Survey Observations

[Max Simmons]

Just an observation as I'm in the process of selling a boat that was not owned by me, but I have some familiarity as it was owned by a good friend and we cruised together over the years. It is currently going through the 3rd survey by the 3rd potential buyer and I am surprised at the stark difference from each survey report. In fact, it's hard to believe its even the same boat. A couple hose clamp issues did not make it on 2 of the 3 reports, and now brought to my attention, it's amazing that anyone missed that. A bilge pump that had come loose from it's base also was not noted.
Another surprise is the oil analysis. There have been 2 separate test, 2 different labs. First one came back all good. second one had higher readings on starboard engine for a few things, nothing really significant, but different. Each analysis came within months of each other and no additional engine hours added.
I get that the surveys are some science and some art, was just surprised at the difference between each.

 

[fgarriso]

A survey is just an" opinion " by a single person at the time. They are all usually different.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. MS. Just wait until they get they're moisture meters out and find artesian wells in the woodwork.

 

[firehoser75]

+! to Capt. Lee's statement.
As in most things, there are a full range of surveyors from not very good (poor) all the way to very good.
The trick is, to find the good ones to survey your prospective "new" boat.

 

[O C Diver]

Another surprise is the oil analysis. There have been 2 separate test, 2 different labs. First one came back all good. second one had higher readings on starboard engine for a few things, nothing really significant, but different. Each analysis came within months of each other and no additional engine hours added.
I get that the surveys are some science and some art, was just surprised at the difference between each.

The oil analysis can be easily explained. During sampling, oil drawn in the middle can yield cleaner results than if the sampling tube touches the bottom, possibly collecting settled debris.

Ted

 

[FWT]

Had a real estate appraisal lately?

 

[jleonard]

Yes a survey is an opinion. Everybody doesn't see everything the same way, and everyone doesn't see everything.
As Ted pointed out, where, how, and when the sample was taken can vary results by a lot.

 

[markpj23]

The explosion of verbiage in the errors & omissions clauses of both surveys and real estate appraisals tell me all I need to know about them....


Just found a main water tank overflow hose inside a locker. It was / is not connected to anything. Surveyor missed it - you had to move the foulies hanging there.



I guess the tank high level alarm was intended to be water streaming out of the locker into the master stateroom....

 

[koliver]

The explosion of verbiage in the errors & omissions clauses of both surveys and real estate appraisals tell me all I need to know about them....


Just found a main water tank overflow hose inside a locker. It was / is not connected to anything. Surveyor missed it - you had to move the foulies hanging there.



I guess the tank high level alarm was intended to be water streaming out of the locker into the master stateroom....

Your anecdote is on a very good looking boat, properly prepped for sale and survey. Just think of all the issues surveyors miss on a boat that isn't properly prepped, or even cared for.

 

[garbler]

The explosion of verbiage in the errors & omissions clauses of both surveys and real estate appraisals tell me all I need to know about them....

Just maybe the fact that we live in such a litigious country that holds the distinction of 80% of the world’s attornies. No excuse for a poor surveyor but if your a person with deep pockets and looking to try your hand at the profession think again.

Regards

 

[Comodave]

I have had the last 2 surveyors that did our boats ask me why I am not a surveyor. First because I am retired and don’t want to work a job anymore and second because of the lawyers.

 

[garbler]

Dave you need pretty thick skin in that business unfortunately too many dabblers and hobbyist types in the business these days rarely can take the pressure of making a call that always pisses off interested parties. Taking a Chapman class or joining one of the ‘ societies ‘ really isn’t the answer. If you did make the move I can tell you there is a real scarcity of talent in Michigan so if you can learn the business other than your personal experience and knowledge I think you may do well. Art Defever’s old partner Ralph Segerblom once told me “ surveying is like taking a crap — half the job is paperwork “. Trust me that statement is all too true. I’ve known a lot of very knowledgeable builders and marine pros who have forgot more than I’ll ever know but couldn’t do the paperwork and reports.

Rick

 

[Comodave]

Both of the surveyors that did our boats were surprised that I not only found all the things they found but also other things. But I have no interest in becoming a surveyor since I am retired and don’t want a job, except working on my own boats.

 

[AquaDestiny]

My 2 cents. I've been an aircraft mechanic and inspector for over 30 years now and it is similar. One thing I've learned is two inspectors can look at the same area on any given day and see totally different things. Not that either is bad, some things jump out at you and some things don't. That is why it is invaluable to always use a checklist to ensure important things are checked. On my home purchases I have always used a home inspector but usually find as much or more than they do. It helps if you have a meeting of the mind with your surveyor and agree on where your focus is. That will help avoid a lot of piddly squawks that are neither here nor there and increase your chances of finding your "deal breaker" discoveries. Communication is very important.

 

[koliver]

I have had the last 2 surveyors that did our boats ask me why I am not a surveyor. First because I am retired and don’t want to work a job anymore and second because of the lawyers.

Dave, its not the lawyers.
Here in Canada we get the same (close) legal education, but our system doesn't provide the encouragement to litigate that yours does. If, down the road, one of our systems changes, you will see the frequency of litigation change along with it.
The old, "be careful what you wish for" in play.

 

[Fish53]

Marine surveying is not a heavily accredited profession, almost anyone with some basic knowledge of marine equipment and systems can join. That's not saying that there are no good surveyors just that the quality of a survey can vary tremendously from one surveyor to another. Take the issue of oil samples, many surveyors won't say much about machinery and one that takes a cold oil sample isn't actually doing it correctly. An oil sample should be taken from an engine at operating temp and ideally just before the oil filter. In either case it's not necessarily the quantity of material found but it's composition. Typically what's being sought is evidence of bearing material and other metals along with contamination in order to assess wear.

 

[garbler]

I pretty much fully agree with you observations re marine surveyors but I would respectfully take exception with a few of the points in your post

“ Certification “ in the states is pretty sloppy at best. One society which is has the most members requires previous experience however the quality of this experience and depth of technical knowledge is illusive. As far as I know they have no written test and for legal reasons don’t intend to develop same. Their three classes of surveyors seem to be able to conduct surveys and post affiliation with this group. The other society is much older but has fewer members but does require passing a written exam tailored to the various fields of inspection. Either way the business is being overrun by poseurs with no depth or experience. As a buyers you can’t ask too many questions and the smart move is to stick close to the surveyor during the process. If the surveyor suggests staying away while he/she works then wonder why.

Yes surveyors differ in opinions but actually there shouldn’t be much room for such variables. The ABYC and NFPA provide standards on almost everything. On larger commercial craft the ABS does the same and USCG with Sub- Chapter T, H and towing plus many more. In Europe especially England surveyors qualify in ‘ Guild ‘ type associations which weed out pretty much all but the best. Finally the classification societies like ABS, Lloyds, Bureaus of Veritas and Norske all have volumes of specs and standards that must be met before underwriters, lenders and various ruling agencies will even talk with the owners or operating companies. A surveyor needs an appointment certificate by these societies in order to qualify. A Lloyd’s appointment usually answers but there are exceptions.

I’ve conducted oil and coolant tests for nearly thirty years originally with Caterpillar’s labs and the recommended method for drawing a oil sample is after an engine has cooled down to around 120° coolant temp. I’m a big believer is drawing coolant at the same time for analysis and reduction gear oil. Gear oil can be very revealing and coolant can easily reveal fuel or oil contamination, corrosion problems and more.

Regards
Rick

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. g. "The ABYC and NFPA provide standards..." NOT standards in law in numerous cases. Suggestions/voluntary guidelines only.


This is the problem I have with "surveyors". When conducting surveys the majority of them that I've employed are adamant that if "something" does not meet AYBC "standards" my vessel is unsafe or does not conform. Insurance companies take the written reports and insist that ALL "standards" be met or no coverage regardless of the actual legal standards.



When we bought our boat some 20 years ago the surveyor we employed knew that our original wiring was in good shape and didn't conform to the "standards" at that time. He didn't even mention the issues (non tinned wiring for example) in his quite comprehensive report.



On the other hand, a subsequent insurance survey a few years later required me to paint the swim platform brackets because they showed signs of rust. Rusty brackets=no insurance.


This being said, there IS a need for a survey BUT there should be some level of competence required AND a written exam taken every 3 or 4 years for someone to use the title of "Marine Surveyor"


I mentioned in another post about a requirement for vessel capacity plates. The boat broker had to audacity to state that an AYBC label superseded any state or federal laws.



OK. Rant over.

 

[Fish53]

Hi garbler, Thanks for your comments, which do to some extent agree with mine however I'm more in agreement with my friend RTF's take on the subject. Also, while I can't claim thirty years of professional experience taking oil samples (I failed to address coolant as I'm sure you noticed) I was simply regurgitating what I was taught in the engineering classes at the academy. I'm willing to admit I may be mistaken however as your method differs so little from mine it would appear to be gratuitous.
In my years as a professional mariner I have been through numerous surveys and as stated the displayed knowledge of the surveyors and the resultant surveys has been widely varied, from impressive to comical. Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of working with every surveyor nor done any investigation into the trade so my views are to be taken as anecdotal.

 

[garbler]

Hi garbler, Thanks for your comments, which do to some extent agree with mine however I'm more in agreement with my friend RTF's take on the subject. Also, while I can't claim thirty years of professional experience taking oil samples (I failed to address coolant as I'm sure you noticed) I was simply regurgitating what I was taught in the engineering classes at the academy. I'm willing to admit I may be mistaken however as your method differs so little from mine it would appear to be gratuitous.
In my years as a professional mariner I have been through numerous surveys and as stated the displayed knowledge of the surveyors and the resultant surveys has been widely varied, from impressive to comical. Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of working with every surveyor nor done any investigation into the trade so my views are to be taken as anecdotal.

Fish I think we agree a lot more than you think re. the ‘ profession ‘ of Marine Surveying. From the outside many boat owners have the feeling that’s surveyor is somebody who knows more than anybody else on the docks. The day I quit learning from the old timers was the day to quit plus getting to old and stiff to go aloft or crawl thru tight spaces and looking for ways to make the job easier. What most people don’t know is the business is like a smorgasbord of jobs from damage repairs and risk management, load line inspections to trip inspection, passenger operations and safety, USN jobs and historic vessels and Historic Trust, etc. etc. all of which require different report formats. Paperwork is the killer for most so those offering boilerplate forms with comments like hull construction, wood, fiberglass, steel are a red flag. I spent thirty- two years in the business and later in my career it seems like every job was different and more complicated than just doing standard C & V insurance or pre- purchase. I worked two and a half years for a surveying firm learning the ropes. The first two years I wasn’t even allowed to sign my own reports.

You methods for oil analysis are not right or wrong it’s just that I always followed the advice of the Cat house.

 

[Slider70]

When I had a pre-purchase one done on one of the vessel I purchased the surveyor noted what he thought was rot in a few areas under the glass. That was six years ago. I have opened up two of these areas to date and found zero rot.

He advised that I not purchase this vessel. I ignored his advice as I have been boating for almost 50 years at that time. I've owned many boats over that time. I feel qualified to make my own observations. However, I had to have the survey to satisfy the insurance and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. I was putting a commercial license on the boat too. Only a few surveyors in British Columbia are certified to do this for DFO. Plus the survey caused the purchase price to be lowered (for potential rot repair costs when done).

This is not the first time I have had a surveyor tell me that he found rot in a vessel I was potentially purchasing when the was none on further investigation. The other time it turned out to be concrete ballast that made the sound the surveyor thought was rot while he was tapping from the outside of the hull.

I am not slamming surveyors. It is a challenging job and it is only an opinion (hopefully a leaned one) at that point in time. Further, on a purchasing process I would rather hear the negatives, even potential negatives, than finding them after I bought.

 

[BandB]

I hate to read posts slamming an industry. The reality is there are good surveyors and poor ones. There are two firms in South Florida that do a great job and get the majority of referrals. One in particular is always booked up and has a waiting time. Customers will go elsewhere rather than wait and get a lesser quality surveyor. In our area, it's simple. The surveyor available immediately is not likely very good. If they were, they'd be busy.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Marine surveying is not a heavily accredited profession, almost anyone with some basic knowledge of marine equipment and systems can join. That's not saying that there are no good surveyors just that the quality of a survey can vary tremendously from one surveyor to another. Take the issue of oil samples, many surveyors won't say much about machinery and one that takes a cold oil sample isn't actually doing it correctly. An oil sample should be taken from an engine at operating temp and ideally just before the oil filter. In either case it's not necessarily the quantity of material found but it's composition. Typically what's being sought is evidence of bearing material and other metals along with contamination in order to assess wear.

With very few exceptions the surveyors, even engine surveyors, that I have encountered have no training in taking or interpreting oil samples, I've seen professional mechanics use the same tube to take all samples. I've tried to educate myself, including taking 40 hour classes on fluid analysis, and I still learn new things about tribology every day.

What you want is someone who can thoroughly interpret a report, not just look for red and green flags. In many cases I see all green reports, but the data that's been supplied by the sampler is incorrect, which can invalidate the results.

Surveyor professionalism runs the gamut, just like marine techs, from horrible to outstanding. In my experience, the best surveyors come from the marine trades, rather than those who have retired out of another profession and simply took the Chapman's class. They should have at least one but preferably two or three ABYC certifications.

More here...

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Surveyors-PT0519_Gearhead_p35-39.pdf

The Art of the Engine Survey | Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting

https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/FluidAnalysis143_Final.pdf

 

[Fish53]

Is this an advertisement?

 

[garbler]

No advertisement just Steve trying to enlighten this group. He is a very well respected author in various industry rags and a man with a hundred fathoms of technical depth in many onboard systems. Not selling a thing but free information.

Rick

 

[Comodave]

No advertisement just Steve trying to enlighten this group. He is a very well respected author in various industry rags and a man with a hundred fathoms of technical depth in many onboard systems. Not selling a thing but free information.

Rick

And some really really good information at that. I am glad he takes the time to participate here.

 

[Fish53]

I guess when I see "inc." behind a name it just makes me think it's a business, I don't know why.

 

[garbler]

No Fish you’re right “ Inc “ is positively a business. I was an Inc. too when I was surveying but Steve is on the up and up. The only problem I see was all the business adds attached but those are from a magazine he is affiliated with and you know magazines, it’s all about advertisers.

 

[Oeanda]

A survey by its nature - details listed by number with glossy pics, etc- appears to be the gospel truth, not just ‘We took a stab at it’. It took me about two years to realize that the windlass I was halfheartedly trying to get parts for was not even the same make as what was listed on the survey. Just similar in appearance to an Ideal so he must’ve just guessed. After that little epiphany, several other issues on the boat became clearer. And that was fine too, but would have been better if I hadn’t been naive enough to just assume from the start that the survey was accurate.

 

[BandB]

No advertisement just Steve trying to enlighten this group. He is a very well respected author in various industry rags and a man with a hundred fathoms of technical depth in many onboard systems. Not selling a thing but free information.

Rick

In a sense it is an advertisement, or at least public relations, but he is registered as a commercial member and doesn't cross the line. When Parks had Hopkins Carter his posts reflected positively on the company and drove some business. Pau Hana picks up insurance customers by being a positive, informative insurance professional. Commercial members like Steve have a difficult path to walk here, but if I felt he was abusing the forum, I'd be the first to speak out as I have when I felt new members were promoting a business. His web site has a lot of very useful information. I feel he provides good information to the forum without crossing over into marketing himself here.

I also applaud those who are commercial members. They're openly labeled. I also like those who represent builders and come here to answer questions but are careful not to proselytize. Then I strongly dislike those who send other trolls and come under various names, hiding their identity or relationship, to try to defend the indefensible conduct of their business. We benefit from open professionals like Steve though and I say this having never used him and no plans to do so. I don't agree with all her has written but love reading his site.