferencing, VOIP phone and streaming. (Ironically, DirectTv can't service my location because there isn't a good view of their sats, so all of my video comes through StarLink. At my lattitude, there are always at least 4, usually 6 and sometimes 8 satellites in view, though they are constantly changing so I suspect it isn't the hand off per se that causes the problem but perhaps the momentary unavailability of sats at your lattitude.

 

[tpbrady]

MYTraveler,

I’m at 43N so satellite availability does not seem to be an issue. If you look at this link, Starlink.sx, it shows you the relationship between a given location and available satellites and the gateways that are used. There is a lot of software and control involved when a terminal changes satellites and gateways, especially when they occur at the same time. A changing data path that is not executed correctly when changing satellites or gateways could generate the network error message. If for example the terminal has a slight pointing error modem lock could be delayed a few seconds which would translate to no signal. The small signal interruptions with Starlink are not that different than the drops in cell phone service seen in early networks when changing cell sites.

Tom