Storing a Diesel

[FF]

Many folks will simply change the oil and filter (hopefully from a warm engine) before the winter lay up.
Then in the spring , simply start up and operate .
That's how I have been doing it for "ever".

Seems DD has a very different opinion, of how it "should" be done.

LIFTED ,From their Series 50 handbook,


Extended Storage — An engine
in storage for an extended period
of time (over winter, for example)
may accumulate water in the oil
pan through normal condensation of
moisture (always present in the air)
on the cold, internal surfaces of the
engine. Lube oil diluted by water
cannot provide adequate bearing
protection at engine startup. For this
reason, Detroit Diesel recommends
16 All information subject to change without notice. (Rev. 01/04)
DDC-SVC-MAN-0058 Copyright © 2004 DETROIT DIESEL CORPORATION
SERIES 50 OPERATOR'S GUIDE
replacing the engine lubricating oil
and filters after extended storage.
NOTICE:
Failure to eliminate water-diluted
lubricating oil may lead to serious
engine damage at startup.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm having a hard time imagining after changing the oil, running the engine for 15 minutes, and then laying it up for the winter, the oil is going to dissipate off the engine bearings to the point where corrosion starts in 4 to 6 months.

Ted

 

[JD]

Many folks will simply change the oil and filter (hopefully from a warm engine) before the winter lay up.
Then in the spring , simply start up and operate .
That's how I have been doing it for "ever".

Seems DD has a very different opinion, of how it "should" be done.

LIFTED ,From their Series 50 handbook,


Extended Storage — An engine
in storage for an extended period
of time (over winter, for example)
may accumulate water in the oil
pan through normal condensation of
moisture (always present in the air)
on the cold, internal surfaces of the
engine. Lube oil diluted by water
cannot provide adequate bearing
protection at engine startup. For this
reason, Detroit Diesel recommends
16 All information subject to change without notice. (Rev. 01/04)
DDC-SVC-MAN-0058 Copyright © 2004 DETROIT DIESEL CORPORATION
SERIES 50 OPERATOR'S GUIDE
replacing the engine lubricating oil
and filters after extended storage.
NOTICE:
Failure to eliminate water-diluted
lubricating oil may lead to serious
engine damage at startup.

So let me see if I understand this. The water vapor in the air is going to displace the film of oil on the bearing journal to the point it will be detrimental on start up.

Couple of things come to mind. Chicken fat or lard can stick to the bottom of a fry pan in the sink under water (not vapor) with dish washing detergent and a week later the chicken fat, grease, oil whatever you call it will still be there. But I digress. Back to the above conundrum. So how, after a long winters nap does one get the oil out to effect the change. Start the engine and warm the oil to 250* so it will come out. But if you did that then you did the damage already and besides unless the oil pan was full of water 250* oil temps boil off the water vapors.

I guess you could make a rig that would heat the engine oil and with a pump pass it through the by pass to the bearings and then flush. You got to be kidding. Sounds like something the local Yanmar guy might come up with to make his house payments in the slow months.

Now if we reread that it really says "Lube oil diluted by water cannot provide adequate bearing protection at engine startup." So what does that mean? Diluted by one part per million is way different than 100 parts or 500 parts or....... I don't disagree that diluted oil is bad. But where does one draw the line?

 

[sunchaser]

This is standard language to avoid warranty claims for most/all engine mfrs. If you are under warranty do it the mfrs way or else. Some extended warranties can go for 6+ years so you will do 6+ oil changes, not a big deal IMHO. Once past the warranty period it is your engine to (mis)treat as you'd like.

 

[tiku]

My procedure includes the following.

Before lift
- change oils and filters
- check antifreeze condition (past - 20c required)

After lift
- Rinse with freshwater to the raw water circulation side
- then we drive 50/50 blend antifreeze and water to the engine and collect it from the exhaust (about 20 liters per engine)
- tape over exhaust to kill air circulation..

Then in the spring we change all fuel filters as well as air filters. After the first trip to home port I will change the oils and oil filters again just to be sure....

This is propably playong it too safe and complicated but then again, its my boat..

 

[Larry M]

A sailor friend restores/maintains antique cars for a living. I asked what he does for extended lay ups since some of the cars are only driven annually. He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?

 

[RickB]

He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?

None that would not hurt someone's feelings.

 

[Larry M]

None that would not hurt someone's feelings.

Rick: Huh? Your not going to hurt mine. What about the 1/2 filling and completing just before start up? Pros/cons?

 

[sunchaser]

Larry - This technique is not by the "book" on storing new or old engines. Given the importance of pistons and rings, how does this guy's 1/2 empty/full technique protect those? He'd never get hired at Harrah's as the head mechanic.

 

[Tom.B]

None that would not hurt someone's feelings.

Holy crap... I feel faint. Somebody catch me...

 

[Nomad Willy]

Gonzo you OK?

If you fog a diesel while cranking a cold engine is ther'e a risk of the fogging oil becoming fuel and revving the engine way up? I figure the droplets of oil would be very large compared to what comes out of the injectors and while cranking a stone cold engine it would probably not run on the fogging oil.

 

[O C Diver]

None that would not hurt someone's feelings.

That has ever stopped you in the past.

 

[Pineapple Girl]

That has ever stopped you in the past.

Oh snap. Y'all play nice now.

 

[chc]

Change the oil & filters, take samples while oil is still warm/hot. Run pink stuff thru raw water side. After haulout, open engine seacocks let remaining raw water drain. Plug exhausts & wait for Spring. Then, start 'er(them) up; warm up slowly run for 50 hrs, then change oil & filters again. Normally change oil @ 100 hrs, filters @ 200 hrs; depending on how seasonal use is going. Seems to work on my 8.2 DD's

 

[markpierce]

Poor guys. ... We're able to operate all year.

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Poor guys. I'm able to operate all year.

No need to gloat! I'm on my boat right now.

 

[swampu]

Fred good post, I was cranking on my port 6-71 and it seemed to take for ever to fire up. I thought about you in a past post telling me there is a recommended layup proceedure for over 30 days. I didn't remember what it was but I was just about to ask when this came up. Now I don't feel like I broke anything. It sure takes a while to crank though.

 

[FF]

"probably not run on the fogging oil"

Most running diesels sure will continue to run on fogging oil.

Its in the cylinder , gets heated to .combustion temperature , so the engine runs.

No problem , spray less or intermittantly and the engine will stop.

The DD folks seem to worry that the interior volume of the engine is large enough to condense enough water (Quarts?) that will be on the pan bottom and the first pressure from the oil pump will be water , not oil.

The expensive technique the round motor aircraft folks use is to install a special preserving oil, and drain it out before the engine is returned to service.

With a bottom drain , perhaps this gets the water as a side benefit.

Filling an engine with oil is NOT pre lubing an engine.

A pre luber pressurizes the oil passages before start , either with a seperiate pump, or with an accumulator .

Sealing the engine might slow down the air changes and limit the water intake?

 

[tiku]

Sealing the engine might slow down the air changes and limit the water intake?

Yes I believe this is the rationale behind advices to cover the exhaust tube ends. It is also an effective way to keep squirrels, etc. away from your engine, so you don't blow a nest out of the exhaust in the spring.

 

[rwidman]

........ He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing......

I am constantly amazed and amused by people who apparently lie awake at night and dream up "better" ways of doing things that teams of engineers and manufacturers have apparently missed for so many years.

Me, I figure the manufacturer knows his product better than anyone else and wants me to have a positive experience with the product, tell others how pleased I am with it, and return for my next purchase. I follow the manufacturer's instructions to the best of my ability. So far it's been working for me.

 

[Underway]

The storage building where we keep our boat (Great Lakes) is heated to 55 degrees and is very dry when the heaters are running. When the outside temperature rises to about 60 or above, the doors to the building are opened allowing ambient air inside. I am the only owner out of roughly a hundred who covers the exhaust openings. I also fit plastic bags over the air filters. Both are probably overkill.

 

[jleonard]

A sailor friend restores/maintains antique cars for a living. I asked what he does for extended lay ups since some of the cars are only driven annually. He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?

He is only pre lubing the oil return drains.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... get cold feet and read the directions. I frequently read the directions after the fact.

And judging from your post I'm sure you think it's all nonsense and illogical. Far less efficient I'll grant you but it gives us personal satisfaction. I'd rather be satisfied having done a job w my imagination and skill than doing a job as many others have decided the best way to do it is. You can get the job done well w the tried and proven but you'll never find a better way either. Some enjoy the process of getting the job done right and others enjoy the process of doing the job laced w clever ideas and imagination. If the end result is'nt satisfactory (like you've turned on the gas and read the 5 pages of instructions and then lit the stove) you can sometimes get out the book and have a look at the established way to get the job done and however dissatisfying the job turns out.

Jay,
And perhaps some valve guides.

 

[rwidman]

Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... .

One of the advantages we humans have over lower life forms is the ability to record our mistakes so others don't have to make the same ones. Life is too short to make all the mistakes ourselves.

 

[Marin]

With regards to pouring fresh oil into a crankcase and thinking that is a "pre-lube," I think that person is deluding himself. Pre-lubing an engine involves pumping oil to the moving parts of that engine---- crank, cam(s), valve rockers, etc. Merely pouring oil into the sump doesn't do any of that.

You can have a real pre-lube system that pumps oil under pressure to the moving parts of the engine before the engine is started, or you can turn the engine over on the starter so that the oil pump does the pumping. The second option mainly creates business for the people who sell or re-wind starter motors. The first option actually does something worthwhile.

But simply pouring additional oil into the sump---- that does nothing in terms of "saving" the engine from being started with little or no oil on the moving parts.

 

[rwidman]

Well Ron there are some of us who are dependent and some of us are independent. And some are dreamers like me. We put a lot of effort into figuring out things or how to do things and comeup w new stuff or a "never been done" procedure ... get cold feet and read the directions. I frequently read the directions after the fact.

And judging from your post I'm sure you think it's all nonsense and illogical. Far less efficient I'll grant you but it gives us personal satisfaction. I'd rather be satisfied having done a job w my imagination and skill than doing a job as many others have decided the best way to do it is. You can get the job done well w the tried and proven but you'll never find a better way either. Some enjoy the process of getting the job done right and others enjoy the process of doing the job laced w clever ideas and imagination. If the end result is'nt satisfactory (like you've turned on the gas and read the 5 pages of instructions and then lit the stove) you can sometimes get out the book and have a look at the established way to get the job done and however dissatisfying the job turns out.

Does that mean you think adding half the oil in the fall and the other half in the spring is a good idea?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Larry M wrote about his friend's odd practice;

"A sailor friend restores/maintains antique cars for a living. I asked what he does for extended lay ups since some of the cars are only driven annually. He drains the oil and changes the oil filter before a lay-up but only puts back half of the vehicles oil capacity. Then when the car is going out, he adds the remaining oil just before start up. He feels that by doing this he is pre lubing. I sounds like a good idea for boats. Any thoughts?"

I had to read back Ron but I found where the idea started in print. "pre-lubing"?
There is a possibility one may, in the act of pouring the oil into the engine through the valve cover, pre-lube a few valve springs, push rods, lifters and perhaps a few lobes of the camshaft. Probably about 1/25th of what needs lubrication in an engine or perhaps 1/100ths.

I think this individual should examine the path the oil takes as it flows over engine parts on it's way down to the wet sump in the oil pan. One might gain speed from a waxed car on the freeway too but ......

A more relative question (I think) would be that there is (an assumption) that there is a benefit to halving oil in the crankcase during storage and perhaps some of that benefit would be lost by only having half the oil there.

Also if one had a desire to go high tech is this matter I would explore the possibility that there may be a proactive way to better store an engine. Out of the blue how-a-bout filling the crankcase completely w a mixture of some fluid that controls the moisture issue and actually submerges most of the engine parts in oil. Or a sort-of fogging fluid that is put in the crankcase and when the engine is cranked over this special fluid (not practically oil) will be pumped throughout the engine and all it's lubricated parts. One would of course need a flushing fluid to remove the storing fluid ect ect.

As I wander around in this idea I see perhaps one could get quite involved in preserving something that may not need preserving at all. When I worked in a diesel powerhouse we DID pre-lube. There was a 300 gallon tank where the lube oil was kept (a dry sump system). In a dry sump system the only oil in the crankcase is that oil that is on it's way to the 300 gal tank. It had electric heaters in it like your hot water tank. The oil was heated to operating temp and then circulated through the engine assumably to all the places the oil normally goes when the engine is running so the hot oil heats most of the engine parts too. And of course the same thing is going on in the cooling system. This is a lot of trouble and expense so it's obvious somebody thinks pre-lubing and preheating has some merit. And of course as w most things it's a matter of balance. How much benefit do we get for how much trouble? Beating the wife takes time and may have questionable results.

So NO Ron I don't think storing w half oil is beneficial but of course I'm just guessing cuse you asked. I do, however think the most relevant fact re this question is the fact that your engine in your yacht is going to die from bad maint to bad operation to bad luck like the boat's sinking. Very rarely will a yacht engine ever get actually worn out. So 99% of the engines here on the forum won't get worn out and probably won't benefit from more than casual winterizing activities. Most all the time I keep Willy in the water and use her occasionally so I don't normally have a storage issue. When I do I crank the engine over for about 10 seconds 2,3, or four times once and awhile. While prelubing an engine that way a crankcase full of 50W oil w an additive like Power Punch to give the oil some extra "cling" properties may help. Just a thought as I haven't done this.

So no Ron I don't think the 1/2 now and 1/2 later has much or any merit. Some people say things like that just to feel and sound knowledgeable and Larry's friend may have gotten that 2nd hand or 22nd hand. Some old wives tales get passed on and on. And those whereas the benefit is obscure and there's no visible downside are ripe for long life.

But since Larry's friend stores cars for a living perhaps it has more merit than I think. Perhaps it all got started just to save on storage oil and that has obvious merit. But pre-lubing while the oil drools down? NOPE.

 

[rwidman]

My point is simply that the engine manufacturer publishes a storage proceedure as do other engine manufacturers and they are all pretty much the same, yet this individual has somehow convinced himself that he knows better so has developed his own proceedure.

What he has come up with doesn't make a bit of sense to me and I doubt it makes sense to most owners, manufacturers, or mechanics.

In short, he is a fool.

 

[sunchaser]

RWidman

What book would you go to for storing a 75 to 80 year old Cord, Bugatti or Offenhauser? Or how about a 60 year old Ferrari? Or a 90 year old Durant etc. All the professional maintainers of these exotics and even plain Jane Model As and Ts have very rigorous self developed "books" and storage plans. Same goes for newer Diesels, the book only goes so far and then guys like RickB carry the load. Eric has a point and he is by no means a fool.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Ron,

Oh yea the book ........... didn't even think about that.