The Sinking Of The Norwester

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MurrayM said:
Welcome aboard...wish it was under better circumstances.

Your vessel is beautiful/ruggedly handsome :thumb: :thumb:

"skookum maru" - Google Search
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Thanks MurrayM. She's a great boat for sure. The perfect Salish cruiser, if you like slow wooden boats that is. More info here if anyone is interested:

https://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?252296-Skookum-Maru

But back to Norwester for a moment. There is more recent information on a Facebook post on the Wooden Boat Form group that I made right after it happened.

Log into Facebook

And this link should show the diver video:

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

Note though that I have no direct knowledge of the incident or the current status of the salvage efforts. I'm just reporting what I've heard from those who are directly involved.
 
Tried posting this but doesn't look like it is showing up. Hopefully this one be a duplicate post...

MurrayM said:
Welcome aboard...wish it was under better circumstances.

Your vessel is beautiful/ruggedly handsome :thumb: :thumb:

"skookum maru" - Google Search
Click to expand...

Thanks MurrayM. She's a great boat for sure. The perfect Salish cruiser, if you like slow wooden boats that is. More info here if anyone is interested:

Skookum Maru

But back to Norwester for a moment. There is more recent information on a Facebook post on the Wooden Boat Form group that I made right after it happened.

Log into Facebook

And this link should show the diver video:

Dropbox - File Deleted - Simplify your life

Note though that I have no direct knowledge of the incident or the current status of the salvage efforts. I'm just reporting what I've heard from those who are directly involved.

And yes, I agree that we all share an interest in learning how to avoid a similar fate for our vessels. Sometimes though the group mind tends to focus on all the mistakes made, real or imagined, rather than the reality that this is not an academic exercise to the people involved. I imagine how I would feel if that were Skookum Maru with my family aboard....
 
Looks like my posts are bring moderated. Possibly because I shared a link to the Facebook post that has more recent info on Norwester? I'll respond with more details when I can.
 
clstevens said:
Looks like my posts are bring moderated. Possibly because I shared a link to the Facebook post that has more recent info on Norwester? I'll respond with more details when I can.
Click to expand...

I don't know about that as there are limitations put on new members, such as not being able to post pictures until after 10 posts or so.

Looking forward to updates, thanks.
 
Well, in that case... MurrayM you linked earlier to some photos of our boat, Skookum Maru. She's a great boat for sure. The perfect Salish cruiser, if you like slow wooden boats that is. More info here if anyone is interested:

Skookum Maru

I know she's been featured before as her previous owner is a TF member, so she may be familiar to some.

But back to Norwester for a moment. There is more recent information on a Facebook post on the Wooden Boat Form group that I made right after it happened. I'll try to link to it but it may not be visible to anyone who is not a member of that group. However there has been quite a bit of discussion on it, including posts from some of the people involved in the salvage effort.

One thing worth noting is that one of the owners mentioned that they had updated their electronic charts the day before and the update did not show the rock that they hit. It's clearly shown on paper charts and shows up on both the vector and raster charts that I checked, but if it really is missing then that's a significant concern. And it also calls out the importance of local knowledge and/or multiple sources for piloting and chart information in this area. There are many, many places to go aground.

Which reminds me of a useful chart of the San Juans that I got from the Port of Friday Harbor a few years ago. It's not at all detailed and you would never use it for navigation, but it shows the "11 Frequently Hit Rocks or Reefs in the San Juans". And sure enough, "Prevost Harbor Reefs" are called out. No substitute for a good chart well-studied of course, but still everyone cruising this area should have a copy by the helm.
 
Back to Norwester for a moment. There is more recent information on a Facebook post on the Wooden Boat Form group that I made right after it happened. I'll try to link to it once I'm allowed but it may not be visible to anyone who is not a member of that group. However there has been quite a bit of discussion on it, including posts from some of the people involved in the salvage effort.

One thing worth noting is that one of the owners mentioned that they had updated their electronic charts the day before and the update did not show the rock that they hit. It's clearly shown on paper charts and shows up on both the vector and raster charts that I checked, but if it really is missing then that's a significant concern. And it also calls out the importance of local knowledge and/or multiple sources for piloting and chart information in this area. There are many, many places to go aground.

Which reminds me of a useful chart of the San Juans that I got from the Port of Friday Harbor a few years ago. It's not at all detailed and you would never use it for navigation, but it shows the "11 Frequently Hit Rocks or Reefs in the San Juans". And sure enough, "Prevost Harbor Reefs" are called out. No substitute for a good chart well-studied of course, but still everyone cruising this area should have a copy by the helm.
 
Posts Approved

clstevens said:
Looks like my posts are bring moderated. Possibly because I shared a link to the Facebook post that has more recent info on Norwester? I'll respond with more details when I can.
Click to expand...

The TF software filters new member posts with links in order to catch and prevent scammers.
I approved the posts and will extend a welcome to TF.
Sorry for any inconvenience or misunderstanding.

The Site Team
 
Bacchus said:
The TF software filters new member posts with links in order to catch and prevent scammers.
I approved the posts and will extend a welcome to TF.
Sorry for any inconvenience or misunderstanding.

The Site Team
Click to expand...

Thanks Bacchus. It's a good policy. No harm, no inconvenience. And now of course I have spammed the thread with multiple duplicate posts. Sorry everyone.
 
I have be anchored in Reid Harbor the past two days and walk my dog morning and night over to Prevost. I have seen no activity of any kind, on or around Northwester. Not sure what is going to happen when we have the next big blow. It's about 2/3 underwater now. No environmental concerns?
 
Russell Clifton said:
I have be anchored in Reid Harbor the past two days and walk my dog morning and night over to Prevost. I have seen no activity of any kind, on or around Northwester. Not sure what is going to happen when we have the next big blow. It's about 2/3 underwater now. No environmental concerns?
Click to expand...

Based on information posted by the owners on Facebook my understanding is that the tanks have been removed. However I have no direct knowledge of what they are doing beyond what they have shared. There is more information on the sinking and salvage efforts here:

https://www.facebook.com/ChannelSurfing/

And here

https://www.facebook.com/groups/45928256385/permalink/10157582459286386
 
The diver video is pretty amazing. I haven't seen the results of many boats that hit rocks, but it looks like the Norwester pretty much fell apart on impact. Does that seem normal to people? The boat had just come out of a refit, so I would expect a pretty sturdy hull, but I guess not?
 
twistedtree said:
The diver video is pretty amazing. I haven't seen the results of many boats that hit rocks, but it looks like the Norwester pretty much fell apart on impact. Does that seem normal to people? The boat had just come out of a refit, so I would expect a pretty sturdy hull, but I guess not?
Click to expand...

I didn't watch the video all the way through, but it looks like pumps couldn't have kept up even if they were onboard and ready to go at the moment of impact.

76' of boat is a lot of weight/momentum/energy.

Not much wiggle room or margin for error with a wooden hull.
 
MurrayM said:
I didn't watch the video all the way through, but it looks like pumps couldn't have kept up even if they were onboard and ready to go at the moment of impact.

76' of boat is a lot of weight/momentum/energy.

Not much wiggle room or margin for error with a wooden hull.
Click to expand...


I was one of the people wondering why external pumps weren't brought in, and the video certainly makes it clear why.


Again, I'm no expert, but I think in many way a solid wooden boat may be more resilient than glass, if for no other reason than they have a bit more give to them.


One very interesting project going on at the yard where we are has been the removal and replacement of the "undercarriage" of a house boat. The original was a self-powered barge that the house boat was built on. Years ago the shaft and prop were removed, but the DD 671 engine was still in it, along with fuel tanks etc. They literally cut the barge out from under the house about a cubic foot at a time, then lifted the house with a travel lift and placed it on a new welded aluminum barge. But man was that barge built. Yes, it had some badly rotted sections, but it was 2" thick planking on probably 6"x6" ribs. And the keel was solid wood, encased in plate steel that was still in great shape and probably 1/4" thick. A guy spend probably a full week cutting up just the keel. If that encountered a rock, the rock would have lost. No doubt about it.
 
clstevens said:
.....
One thing worth noting is that one of the owners mentioned that they had updated their electronic charts the day before and the update did not show the rock that they hit. It's clearly shown on paper charts and shows up on both the vector and raster charts that I checked, but if it really is missing then that's a significant concern. And it also calls out the importance of local knowledge and/or multiple sources for piloting and chart information in this area. There are many, many places to go aground.
.....
Click to expand...


I've gotten into a tussel more that once on the subject of using non official hydrographic charts. I've seen errors of omission on Navionics and C-MAP charts. I will use those when convenient but not without checking NOAA charts in the US and CHS charts in Canada.

The San Juans are well charted and rocks unlike sand and mud don't move. Had they been using NOAA charts, raster or vector, they would have been aware of the rocks.
 
I find the "it wasn't on the charts" statement very difficult to believe. It would be interesting to hear exactly what charts don't show the shallows there. The NOAA vector and raster charts clearly show it, and they are the basis for all the other chart vendors. C-map shows it. But I don't currently have access to Navionics, so perhaps someone else could confirm that? And I guess Garmin is the other typical suspect.
 
twistedtree said:
I find the "it wasn't on the charts" statement very difficult to believe. It would be interesting to hear exactly what charts don't show the shallows there. The NOAA vector and raster charts clearly show it, and they are the basis for all the other chart vendors. C-map shows it. But I don't currently have access to Navionics, so perhaps someone else could confirm that? And I guess Garmin is the other typical suspect.
Click to expand...

A very few years ago I helped pull a 45' sailboat off rocks East of Gabriola passage. I was there in my dinghy, with C-Map charts. I also had my cellphone, with Navionics. Neither put a rock under this sailboat, but there was no doubt where we were.
Back at my boat, my CHS charts on my Computer, displayed by my CAPN program, clearly showed the rocks exactly where the sailboat rested on them.
I noted that inaccuracy on my dinghy plotter and on my phone, but there was little else to be done. Local knowledge rules.
I have watched the diver video on the Northwester. What a disaster. That boat won't float again. My sympathies to the owner.
 
Anyone have a link to the diver vid? I don't have facebook.

A wood boat that age (like 90yr old) will become fragile as it ages. Even an extensive refit will not reverse all the aging effects.
 
Navionics shows the rocks. I to am having a hard time with the “it didn’t show on my chart” statement.
 
Portage_Bay said:
I've gotten into a tussel more that once on the subject of using non official hydrographic charts. I've seen errors of omission on Navionics and C-MAP charts. I will use those when convenient but not without checking NOAA charts in the US and CHS charts in Canada.

The San Juans are well charted and rocks unlike sand and mud don't move. Had they been using NOAA charts, raster or vector, they would have been aware of the rocks.
Click to expand...

Things like that are why any time I'm in even slightly unfamiliar waters, I run with 2 different charts up. Usually Navionics on the plotter and NOAA raster charts on a laptop next to the helm. Gives me a better shot at not missing anything.
 
I understand the skepticism around the "it didn't show up on the chart" claim. I have no knowledge of that one way or another. But just to show that it's not out of the question, here are two recent electronic chart images of the area in question.

Garmin chart view from one of the first responders on the scene. The reef is clearly shown to the north of Charles Pt.

51151848275_18fe856e3c_c.jpg


(photo by ChannelSurfing)

and this is from a C-Map chart of the same area. No reef is shown.

51150976803_5f7d999528_o.jpg


(photo by Paul Kube)

I don't know whether the reef would show on the C-Map chart at a higher resolution but even if so I would have concerns using the C-Map chart. The NOAA charts show it at every resolution that could reasonably used for navigation.

There are plenty of lessons to be learned here. Using multiple charts is one. Always have a NOAA chart as one source is another. Local knowledge is always good to have and if you don't have it, get whatever knowledge you can from cruising and piloting guides before entering a new harbor or transiting a new passage.

Those are all useful things to discuss. But often these threads turn into nothing more than a murder of crows coming out to pick the eyeballs off the carcass. That's an ugly thing to watch. The comments on Facebook have gone beyond brutal and well into abusive. So it's worth asking before one posts whether the post is a) based on actual knowledge rather than random speculation and b) whether the post is focused on improving safety or is it just schadenfreude.
 
Clstevens, that’s a really interesting c-map screen shot. What is the displaying device? And any chance you know the vintage of the charts?

I have c-map charts on Coastal Explorer that are probably 5 years old and they clearly show the shallows in that area. Your screen shot is quite different from what mine shows. I’ll try to post a screen shot later this evening.
 
twistedtree said:
Clstevens, that’s a really interesting c-map screen shot. What is the displaying device? And any chance you know the vintage of the charts?
Click to expand...

I think chart vintage and display type are important. There are a lot of old charts out there. Transducer location if any would also be interesting. Most are well aft of midship so are of little use in a sharply rising reef.

The boat must have hit hard to peel the keel back. Keels can be replaced. Planks can be replaced. interior wood can be replaced. Engines can be replaced. But insurance coverage probably won't come close to the actual costs.
 
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