Teak Question #4527

[calicojack767]

So I know there is tons of info on the subject as I have searched and read pros and cons. I have recently begun to step aboard trawlers for a future purchase. For my own personal reasons of not wanting teak I have been avoiding boats that have it. Recently though, I found a trawler in good shape and a good price. I went aboard and examined it in person and what I found in the attached pictures was of course it needs to be redone but it looked saturated (rained heavily here for a couple days) in some areas and just grayed out and dry where it had been in the sun. In between the panels is that black sealant like substance that looks to be in need of replacement (is that normal) as well many of the screws were exposed which would also have to be resealed Im sure. I went below into the salon and cabins and knocked around didn't find any soft spots or water stains showing leaks (minus one soft area near the front cabin sky light about an inch in diameter. Nevertheless my question is this......is the saturation I saw normal if the teak is untreated? I apologize for the lack of knowledge and a possible redundant question but a search only answered more detailed questions rather than a "is this a normal teak thing" type question. It only has teak flooring on the main deck so if its doable I may "compromise" on the teak no teak personal debate.

 

[Swfla]

Based on screws showing and no other info, my guess is this is an old boat. There should be wooden plugs over the screws. Is it only one spot or randomly over the decks? Over the years, the decks get sanded down becoming too thin for plugs. I remember a Cheoy Lee that had thin teak from the factory and the first sanding popped plugs out. Teak is soft wood and porous, great for traction when wet. Your concern is mushy wood, mine is thin wood that's at the end of it's life. More info on the boat would be helpful.

 

[calicojack767]

Based on screws showing and no other info, my guess is this is an old boat. There should be wooden plugs over the screws. Is it only one spot or randomly over the decks? Over the years, the decks get sanded down becoming too thin for plugs. I remember a Cheoy Lee that had thin teak from the factory and the first sanding popped plugs out. Teak is soft wood and porous, great for traction when wet. Your concern is mushy wood, mine is thin wood that's at the end of it's life. More info on the boat would be helpful.

Yes it is an older boat. 1983. So basically the saturation is "normal" as long as the wood is not mushy? Also it looks as though on most of the exposed screws (I'll look closer if I go back) there was still depth there (like something was missing) rather then nothing left to work with. Aside from finding the wood plug replacements are is there some other sealant that can be correctly utilized to re-plug? Also that rubberized whatever it is between the slats, if flaky can it be redone or have to be removed and re-done?

 

[STB]

I'm not sure that I'd say it is normal, but it is common.

Newer teak in good condition or even older teak maintained in good condition has enough oil and sealant not to deeply saturate. Older teak can dry out and get small small cracks that hold water, which is what you are seeing.

Those screws may be loose. Is the deck cored? If so, a loose screw can let moisture into the core.

It is hard to sound a deck through teak, so only once it gets soft and bouncy or saggy does one notice a problem.

One would have to either take a wait and see approach to those screws, rebedding and replacing as needed, or pull and rebed each one.

If the teak is too thin, it cant hold a screw, hide a screw, or be sanded. If not, it is all fixable.

Some of those joints look really thick. That might be a sign of the adjoining boards having been cut thin due to wear or failure (or not).

At any rate, when they get to this point,, teak decks offer you a choice....fixing them for cheap is easy, just work. Unscrew them, scrape them up, fill the holes with epoxy, sand, prime, and kiwigrip, awlgrip, etc. Or pay someone a ton of money to do the same. Or, wait and rebed screws as water damages things, letting the boat and decks generate slowly.

Cheers!
-Greg

 

[calicojack767]

I'm not sure that I'd say it is normal, but it is common.

Newer teak in good condition or even older teak maintained in good condition has enough oil and sealant not to deeply saturate. Older teak can dry out and get small small cracks that hold water, which is what you are seeing.

Those screws may be loose. Is the deck cored? If so, a loose screw can let moisture into the core.

It is hard to sound a deck through teak, so only once it gets soft and bouncy or saggy does one notice a problem.

One would have to either take a wait and see approach to those screws, rebedding and replacing as needed, or pull and rebed each one.

If the teak is too thin, it cant hold a screw, hide a screw, or be sanded. If not, it is all fixable.

Some of those joints look really thick. Thst might be a sign of them having been cut thin due to wear or failure (or not).

At any rate, when they get to this point,, teak decks offer you a choice....fixing them for cheap is easy, just work. Unscrew them, scrape them up, fill the holes with epoxy, sand, prime, and kiwigrip, awlgrip, etc. Or pay someone a ton of money to do the same. Or, wait and rebed screws as water damages things, letting the boat and decks generate slowly.

Cheers!
-Greg

If I do a purchase just for my own personal preference on this or any boat the teak's days will be numbered. I have no problem with the work but itd be more the stripping, filling, and awlgrip. The knocking around I did was from inside not the outside teak area, the question in my mind was how long will whats there hold out until I can remove it. I know well taken care of properly teak adds that aesthetic quality some like but Im a military guy and my mind works more on practical then pretty.

 

[Swfla]

As stated above, what lies beneath can be an issue. As well as the need to maintain the decks. The decks can be plugged if enough depth left and the sealant removed and caulked. If you do a search of the forums, there's lots of info on doing that work with named products. I'd suggest a pro to examine the decks and other areas for soft spots. Big difference between refinishing teak and also pulling planks to repair rotten decks.

 

[calicojack767]

As stated above, what lies beneath can be an issue. As well as the need to maintain the decks. The decks can be plugged if enough depth left and the sealant removed and caulked. If you do a search of the forums, there's lots of info on doing that work with named products. I'd suggest a pro to examine the decks and other areas for soft spots. Big difference between refinishing teak and also pulling planks to repair rotten decks.

Yes I will do a survey before a purchase.....just want to avoid that and walk away if something I myself see that doesnt pass the smell test through my own personal knowledge of basic mechanics, woodworking etc. before spending that money. Im not in a rush and want to call in an expert when the obvious stuff isnt there to find the things many guys on here mention as hidden dangers. While I can fix just about anything my knowledge of teak wood could fill a thimble:lol:

 

[STB]

Sounding a deck is a skilled that needs honing. Doing from the inside can be more challenging for the echo and environment.

If you have an older teak deck, and wooden core, you won't know what you have until it is off. Not for sure. A surveyor is a good start. But, there are limits to what can be known while the teaknis in place.

The seam sealant needs to be cut or scraped out, then the inside of the wood edges sanded for adhesion. Then a bond breaker applied to the deck, the. The wood masking taped, then te sealant squeezed and pushed in and leveled, then the tape pulled and sanded level while resurfacing the deck.

 

[calicojack767]

Sounding a deck is a skilled that needs honing. Doing from the inside can be more challenging for the echo and environment.

If you have an older teak deck, and wooden core, you won't know what you have until it is off. Not for sure. A surveyor is a good start. But, there are limits to what can be known while the teaknis in place.

The seam sealant needs to be cut or scraped out, then the inside of the wood edges sanded for adhesion. Then a bond breaker applied to the deck, the. The wood masking taped, then te sealant squeezed and pushed in and leveled, then the tape pulled and sanded level while resurfacing the deck.

Understood......most likely teak is not in my long term future.....id rather work with epoxies and awlgrip then what you just described. Again Im more for practical rather than pretty. I know the Taiwanese trawler builders prided themselves on the woodwork but its not for me.

 

[STB]

You may want to look at Kiwi Grip vs AwlGrip for decks. I'm a big AwlGrip fan for hulls and houses. But, on decks it gets so thin over the texture that it doesn't seem to last as long. The folks I know who have used Kiwi Grip love it. And, it is easier, less complex, less hazardous to use, and less expensive.

Another option is a vinyl teak substitute. The foam products, e.g. Eva-based, don't seem to last as well as the solid ones.

 

[calicojack767]

You may want to look at Kiwi Grip vs AwlGrip for decks. I'm a big AwlGrip fan for hulls and houses. But, on decks it gets so thin over the texture that it doesn't seem to last as long. The folks I know who have used Kiwi Grip love it. And, it is easier, less complex, less hazardous to use, and less expensive.

Another option is a vinyl teak substitute. The foam products, e.g. Eva-based, don't seem to last as well as the solid ones.

Thanks I will definitely look into the kiwi grip. I'm by no means set on a boat yet...for me real is definitely not a requirement. This one was found by accident and was worthy of a closer look.

 

[SoWhat]

Stick an ice pick in one of the seams. If you get 1/2" depth it's worth reseaming. 1/8", deck is beyond it's useful life. I suspect with all the screw heads showing it has been re-seamed before.

If you can pull a screw, insert a 90' dental pick and spin it around. If you pull up damp core material walk. Owner may not be happy watching you take apart his teak deck.

 

[STB]

I'd be happy with 1/4" or even 3/16" of thickness, if it was good wood.

I would not disassemble any part of someone else's boat or dig holes in it without their informed, unambiguous, and maybe written permission (.)

First off, that isn't respectful.

And, secondly, you could end up responsible for replacing the teak, recoring the deck, and repairing the interior water damage when the hole you dug leaks, the cause is found, and the marina's, yard's, or neighbor's security camera footage shows you doing it.

Really.

 

[SoWhat]

I would not disassemble any part of someone else's boat or dig holes in it without their informed, unambiguous, and maybe written permission

You are right. I wouldn't be happy if someone started taking apart my boat without my knowledge. It could be part of survey conditions. There really isn't a good way of knowing what is under a teak deck. Without the bungs I suspect all exposed screws are leaking.

 

[Swfla]

Everyone is so helpful on this forum. All shared knowledge is gold. I wonder though, is CalicoJack beyond kicking the can on this boat? He did lead with the intent to avoid teak. Seems our input would get him back on the no teak track. What say you Calico? I was confused about the word "real" in your last post. Did you mean teak? Then you've already answered my query.

 

[caltexflanc]

That deck is not normal, it is worn. The best thing you can do for a teak deck is NOT to "treat it". Washing it with clean salt water and a soft brush every now and then. One way they get worn out fast is people using chemical cleaners, sanding them, etc. People just walking on them doesn't do that.

Could it be refurbished? Maybe, depends on thickness and other factors. If I really like everything else about the boat, I'd have someone who is expert in repairing teak decks look at it first, to give you an estimate, as well as a surveyor.

 

[Comodave]

Looking at the photos it appears close to end of life to me. If I were to buy the boat I would look for a reduced price based on that. Then I would remove the teak and find out if the core is wet or not. If it is wet and rotten then cut the fiberglass deck out, remove the old core, replace with new core, reglass deck back in. Then fill and sand the deck and paint with Kiwigrip. Kiwigrip is great to use. It will cover small imperfections and is excellent nonskid. Water based so no VOCs. The only complaint I have with it it is very hard to sand off. I had a deck repair the PO had done and it showed up after I had Kiwigriped the deck. I tried sanding with a DA sander, no go. Finally after trying to sand it I broke out the belt sander. Had to go to 40 grit and it still took a lot of time to sand it off. But I guess it is good that it is so durable.

 

[Swfla]

That begs for every buyer to decide how much work/repair they would be comfortable with.

 

[SoWhat]

Looking at the photos it appears close to end of life to me. If I were to buy the boat I would look for a reduced price based on that. Then I would remove the teak and find out if the core is wet or not.

I wouldn't buy a boat with wet core. Very expensive repair job depending upon extent. Many other boats on the market that won't spend a season in the repair yard. I would want concrete evidence of a dry core. If that means removal of several screw to check then that would go into the offer as a contingency.

 

[STB]

I guess one thought I have to add to this is that it is best for all involved if, barring any contrary and seemingly reliable representations by the prior owner, one goes into the process expecting the common and likely case, and not expecting to be unusually lucky.

The common case for a deck that looks like that is to have some leaky screws and some core damage. And, that's A-Okay as long as it is okay with the buyer, who will need to continue to "manage" it until deciding to redo the core and resurface the deck, which will require a balance of money and time. Tons of fun has been had, tons of memories have been made, and many miles have been crossed on "Leaky teakies" in all stages of their decks' lifetimes.

Guven a biat like this, if one makes an offer and goes through the process of getting a survey, haul out, sea trial, mechanical inspection, etc, expecting to get lucky and find solid decks -- one runs a bug risk of wasting money and time and getting disappointed.

If one goes into it planning to have a reliable vessel, tons of fun, and some projects to do at a fair market price -- that is very often very possible.

Some things inspectors can't really tell for sure -- the condition of the deck core, when buried under failing teak, is one of them -- at least until it gets quite bad.

So, one just needs to go into the whole process knowing that it is likely that the core under a deck like that could get softer until it is fixed -- unless one gets lucky and happily discovers, years later, with good management, it is still solid.

Just my thinking...

 

[PM]

There is probably nothing wrong with the teak. It has been sanded too many times and is very thin. Probably too thin to sand again and probably too thin to recaulk. (The groove between the boards is now too shallow to have the new caulk bond to the sides.)

Like I said there is nothing wrong with the teak. It generally does not rot or go bad.

The problem is in the underlayment. The teak deck may not even feel soft but I can almost guarantee that if you pull the teak up you will just about fall through the fiberglass. You can't just cover the teak either. The moisture and rotten fiberglass under the teak will eventually give way.

Every one of those exposed screw heads introduces moisture into the fiberglass below the teak. You are probably looking at a big, expensive job.

pete

 

[PM]

I just took a second look at the pictures. There is definitely something going on there. You can see that there are a few bungs in place and maybe even tight. All the visible screws are neatly lined up across the width of the boat, especially at the front deck. This is very unusual. Since teak is so expensive most boat manufacturers use random length boards. If they can get 18 inches out of a board they wouldn't cut any off it to match the other boards, too wasteful. As a result of the random board lengths there will be a screw near the ends and the remaning length of the board will a screw every 4 or 6 or eight inches, different with each board.

That is not what I am seeing here. I think those screws have been added at a later time, not countersunk or "bunged". And to make it worse, they appear to be stainless. The original would be brass or bronze.

It could be that they were getting some "flex" and thought that adding screws would help. Or maybe the planks were popping loose from the rotten glass underneath and they needed to be screwed down using a more aggressive screw. Maybe even the heads were sanded of some of the original screws and the boards were getting loose.

Whatever is going on here ain't good. I think you need a moisture meter, an expert survey and I would probably still "take a walk"

pete

 

[Swfla]

Very good observations. Neat vs random now jumps out at me as well.

 

[Comodave]

I guess one thought I have to add to this is that it is best for all involved if, barring any contrary and seemingly reliable representations by the prior owner, one goes into the process expecting the common and likely case, and not expecting to be unusually lucky.

The common case for a deck that looks like that is to have some leaky screws and some core damage. And, that's A-Okay as long as it is okay with the buyer, who will need to continue to "manage" it until deciding to redo the core and resurface the deck, which will require a balance of money and time. Tons of fun has been had, tons of memories have been made, and many miles have been crossed on "Leaky teakies" in all stages of their decks' lifetimes.

Guven a biat like this, if one makes an offer and goes through the process of getting a survey, haul out, sea trial, mechanical inspection, etc, expecting to get lucky and find solid decks -- one runs a bug risk of wasting money and time and getting disappointed.

If one goes into it planning to have a reliable vessel, tons of fun, and some projects to do at a fair market price -- that is very often very possible.

Some things inspectors can't really tell for sure -- the condition of the deck core, when buried under failing teak, is one of them -- at least until it gets quite bad.

So, one just needs to go into the whole process knowing that it is likely that the core under a deck like that could get softer until it is fixed -- unless one gets lucky and happily discovers, years later, with good management, it is still solid.

Just my thinking...

Before I make an offer on a boat I have done a pretty thorough inspection of the boat and pretty much know what is wrong with the boat. The current boat, while the survey was in progress I kept telling him things were wrong before he got to them, he stopped and asked me why I was not a surveyor. Told him I needed the time to work on my boats. If someone isn’t very knowledgeable about boats and can’t do a good inspection before the offer, then I would recommend they find a friend who can help them.

 

[Comodave]

I wouldn't buy a boat with wet core. Very expensive repair job depending upon extent. Many other boats on the market that won't spend a season in the repair yard. I would want concrete evidence of a dry core. If that means removal of several screw to check then that would go into the offer as a contingency.

I would not be afraid of a boat with a wer core deck. I think it is pretty simple to repair, it is hard wark, but not technically hard. It is basic fiberglass work.

 

[bligh]

Get a moisture meter and use it everywhere you can. That will likely tell you what kind of task you are up against or what the deck condition is ty hat you would have to live with.

 

[Comodave]

I have not used a moisture meter but have been told that you have to have some experience in order to be able to really know what it means. Don’t know for sure though.

 

[catalinajack]

I had a skiff-type dinghy damaged in a rough crossing of the Gulf from Carabelle to Tarpon Springs. The gunwhale, all night slammed against my swim ladder. It was too dangerous to go out and resecure the guy lines. The construction was two piece molded and glued together with filler in between. Just looking at the damage it was obvious that water would have filled in between the two shells. The insurance adjuster, with his trusty moisture meter, determined that there was no water in there. We live in Maryland and I was justly worried about freeze damage. Anyway, I took what I could squeeze out of the insurance company and bought a new dinghy direct from the manufacturer (Bluewater Baby). I brought the old one to the manufacturer to salvage the center console in order to save some money. He later told me that when he drilled a relief hole in the bottom of the stern section, gallons of water pored out. So, was it a bad, unreliable, or poor moisture meter or an unskilled user? Either way, I no longer trust moisture meters.

I have not used a moisture meter but have been told that you have to have some experience in order to be able to really know what it means. Don’t know for sure though.

 

[jleonard]

I have not used a moisture meter but have been told that you have to have some experience in order to be able to really know what it means. Don’t know for sure though.

Yes you need some level of skill to interpret the readings.
Plus different materials will read differently.

After looking closely at the pictures I am going to say the decks are pretty well gone. The wet remaining near the screws means water has penetrated there. Plus there are splits near some of the screws and that lets water in.
Others have addressed all the exposed screw heads. Not good.

Regarding "kiwi grip" and similar products:
I have only seen 2 boats whose decks were covered with that kind of product. Both looked like "crap" in my opinion. Maybe those were both poorly done but none the less it makes me say that I don't recommend that kind of a "fix".
YMMV

 

[Westiculo]

Agree with the above.

I just re-did our deck two years ago. For a full 42-foot grand banks that'll take you an entire summer on your hands and knees (assuming your core hasn't rotted away).

Moisture meter won't do you any good trying to look through teak, but it's certain that there's water intruding the core anywhere you see a screw head. If it's been like that for a while, then the only thing you can do is remove all the teak and re-core.



The best way to tell if there's damage is to remove a couple of screws in areas that look suspect. Use a 3/8 drill bit to drill in where the screws came out. You'll go through teak, then a thin layer of fiberglass, then wood. Don't go all the way through the wood or you'll drill right through the whole deck (there's another layer of fiberglass below it, so you don't have to be real careful). If the wood comes out all rotty and wet, then the deck is probably shot there.



Bring some 3/8 teak plugs and wood glue to repair your damage. Tap them in there then use a chisel to cut flat. This is also good to try out because this is what you'll have to do for every screw in that deck.



If you don't want to drill a hole, just try taking a few screws out. Philips heads were put in by the previous owner but flat heads will be original. Flat heads should be a bitch to get out. If not, then the plywood core has rotted away. Our deck had stainless screws original.