The 36th Americas Cup

[Peter B]

Point of order, for those who bemoan the loss of the monohulls as they used to be - that is, displacement - I would just like to remind folk that quite legally, under the Deed of Gift, the Royal Auckland Yacht Club challenged San Diego for the cup in ~ 1988, admittedly out of the usual 4 year cycle, but within the rules. They challenged with a large, exciting monohull. Dennis Connor defended with a catamaran, and of course easily won - on the water anyway. It was challenged in the courts as unfair match. The case was won initially, but over-turned by the US Hight Court. End of story...fast won the day..how fast is obtained then became the motivation.
https://www.maritimemuseum.co.nz/collections/25-years-the-story-of-kz1-new-zealand-the-big-boat

 

[mvweebles]

Same could be said of Formula 1 racing. Yet the same cars and same drivers and same teams trend at the top. Same with GP motorcycles.

I totally get that these boats bear little apparent resemblance to commercially available sailboats. I doubt there will be a cruising boat anytime soon with foils or an arched deck for wing-lift. But I disagree it's a total battle of the sky box designers and engineers. Small, almost imperceptible errors now make the difference between winner and loser. It doesn't take just a bad jibe to lose, a slightly poor one will due.

NZ is a country of around 5m people, yet they have been at the top of the heap. You would be hard pressed to find a best-of list in custom manufacturing, engineering, sw engineering, etc that includes NZ in the top 10. Conversely, the US has some of the most sophisticated aerospace design and manufacturing known to man.

If this is only about design and investment and not about the teams and capability, how does NZ remain not just competitive but dominant? Understood the teams are global and not from the country of boat's flag, but still.....

 

[Nomad Willy]

The America’s Cup usta be a grand thing of beauty. Boats that swept your heart away with their grace and exciting young men sailing them.

Now it’s just about technology. And the beauty? I see some but nothing like the beauty we saw in the 60’s and earlier. The boats could be called contraptions.

 

[OldDan1943]

Wasn't too many years ago, the winged keel was a super secret.
It was noted elsewhere, the foil technology is owned by one company and they responsible for any and all maintenance and improvements.
I guess each boat can order foils of different design, if they wish.

 

[FF]

I would love to see a return of the J Boats.

After racing they could probably pay the expenses as charter boats.

And as "any time 2 sails are within sight , the race is ON", would be exciting for the guests , even if only as a head boat.

 

[OldDan1943]

FF, I visited a J boat, many years ago. Below deck is best described as "skin and bones." It was not designed nor built to have cabins or heads.

 

[mvweebles]

OldDan - clearly you were aboard a different J than the Edeavour, at least since she was refit for a second time.

https://youtu.be/tgCMsSqfR1A

She's for sale for £17m. Somehow I suspect that these boats as technological pariahs in their day too.

Its always been about the boat. At least now the short sprint format can actually be viewed by spectators.

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

OldDan - clearly you were aboard a different J than the Edeavour, at least since she was refit for a second time.

https://youtu.be/tgCMsSqfR1A

She's for sale for £17m. Somehow I suspect that these boats as technological pariahs in their day too.

Its always been about the boat. At least now the short sprint format can actually be viewed by spectators.

Peter

My visit occurred in the late 50s. It was set up for racing. No extra weight.

 

[mvweebles]

There was a famous west coast boat from the 1979s "Merlin" that held all sorts of TransPac records (some probably still stand - the deign morphed onto the Santa Cruz 50 racer cruiser). Merlin's magic was her wave piercing bow, which made her part submarine. "Wet Ride" was barely a beginning of description.

I was aboard her 25 years ago. The galley consisted of a single Sea Swing burner mounted to the bulkhead. Except for bunks, the interior was a sail loft with a Wilcox Crittenden Skipper head mounted in the middle, right over the keel.

Bill Lee, the designer of Merlin and the line of SC boats was famous for his saying "fast is fun". The zenith of west coast boat building.

And beyond the reach of all but wealthy patrons.

Peter

 

[DCDC]

Last February we crossed Pensacola Bay on our annual migration and noticed a 25 kn AIS target heading south. Binoculars verified, but it had a sail and winds were 10 kn? It crossed our path, tacked and headed north. By the time we had crossed the bay it had made four round trips north to south. Turned out to be ‘Defiant’, New York Yacht Club’s Cup contender, training in Pensacola.

 

[Peter B]

Not long to wait now guys. Mark the 15th Jan on your calendars and investigate how and where to get the feed.
Here in Aus it's on Foxtel - every race.

https://www.americascup.com/en/prada-cup

Starting to get excited. It tickles my Kiwi roots. Yahgoddaluvit..!

 

[jungpeter]

The relaxation of the Rules governed by the America's Cup Deed of Gift allowed onboard stored energy sources (small internal combustion (2010), hydraulic (2013 and 2017) and now battery (2021) to provide motive power to allow fly-by-wire control of virtually ALL systems aboard the AC boats. The "sailors" aboard these days simply provide additional muscle power to supplement this stored energy, and limited sail trim and steering control. Athletes? Arguably, yes. Athletic SAILORS? Nah. Bring on the cyclists. Only the helmsman and the "systems controller" need to know a whit about sailing.

The next step? Autonomy, for sure. Interest? Only amongst those non-sailors that are enamored of technology, who probably grew up with a game box controller in their hands.

While the current implementation of the America's Cup is in its infancy, and fraught with all sorts of technical challenges to make the current monohulls function as designed (note I don't say "sail as designed"), I fully expect the evolution (devolution?) of the Cup to reach full autonomy in a very few years. It will then become the true media event it aspires to. More power ($$$) to the advertisers, to heck with "sailing". Might as well compete in slot cars or sailplanes.

And ditto with the current Vende Globe solo circumnavigation. These boats are nearer to full autonomy than the AC boats, given they include not only onboard auxiliary-driven stored energy, but are also highly computer-controlled with such features as auto-trim. A far cry from a "sailing event", in my opinion. I've often wondered why a solo sailor would put up with endless days of being bashed around in a wet, cold washing machine on the Vende Globe, knowing full well he/she could be easily replaced with a simple data link.

Regards,

Pete

 

[mvweebles]

Jungpeter - did you watch the Prada challenger races last week? I fully understand your point - my wife would be nodding her head with you so hard her glasses would fall off.

But if it all comes down to the boat, computer programs, and technology in general, why do the results vary so much? And how does Team NZ, a country of 5m people do so consistently well? Sure, UAE is a big investor, but by all rights, USA should walk away with this which simply hasn't happened.

Ditto Formula 1 and Indy car racing. I'm sure they all have their critics.

In the meantime, I love the new formats and technology. Up-close camera angles are awesome.

 

[Peter B]

Sigh...you're right Peter. These folk who poo-hoo these developments - there's a name for them you know - luddites...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dic... Luddite argued that automation destroys jobs.

 

[darkside]

It's still a sailing event. No human could keep a 75ft monohull foiling on foils designed for such pace (and therefore less stability) so computers are needed. If you want to watch 25 or 30kn boats with much more stable foils then for sure you could ditch the computer. Peter Burling, Ben Anslie, Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill are there for a reason.
Even though the cyclors were a big help last time does that add to the spectacle compared to a bit of battery power? Not for me.
NZ may not rate with the North American posters here as a high tech country but I guarantee if you ask your NA where to build an innovative, go faster, carbon sail boat NZ will be near the top of the list.

As for the Vendee not sure if a "data link" will ever climb a mast in the Southern Ocean to release a jammed halyard lock.

 

[jungpeter]

Hi MVweebles,

But if it all comes down to the boat, computer programs, and technology in general, why do the results vary so much?

If you're talking about the current results of the Prada Cup, the results vary so much because of the immature technology implemented in the present-day AC boats. NO team has had significant head-to-head time on the water necessary to debug the control packages aboard their respective boats. Thus, single errors lead to monstrous lead changes and poof-race over. This will inevitably change as the present-day AC event matures in the coming months. Hopefully, this will lead to something more akin to actual sailboat racing, vs simply a made-for-media event, designed and promoted by the sponsors to make money for themselves via TV advertising, and tourism dollars.

And how does Team NZ, a country of 5m people do so consistently well? Sure, UAE is a big investor, but by all rights, USA should walk away with this which simply hasn't happened."

It's a long way to the AC finals. Check back then. And remember, we live in a truly universal technical world via the WWW. NZ's access to that technology is every bit as common as other teams. And yes, the current Deed of Gift, and UAE sponsorship guarantees that.

Peter B:

Sigh...you're right Peter. These folk who poo-hoo these developments - there's a name for them you know - luddites...

Mea maxima culpa. PARTICULARLY amongst us luddites with a strong sailing background, that have actually participated in true sailing at an international level. And those of us that can seperate the "gee-whiz technology" elements of the current AC from actual competitive (ie-person-to-person) sailing. I simply decry the substitution of mechanical (on-board stored energy, for instance) and computer-aided technology for what has historically been a very personal (and human) endeavor.

Darkside:

No human could keep a 75ft monohull foiling on foils designed for such pace (and therefore less stability) so computers are needed.

My point exactly. So why bother with pesky humans?

If you want to watch 25 or 30kn boats with much more stable foils then for sure you could ditch the computer.

Uh, actually not. Passive foiling was first developed by Alexander Graham Bell in 1906. And that technology certainly has not progressed far from his original concept, and is essentially dead.

Peter Burling, Ben Anslie, Dean Barker and Jimmy Spithill are there for a reason.

Yes, and their cohorts (Andrew Campbell, et al, their "system controllers"). Not so much the other guys. Adjust the Deed of Gift a bit to again allow larger motive power packs aboard, and "the other guys" become redundant.

I guarantee if you ask your NA where to build an innovative, go faster, carbon sail boat NZ will be near the top of the list.

Can't disagree here. NZ has a significant boat building history and capability.
But that list is long. Personally, I'll simply call up Jim Betts in Annacortes.

Regards,

Pete

 

[mvweebles]

Well Pete, I find this racing incredibly interesting. I totally get the point about heavy dose of technology, and its not just a rich-mans sport these days (let's be fair - always has been), but a technology duel as well.

My wife is firmly in your camp. I will let her know she has back-up and can expect company in the glass-half-empty line.

Peter

 

[darkside]

Actually yes. Plenty of foiling craft on our harbours down here hitting 20kn and more with no computer flight control.
Rumour has it that TNZ hit 56kn yesterday, a good effort for a group of guys that don't need to know how to sail.
They seem to be easing the handbrake off a notch now the play races are over.

 

[PacificBlue]

It’s becoming a bit boring and NASCAR-ish, but need some rubbing, scraping, maybe even crashing (without personal injury of course) to make it a bit more interesting for the masses.

 

[Hippocampus]

No question Betts does excellent boats. But feel the need to speak up for NEB being a east coast guy. Be interesting to see how that yard goes with the two changes in corporate ownership.

 

[Creek]

I'm mostly a traditionalist about boats (I have accepted fiberglass into my life however) but I think the foil racing in the AC is good for these reasons:
1. It's like watching Usain Bolt run the 100 - it's exciting to watch!
2. The old mono-hull races failed to excite the public, but the AC75 boats once again get people interested in sailboat racing.

3. As the moon program brought us integrated circuitry and auto and motorcycle racing brought us advanced materials and design, AC75 racing too will bring advancements that benefit us all. By the way, windsurfers already are available to to the general public with foils, so the technology is currently available to the public.

 

[Peter B]

+1

That indeed, is the way to look at it. Just think of how many folk, initially attracted to the excitement of the event, as it televises so well, will have their imagination stirred, and think, "hey, this sailing thing thing looks fun." Then they will go about getting a more user friendly and affordable way of doing it. Win-win all round..!

 

[OldDan1943]

for me, it is better to watch it from a distance. The snack are closer and better and less expensive.
AND with the video is better than sitting in the grandstands at the whims of the weather trying to see what is going on, from a distance. Plus, they can replace the exciting parts.

 

[Peter B]

Aaaooo...aaaooo....aaaooo...the racing has started..!

Team UK have astoundingly just beaten Team USA in the first of the Prada elimination series. Not expected at all on past performance. They have really been doing their homework, and found some real speed..! Wow - what a race..!

 

[Peter B]

Ok, this is really interesting. Prada Pirelli, (team Italy) just got beaten by Team UK (Ineos Britannia) as well. The Brits are back..! Maybe they might re-take the cup, about 170 years after first losing it..? I wouldn't mind NZ losing it if that was to be the outcome.

 

[mvweebles]

YouTube of full Day 1 racing for Prada Cup

https://youtu.be/ne-covgb3ao

 

[FF]

' No human could keep a 75ft monohull foiling on foils designed for such pace (and therefore less stability) so computers are needed."

Perhaps more advanced foils will not require a computer to function.

Speed and stability are different design functions , increasing one does not automatically reduce the other.

Would there be any interest in auto racing if the driver was simply the lightest person carried in the car while computers actually operated the car?

 

[Hippocampus]

' No human could keep a 75ft monohull foiling on foils designed for such pace (and therefore less stability) so computers are needed."

Perhaps more advanced foils will not require a computer to function.

Speed and stability are different design functions , increasing one does not automatically reduce the other.

Would there be any interest in auto racing if the driver was simply the lightest person carried in the car while computers actually operated the car?

Great post +1

 

[mvweebles]

The YoutTube I posted is 3-hour coverage of the entire race yesterday. Halfway through there's a long-ish montage of NYYC historical (and coveted) Cup wins to Dennis Connor's loss/return of the Cup with 'Stars & Stripes' in the 1980s. The clip credits Connor with changing the Cup with year-round training and 2-boat campaign with professional sponsorship. I would have enjoyed seeing more of the open-ocean racing they did with spinnakers flying. That said, the 2013 Cup in San Francisco was amazing - first time the crews wore helmets I believe.

I realize these sleds are technological marvels - hitting 40+ kts in 12-knots of breeze is incredible. But lets be fair - the margin for error is much narrower in this format, and the penalty for mistakes much greater. How about comparing to racing with no technology - horse racing. By the naysayer's logic, the best horse should win regardless of who the jockey is - as FF notes, simply the lightest person in the stable. I can assure you, a jockey is not fungible.

As always, the 2-minutes before race start are still fascinating. But in fast-forward mode.

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

So nice to sit in the A/C, out of the weather and watch the race from above .... those lines pass by quickly.
I notice the chase boats are not always keeping up with the sail boats. LOL
The race was basically won at the start. NZ forced the other boat to 'not the best' position to recover. Tactics