Starting to look at a Trawler

[sunchaser]

Look in the barn for a vintage 1957 Chevy convertible with the 283 FI Corvette engine. Very few made and well worth the investment.

 

[roguewave]

SDmike, I did the very same thing as your contemplating doing. Bought a boat from the estate that was on the hard for 2 years or so. No sea trial, no engine run. I don't mind risk as long as I know what risk I'm taking. Price will dictate the degree of risk your willing to take in my opinion. I did a lot of homework to minimize the risk. It turned out fine in my case, tread lightly.

 

[seadogmike]

Thanks guys,

I have decided to steer clear of it. I agree that without a sea trial it would be a big chance that I'm not willing to risk at this time.
The AC/DC systems were on the bottom of my concerns since I am a marine electrician. Not being familiar with diesels I was glad to see the info coming from a few that were familiar with the engines. From a previous post someone mentioned that volvo parts were expensive. I assume that this was compared to others such as A Lehman.
I did talk to the mechanic and he told me a couple things that got me concerned as well.
Just isn't in the cards, so walking away........

 

[koliver]

Mike:

Here is my experience, offered only for what is is worth.

In 2000 I replaced my TMD40 engines with TAMD41s. I sold the old engines privately, to a fisherman who needed them in a great hurry. That hurry meant I had no time to schedule the swap to be done by my trusted mechanic. I was on my own. I scheduled a haulout for a Sunday afternoon and had the swap done by Tuesday afternoon. I was able to get my mechanic to do the startup, just to be sure my installation was correct. The boat was out of the water, so he brought in a garden hose, opened the strainers and, one at a time, put the garden hose into the strainer and turned on the water. some overflowed into the bilge, but when the engine was started, the overflow diminished and water came out of the exhaust, just as if the boat was in the water. He spent a while checking things over, shut the engine down and moved to the second engine. The whole process for both engines took about 1/2 an hour. The engines may have been put in gear, I don't recall, but there is a bypass hose from the heat exchanger that feeds seawater to the shaft log, so that, at least, was getting wet. The outside cutless bearing would not have gotten wet. In any event, no biggie, as everything has worked properly for the next many years.

On buying the 41s, on my mechanic's advice, and because they had 1500 hours on them at the time, I pulled the injectors and sent them in for inspection and, if needed, rebuilding. I think the shop got their instructions messed up, as they missed the inspection and went right to rebuild on all 12 injectors. Also an oil analysis and changed the oil and filter on each, new fuel filters too. Otherwise, new belts, pulled and cleaned the Hxs, checked and replaced hoses as needed, and good to go.

No, I am not a mechanic. Out of necessity, I messed around lots with my cars as a kid, so lost any fear of disassembly then.

 

[seadogmike]

Koliver,
You didn't say why you wanted to do the swap. If they were in running condition , just wondering why the change... more hp?

 

[dhays]

There is some room for negotiation in the price.

There is no way I would pay to move that boat to a suitable location just to do a sea trial.

I think you are looking at this all wrong.... They will not be able to unload this boat in its current situation unless they are essentially giving it away. It simply is not worth much where it sits. I would suggest letting the owners know of the problems in trying to purchase a boat in its current condition and situation. They can't compare this boat to other similar boats that are located in the water.

If I was really interested in this boat, I would make them an incredibly low offer. I would first figure out what the value of that boat in good condition in your home waters. From that, subtract the cost of moving the boat to your home waters, the cost of repairing any flaws that you can see with the boat on the hard, and finally, subtract the cost of a complete repower. If the number you get is above 0, then that is what I would offer. If the number is less than 0, tell them you will take the boat off their hands and move it for them if they pay you that much.

It doesn't sound like there is any way to make this deal fit into what most of us would think of as a typical boat purchase. As you can see, most members here wouldn't consider it. I think it is worth considering if you like the boat and are willing to find that it is in truly terrible shape. If you do as I outline above, your risk is pretty limited (other than time and opportunity costs), but if you get lucky and the engine and running gear just need some TLC and repair, then you have been well rewarded for being willing to take that risk.

 

[Gordon J]

So I am concerned about the requirements to have a engine survey as well. I have been told by two surveyors that engine survey will cost $1000 and all they will do is take oil samples, Mondor engine temperatures, and watch the engines while running. It would seem to me that it would make more sense to take my own samples, monitor the engines as well as temperatures, and if there is an issue during the sea trial then bring in an engine surveyor.

I am looking at buying a 2003 boat with twin Cummins six BTA's with less than 1100 hrs. The owners, both pilots, have Meticulous maintenance records and have done all required services. All services performed by a professional mechanic.

So I am wondering, what I will get out of having a mechanic watch the engines during the sea trial that could be worth $1000. This engine survey seems like good work if you can get it.

Thanks in advance for any insights,

Gordon

 

[BruceK]

.....

I am looking at buying a 2003 boat with twin Cummins six BTA's with less than 1100 hrs. The owners, both pilots, have Meticulous maintenance records and have done all required services. All services performed by a professional mechanic.

So I am wondering, what I will get out of having a mechanic watch the engines during the sea trial that could be worth $1000. This engine survey seems like good work if you can get it.

Gordon

If all you expect of the mechanic is "watch the engines", be your own mechanic, watch them yourself. What if "watching" reveals something indicating further tests and checks, is whatever that is within your knowledge and expertise?
My experience of a mechanical engine survey goes way beyond "watching", and was not the $1000 rip off you imply,he was even present when the boat was lifted and checked the running gear, and he charged nowhere near $1000.
I would not buy without a mechanical survey, but as a buyer, you have a choice.

 

[Gordon J]

Bruce, I did not say that that was all I expected. I was told it that's what I could expect. You have not described to me what was done during your mechanical survey. I was told by Buy an experienced surveyor and broker that was all that I would and could expect. And I am not sure what I will learn from a mechanic looking at the prop shaft and prop that I can't figure out. I'm not trying to be argumentative but trying to figure out what it is they hope to catch it and how they could be worth $1000.I have to say I would be far more concerned if these engines had three or 4000 hours on them that I do with only 1100 hrs.

I was set until today on having an engine survey, but when I learn how little was being done for so much money I figured it was not worth the effort.


Any insights would be appreciated.


Gordon

 

[BandB]

Bruce, I did not say that that was all I expected. I was told it that's what I could expect. You have not described to me what was done during your mechanical survey. I was told by Buy an experienced surveyor and broker that was all that I would and could expect. And I am not sure what I will learn from a mechanic looking at the prop shaft and prop that I can't figure out. I'm not trying to be argumentative but trying to figure out what it is they hope to catch it and how they could be worth $1000.I have to say I would be far more concerned if these engines had three or 4000 hours on them that I do with only 1100 hrs.

I was set until today on having an engine survey, but when I learn how little was being done for so much money I figured it was not worth the effort.


Any insights would be appreciated.


Gordon

Well, all you were told does for me is make me no longer trust the knowledge of the surveyor or the broker and think they're promoting their own agendas. This broker didn't choose your surveyor by any chance did he?

Here's an interesting discussion of engine surveys from Steve D'Antonio. The Art of the Engine Survey | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

Toward the bottom of the page he lists what you should ask for in a survey.

Here is an excellent document on engine surveys with a very comprehensive list of tasks to be done:

http://www.seasidemarinesurveyors.com/uploads/Surveying a Diesel Engine.pdf

 

[Gordon J]

BandB,

Finally. Some actual information about what should be done. I haven't read your links yet but will do so now. Thank you so much for the response. And no, I picked the surveyor after interviewing two of them.

Thanks again Gordon

 

[kulas44]

A few specifics on the Volvo TMD series engines are in order, specifically the 40s and 41s. First is the aftercooler, it has a cast iron bottom that rusts out, major PITA and expensive unless you know the "fix". Next is the main bulkhead electrical connection, these have usually been wired around and jury rigged or removed completely. The raw water pump is ok, until you need another and find that its no longer available (read very expensive). If they have been started with ether the little steel things in the cylinder head (the name alludes me) may be loose, as they are an IDI engine. When one gives up it usually grenades the piston destroying the engine. If has the older dog type non hydraulic gear (trans) they tend to leak raw water inside from the copper cooling pipe. The volvo hydraulic gear is pretty good. The Hurth 630 series is a close fit for replacement. They are good engines as long as you can handle there "finer" points. The truck parts are cheaper than marine parts for major engine components, and they are the same items.

 

[BruceK]

Gordon, how can you know in advance what if anything may present, and whether you will pick up on it? If you are as knowledgeable as a mechanic, no problem.
Is it is more likely a mechanic will pick up on something than you? If "no", you won`t see value in a survey and probably won`t want one. Whatever your choice, I hope it goes well.

 

[koliver]

SDM
My mechanic spoke to me when I was buying belts for the 40s, suggested I could move cheaply from 4500 hr 145hp engines to 1500 hr, 200hp engines. I examined the deal he could give me and went for it.

 

[Art]

I love Tollycraft boats. I do not like Volvo engines (believe that's engine type you stated in early post) due to their repair costs and lack of parts availability. Per say... that the engine or transmission may be at or near breakdown makes the boat "upside down" financially; no matter how great a deal you get. That said... if you get great deal for purchase and all four portions mentioned here turn out to be in OK condition then bully for you. I would not purchase any boat without full sea trial.

 

[ranger58sb]

I have been told by two surveyors that engine survey will cost $1000 and all they will do is take oil samples, Mondor engine temperatures, and watch the engines while running.

The mechanical survey on our current boat was done by the local Cummins distributor folks (we have Cummins engines).

In addition to "watching the engines while running" they assessed water pump, drive belt, alternator, aftercooler and turbo condition; engine mounts and shaft alignment; oil and fuel systems and braces; various potential for fluid leaks; and exhaust components... at rest, and while running both at idle and rated RPM. The survey also included removing all injectors, cylinder compression checks, and valve checks. Plus oil samples.

$829 total for two engines.

-Chris

 

[Gordon J]

After reading what is supposed to be done, as per the documents provided by BandB, I am on the hunt for someone to survey the cummins engines and gensets in the Pompano Beach, FL area.

Thanks BandB for the education.

Gordon

 

[Gordon J]

All,

And as for the surveyor, his name is Steve Snider, also from Pompano. Does anyone have any intel on his work? I got his name from my buyers broker in Virginia. He got it in turn from a broker he knows in Florida.

Gordon

 

[ranger58sb]

After reading what is supposed to be done, as per the documents provided by BandB, I am on the hunt for someone to survey the cummins engines and gensets in the Pompano Beach, FL area.

Call the local Cummins distributor down there...

-Chris

 

[seadogmike]

BandB,

Thanks for those links. It makes sense that a thorough inspection of the engines should include all that is mentioned in the articles. Armed with this information one should be able to validate the abilities of a good diesel mechanic to determine his worthiness.

My guess is that most mechanics as mentioned in the article would fail. Goes back to the saying "you get what you pay for".

I understand a lot more now about what an "engine survey" actually is, and why it would be necessary in the purchase of a vessel.

I am sure that some of the items mentioned in the survey could be done by the owner, but having confidence in the results is where I would be lacking. I can wire a boat top to bottom, but when I start smelling diesel, I loose the confidence necessary to make an informative decision. Given time and working around them when the time comes, I am sure that I could learn enough about them to maintain and service them on just about anything short of a rebuild.

I am an engineer, so for me most often things have to be precise in order for me to accept them with confidence, but I do see some grey areas in the mechanics of it all. Call it anal or type-A, it's just the way I see it.

The article and information was very valuable. Not only to myself, but apparently to others as well.

 

[koliver]

SDM

My boat was built for a airline pilot (he managed to get to Taiwan a few times during the build), sold to a Thoracic surgeon and finally sold to another airline pilot before I got it. All notoriously anal personality types, you would think. The wiring, however, was a rats nest of additions and all the old wiring was left in place, making further additions a real pain. Mechanically, however, all depended on competent outside mechanics to maintain the boat is top running condition. I found out the history of ownership before I decided to buy it, so relaxed a bit about the need for an engine survey. Without a history, checking the mechanicals out is more risky, so if your expertise is elsewhere, a survey is usually a necessity.