Steering systems

[ronobrien]

I am refitting my 1973 GB36. I am removing the cable steering as several components are worn. I am hearing various suggestions for hydraulic steering and for power steering. I am interested in anyones experience with either to hopefully help me in my decision making. Thank you.

 

[Mako]

I'll chime in. Cable steering is wonderfully reliable and low maintenance and a lot cheaper to repair than to replace with hydraulic. Plus you're probably at 3 turns lock to lock, which is ideal.

Hydraulic will likely give your boat better resale (less time on market, but probably not a lot more money) as it is more modern. Easier to fit an autopilot if don't already have one. You will probably go to 6+ turns lock to lock, so you may wish to increase the diameter of your steering wheel and try to get it back down to 3-4 turns LTL.

Forget, absolutely forget, about power steering.

 

[sean9c]

I'm sort of with Mako. The likely the easiest thing to do is just overhaul your existing cable steering. It is simple and reliable.
If you go to hydraulic steering it is easier to add an autopilot but the swap is a fair bit of work. You're figuring at the tiller arm and cylinder mount for the steering cylinder and a path to run the hydraulic lines. I'm sure that lots of GB's have been converted so there will be lots of advise available.
I'm not sure what Mako has against power steering. Unless you really want it swapping to it is a bunch more work than going to just manual hydraulic steering since you're also adding a likely engine driven hydraulic pump and even more plumbing. Power steering is likely overkill on the GB36.
I've always wanted to try power steering. The largest number of small boat users seem to be lobster boats in ME and that area. Figured if I was going to try it I'd start by first talking to someone like these guys https://marine-hydraulic-engineering.com/ they do a lot of it.
IMO, I'd try and stick with your cable steering

 

[ronobrien]

I'm sort of with Mako. The likely the easiest thing to do is just overhaul your existing cable steering. It is simple and reliable.
If you go to hydraulic steering it is easier to add an autopilot but the swap is a fair bit of work. You're figuring at the tiller arm and cylinder mount for the steering cylinder and a path to run the hydraulic lines. I'm sure that lots of GB's have been converted so there will be lots of advise available.
I'm not sure what Mako has against power steering. Unless you really want it swapping to it is a bunch more work than going to just manual hydraulic steering since you're also adding a likely engine driven hydraulic pump and even more plumbing. Power steering is likely overkill on the GB36.
I've always wanted to try power steering. The largest number of small boat users seem to be lobster boats in ME and that area. Figured if I was going to try it I'd start by first talking to someone like these guys https://marine-hydraulic-engineering.com/ they do a lot of it.
IMO, I'd try and stick with your cable steering

A better explanation of what I am doing might be in order. I have the entire aft stateroom, head, & lazzarette bulkheads gutted to the hull. So access is not a problem right now. I plan to run conduits for plumbing, electrical, etc from the engine room to the lazzarette for any installations now and in the future. I will be doing coastwise cruising in spring and fall, so autopilot is a must. In addition to any other advantages hydraulic steering offers, I like that hoses can be run through conduit and not have to be "line of sight" as the cables would. Any service on the system could happen simply by pulling hose out of the conduit and new ones run. I also do steel & aluminum fabrication so any mounts/brackets for steering gear is not an issue. After a fair amount of consideration I have decided that I am going with a hydraulic system, but I am hearing conflicting input on manual vs power hydraulic. I do appreciate your input and it is looking more like manual may be the way to go. Thanks again. Be well.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Power steering can be accomplished with a careful selection of autopilot and components. Look for a manufacturer that implements full follow up. Select a controller you will be comforable using. It may not be as fast lock to lock as pure power steering but it will a zero effort sterring system when maneuvering. Tun the controller and teh rudder goes where you want. Unlike a jog stick that only moves the rudder while held left or right.

 

[ronobrien]

Just trying to be clear. You refer to power steering and pure power steering. I am a little confused. Thanks.

 

[Keysdisease]

Hydraulic steering means a manual operated hydraulic system. Sea Star, Hynautic, Wagner are examples. You turn a steering wheel which activates a rotary hydraulic pump that operates a hydraulic actuator (cylinder) at the rudder.
Just to confuse this a little, Hynautic is different in that is is a pressurized system, and used air pressure to push hydraulic oil from a reservoir to the helm. This air pressure contributes no "power" to the system, it is still a manual hydraulic system.
Power assisted or "power steering" probably means two common systems. Traditionally just like on a car, there is a belt driven hydraulic pump on the engine that "assists" steering effort. In the last decade electric power assist has become more common, same concept as engine/belt driven except utilizes an electric pump instead of a belt driven pump.

For a 36ft Trawler I would choose a SeaStar manual hydraulic system. Very reliable, simple, repairable, readily available, easy to install, no maintenance, very good support almost everywhere if you need it. I believe the most common small boat hydraulic system in use in the USA today, formerly Teleflex.

SeaStar Solutions

 

[Mako]

Since you’ve decided on hydraulic, @Portage’s comments are true. The knob or jog lever on your autopilot acts like your power-steering. You usually can’t really use it during docking because of slow response time.

I’d recommend running copper tubing instead of long hoses. They are not only cheaper and more durable but have less friction/pressure loss. Oversize them slightly, but not too much, or you’ll have a hard time bleeding them.

That’s a wonderful luxury that you have, ripping open the entire aft section. Hope you’re giving it a nice clean coat of paint.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Since you’ve decided on hydraulic, @Portage’s comments are true. The knob or jog lever on your autopilot acts like your power-steering. You usually can’t really use it during docking because of slow response time.

I’d recommend running copper tubing instead of long hoses. They are not only cheaper and more durable but have less friction/pressure loss. Oversize them slightly, but not too much, or you’ll have a hard time bleeding them.

That’s a wonderful luxury that you have, ripping open the entire aft section. Hope you’re giving it a nice clean coat of paint.

Yes typical autopilot pumps used on recreational boats are slow for close quarters maneuvering. However with a follow up controller like this you can quickly develop the muscle memory to position the rudder exactly where you want. Because it is follow up you can set your rudder command and let the autopilot get the rudder there while you manage gear and throttle. Look out the windows to judge drift and fine tune your approach. All without needing to look at the rudder indicator.

https://www.simrad-yachting.com/sim...rollers/fu80-simrad-follow-up-steering-lever/

 

[Peter B]

Dear ronobrien, if, as you say..."I also do steel & aluminum fabrication so any mounts/brackets for steering gear is not an issue.' I really wonder why you are still saying, (after many have said, as I also do - stick with the cable and rod system)..."after a fair amount of consideration I have decided that I am going with a hydraulic system."

Do you have any real idea as to just how much more complicated a hydraulic system is, and how many more points of potential failure they are, such as leaks, etc.
If you are able to easily do metal fabrication, there can be nothing in the present cable and rod system you could not fix yourself.

The money then saved would more than pay for the slightly more expensive set-up to give you the best auto-helm function, but again, this system is very reliable. One electric motor with cog, an extra length of chain, a good head unit and fluxgate compass and you'd have a virtually bullet proof system. Ok, none of my business, just that the chain/cable and rod system in the boat I recently sold was one of the features I loved the most.

 

[Mako]

+1 @Peter.

The only system more reliable than cable is a shaft steering system. That would be my dream one day, to have an aft-pilothouse with shaft steering and a single mechanical engine.

 

[ronobrien]

I appreciate everyone's input. It really is helpful in considering different aspects and gives helpful direction.

 

[ronobrien]

It was the autohelm feature that pushed me in the hydraulic direction. I will be making a twice annual coastal run (New England to Virginia) and AP is a must. I had not heard anyone previously speak of a cable system AP.

 

[psneeld]

I have operated literally hundreds of boats in the last 2 decades and all but the under 25 footers had hydraulic steering.

Newer systems are not technically complicated or difficult to install or maintain though there are more pieces and parts. Yes they are incredibly reliable too as Keysdisease pointed out.

As for 6 turns lock to lock....on a slower trawler with a barn door rudder...I have never felt a need to reduce that or even get a suicide knob (did like it on the assistance toeboat with its smaller wheel and panic manueviring). My trawler steered easy with one finger in the wheel so hydraulic is just getting it right on install.

Me personally would go hydraulic unless I was happy with the cable and it was dirt cheap to fix/recondition.

For autopilot, wouldn't a sailboat bolt on the wheel system work as many sailboats have/had cable steering?

 

[Mako]

Autopilot drives for cable steering take a bit of effort to research. You’ll want an electric drive, which costs more than just tapping into your hydraulic cylinder, although the electro-hydraulic pump has a cost to it as well.

My cable system had an old Wood Freeman unit in it, but that’s no longer a relevant unit for a new install.

 

[ronobrien]

The bolt on wheel AP would work except for the aesthetics. I have also done 2 deliveries on SBs with cable AP that failed underway. We had to hand steer for a couple days. Not fun. I understand that they were the exception, but having a mechanical background I just feel the hydraulic would be more reliable. That's assuming I use a quality system that is properly sized and was installed with care.

 

[psneeld]

The bolt on wheel AP would work except for the aesthetics. I have also done 2 deliveries on SBs with cable AP that failed underway. We had to hand steer for a couple days. Not fun. I understand that they were the exception, but having a mechanical background I just feel the hydraulic would be more reliable. That's assuming I use a quality system that is properly sized and was installed with care.

Agreed....install and maintenance are key.

If you ever flew a helicopter, a boat hydraulic steering system is about as complicated and failure prone as a rubber band.

 

[sean9c]

Sounds like the OP has some fab skills so figuring out mounts for the steering cylinder and what to do for a tiller arm shouldn't be too difficult. I'm a fan of mechanical steering and since you already have cable steering you're not trying to figure out how to get straight runs for your cable and how you're going to make it all work. I like mechanical steering for the feel and that you can have a king spoke on your wheel so you know when the rudder is centered. If you decide to keep your cable steering the first thing that I'd do is research the autopilot drive unit. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that still make a drive for cable steering, though I'm guessing there is. I agree that the wheel mounted sailboat autopilots are ugly and you seem to read about a lot of failures. They seem hokey.
It's interesting, I seem to read a lot more posts on this forum about hydraulic steering problems than I do mechanical steering. Though all are related to lack of maintenance or basic understand of how they function.
Manual hydraulic steering is pretty simple, a helm pump connected to a steering cylinder with tubing. T in one of the many available autopilot drive pumpsets and you're done. If you do hydraulic connect you helm to cylinder using tubing, most use copper refrigeration tubing. I like rigid stainless tube, you get nice straight runs. I bought a flaring kit and tubing bender from McMaster and do JIC flares. Do short hoses at both ends.

 

[mbdana]

36' GB Autopilot

I have a 1988 36' Grand Banks Classic with cable steering which I love and maintain annually with care. In 2020 I replaced all navigation electronics and equipment. Our boat has the original AP made by Robertson. We switched with no problem to Garmin Reactor AP. It works great and insinc with our chartplotters.

Absolutely no need to not have autopilot on cable steering. Sawyer Whitten in Portland Maine installed ours.

Best of luck.
Mike Dana
Third Reef
36'Grand Banks Classic #819
Potts Harbor Maine

 

[Hippocampus]

On sailboat used strict rod (Whitlock) in order to get “feel”. But that’s unnecessary on power. In order of reliability would think the following
Tiller
Worm gear
Rod
Hydraulic
Cable
Think cable is the least reliable. Cables jumping if stretched and not tensioned. Blocks jammed or seized. Cables or fittings breaking.
As regards AP some will place an additional AP on its own independent tiller arm directly off the rudder post. That secondary AP is totally independent of the rest of whatever primary steering system chosen thereby achieving true redundancy. Yes you are flying by wire but modern APs are pretty reliable. Seen NKEs installed that way but would think it could be done with any brand. We had our AP on a separate tiller arm but it went through our electronics backbone allowing all three stations to have control. That decreased redundancy.

 

[Mako]

In order of reliability would think the following:
Tiller
Worm gear
Rod
Hydraulic
Cable
Think cable is the least reliable. Cables jumping if stretched and not tensioned. Blocks jammed or seized. Cables or fittings breaking.

Interesting. I would have thought cable more reliable than hydraulic. Hyd seals can dry up over time. If the boat is stored for long periods with the actuator rod extended instead of retracted and the rod is not oiled, then surface corrosion and pitting can occur. Common issue I see on outboards. But these things happen over long periods of time, likely years.

True that even cable systems need some annual maintenance, which many people overlook.

Anyway I see your point.

 

[Bmarler]

what exactly do you mean by "rod" steering?

 

[Mako]

By rod I believe you refer to either push/pull rod or to shaft steering.

 

[Bmarler]

By rod I believe you refer to either push/pull rod or to shaft steering.

i see. rod wouldn't be very common i think.
i would think sheathed cable (like rack or rotary helm) would be more reliable than hydraulic, but really, most modern steering systems are dead reliable. i think it's more about age of system than anything else. i imagine any system installed new would give at least ten years service trouble free.
i've been wrestling with replacing the aging rack system on my boat. new cable for it has been backordered for months now, no expected ship date in sight. so i thought about installing hydraulic. in the end i decided to get a full follow up controller for the comnav autopilot and leave the existing cable for backup.
the cable is still working, so it makes a serviceable redundant system.

 

[SoWhat]

It was the autohelm feature that pushed me in the hydraulic direction. I will be making a twice annual coastal run (New England to Virginia) and AP is a must. I had not heard anyone previously speak of a cable system AP.

On my boat normal steering is via cable to quadrant on rudder post.
AP steering is via hose to cylinder attached to tiller arm on rudder post.
I like the redundancy.

 

[Comodave]

Sounds like the OP has some fab skills so figuring out mounts for the steering cylinder and what to do for a tiller arm shouldn't be too difficult. I'm a fan of mechanical steering and since you already have cable steering you're not trying to figure out how to get straight runs for your cable and how you're going to make it all work. I like mechanical steering for the feel and that you can have a king spoke on your wheel so you know when the rudder is centered. If you decide to keep your cable steering the first thing that I'd do is research the autopilot drive unit. I'm not aware of any manufacturer that still make a drive for cable steering, though I'm guessing there is. I agree that the wheel mounted sailboat autopilots are ugly and you seem to read about a lot of failures. They seem hokey.
It's interesting, I seem to read a lot more posts on this forum about hydraulic steering problems than I do mechanical steering. Though all are related to lack of maintenance or basic understand of how they function.
Manual hydraulic steering is pretty simple, a helm pump connected to a steering cylinder with tubing. T in one of the many available autopilot drive pumpsets and you're done. If you do hydraulic connect you helm to cylinder using tubing, most use copper refrigeration tubing. I like rigid stainless tube, you get nice straight runs. I bought a flaring kit and tubing bender from McMaster and do JIC flares. Do short hoses at both ends.

I think that you see many more hydraulic issues because they are the most prevalent systems. Probably way more boats have hydraulic steering than any other type so it make sense that there will be more problems.

 

[Mako]

Good point that basically all systems are reliable when they are newly installed (properly). Can easily expect a decade or more of service with minimal maintenance. I used to be worried about hydraulic seal life in cold temperatures, but our heavy equipment operates just fine down to about zero degrees. Even summer temperatures on the Antarctic Peninsula don't usually get much below 20-30 degrees. Northwest Passage about the same or warmer. Steering compartments/lazarettes are protected from the wind and receive some warmth leaking from the rest of the boat.

 

[fgarriso]

You may want to start here. Teleflex Marine

https://services.crmservice.eu/raiminisite?a=FEY9pLHXWFV1XHUy5r0nDt9nymi1MFhla3nFqLzdRr4=

 

[ronobrien]

I will have a look. Thank you.

 

[Hippocampus]

Rod
Arm off rudder post- stainless steel rod from end of rudder post arm to arm attached to bottom of stainless pipe running up helm - two 45 degree gears to convert motion to horizontal at top of pipe with rod coming out to wheel.
Advantages - no play at all, mechanical advantage can be set by size of gears or size of wheel, no maintenance except once every decade of so. (The universal at the end of the rods is commonly a ball inside a ring with a bushing between so need to replace bushing to get rid of play. Even if bushing fails system still works .) , next to no friction.
Most folks put a second arm off the rudder post for the AP to use creating redundancy. That redundancy is often absent in hydraulic or cable systems.
Rod is rarely practical on power. Helm for sail usually midline and just in front of rudder post. Rod works well for twin rudders on sail (may use a rack ) but again not on power due to helm position.
Worm gear is also very reliable. Just two gears. Two down falls. Usually enough resistance in the system that the rudder angle stays where it is until you change it. Even more than rod very limited where you can place the helm. But it’s simple and bulletproof. Grease to gears once every few years. Done. Was on a Wm.Fife ketch. Worm gear original going on about a 100y of use.
So think for power there’s three choices. Hydraulic, cable and fly by wire. Cars have been fly by wire in effect for quite some time. Looking at cars. Initially tiller, then cable, then hydraulic, then wire. Perhaps those more knowledgeable about ships can comment on how those are steered in this day and age.