Thoughts on riding sails and rigging

[Fish53]

That's just a photo of some Norwegian fishing boats I found online for an example.

 

[rslifkin]

The key to rigging a riding sail does seem to be having a mast of some form. So I'm thinking that coming up with a way to rig one on a boat not intended to carry any form of sails or rigging is just not going to happen. Unless someone comes up with a brilliant idea.

 

[Fish53]

The key to rigging a riding sail does seem to be having a mast of some form. So I'm thinking that coming up with a way to rig one on a boat not intended to carry any form of sails or rigging is just not going to happen. Unless someone comes up with a brilliant idea.

While there may be certain design issues particular to some boats I don't see where a simple mast step and some stays present any real engineering challenges. A riding sail gains efficiency and thus can be made smaller as it's area moves aft, a position where many boats have at least a small amount of deck space. I realize there may also be convenience and esthetic considerations for many but like a lot of things in boating there exists compromises which are an individual choice. It's worth considering also that many riding sails are not on the centerline of the boat and still work effectively and with a rigid enough mast and mounting may not even require stays, also a simple way to furl and unfurl would be handy for times the sail isn't needed.

 

[Shrew]

It's not uncommon where I am (Maine) for lobster boats to have a riding sail and I've seen a couple of more traditional powerboats with one. I'm currently rigging one for my boat both to point her into the wind and to dampen the roll a little when underway. Very common on many European fishing vessels.View attachment 106661

The stay sails in these images are to reduce rolling in beam seas. Those vessels aren't at anchor.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Shrew,
They needn't be at anchor for the picture.
Can you take a picture of a racing car on a residential street or does it need to be on a racetrack?

 

[Phil Enscoe]

Bud, do use the staysail to reduce roll while cruising. If so, how does it work?

 

[bshanafelt]

my boat is equipped with a mast and boom - ostensibly for putting the dinghy on the saloon roof.

I utilize the small sail shown as a riding sail when at anchor in windy conditions.

I find that instead of almost a 180 degree arc without the sail deployed, the arc is reduced to something around 80- 90 degrees.

This takes away the full beam to wave effect that is quite annoying.

 

[Fish53]

The stay sails in these images are to reduce rolling in beam seas. Those vessels aren't at anchor.

As I stated in reference to my own boat it's to point the vessel into the wind regardless of whether adrift or at anchor and to mitigate roll to some extent. A riding sail will have limited ability to dampen roll, that's the chore of a steadying sail although the two can be of use for both tasks to a varied degree. It would be a mistake to only think of a riding sail as a tool for better behavior at anchor, there are numerous circumstances where it may be very desirable to have one. If you've ever lost power in any sort of a sea aboard a vessel that wants to lay side to you would immediately see the value.

 

[AUXOPdwp]

My boat "hunts" terribly at anchor. I've found that having a drag weight off the bow with almost zero scope slows the rate of fall off and allows the stern to catch up and the bow to change direction. While the hunting isn't eliminated, it is greatly reduced. Currently I'm using 30 pounds of scuba diving weights. Would like to try a mushroom anchor of about that size.

Ted

Good instincts! You're explaining what Earl Hinz defines as a Hammerlock Moor in his book. He says:

This moor is designed to reduce the sheering motion of a boat in strong, gusty winds. In this situation neither a riding sail nor the use of the rudder can be expected to have much effect in steadying the boat while excessive loads are being put on the ground tackle and the anchor's set is severely tested.This sheering back and forth is called "horsing" (Fig 9-10A). Much of the violent motion that occurs during horsing can be eliminated through the use of a second anchor which is dropped underfoot on a short scope, putting a "hammerlock" on the horsing. This snubbing anchor will reduce the yawing considerably, resulting in less strain on the ground tackle. Fig 9-10B illustrates the hammerlock moor in action.

If the storm develops increased violence, you may want to consider raising the second anchor and re-dropping it at the limit of sheer but still on a short scope. You will now have a bridle to the bow which will minimize most of the undesirable horsing action of the boat. The main wind load will still be taken by the bow anchor. Should there be a significant change in wind direction, the snubbing anchor will, most likely, drag into a new position but will still tend to its job of controlling horsing. This is one of the few instances where dragging an anchor is part of your anchor plan. When an anchor is permitted to drag it is called drudging.

Another use of the hammerlock moor prevent your boat from swinging into a hazard should the wind change and you do not have a complete swing circle available.

In using the hammerlock moor, it should be clearly understood that the bow anchor takes the wind loads and the snubbing anchor prevents unwanted yawing of the boat. For this reason the snubbing anchor can be a smaller anchor but it must be one that can set itself in the type of bottom you have since there will be no time to set it leisurely as you did with your bow anchor.
​

I find the 12# or 18# versions of s/s folding Northill to be quite suitable for this purpose, i.e. light enough to toss and self setting.






Don
Semper Paratus

 

[backinblue]

Left adrift with a breeze and absent other influences such as current, the normal attitude for most boats such as ours will be to ride perpendicular to the wind. It is not like a weather vane that will point-up into the wind. Windage forward or abaft will influence the final angle, but for the most part, the boat wants to be perpendicular to the wind. "Sailing" at anchor is the tension of the boat trying to go perpendicular and eventually having the bow snapped through the wind by the anchor. Rinse/repeat. Heavier boats that sit lower and deeper in the water are slower to 'sail' and gather less momentum.

A riding sail will help, but will not eliminate the problem. Many sailors try them. Most give up saying it's surprisingly hard to rig and not worth the effort.

Peter

I disagree. On my last 2 sailboats, a riding sail was one of my most favored pieces of equipment. Very easy to rig and very effective at keeping the bow into the wind with very little side to side movement. It doesn't seem as practical or even possible for power boats, but it it were, I'd be the first in line.

 

[Fish53]

A very similar technique I've used to maintain position over structure of a limited size that offers good fishing. It was taught to me by an old Nova Scotian who called it a "kellet", although not exactly what an anchor kellet is you can see the similarity. We caught many nice codfish rigged like that using a bundle of window weights as the "kellet". While this serves the purpose stated rather nicely it could also be considered and adjunct to a riding sail rather than a complete replacement, one complimenting the other. I also used a 12' parachute sea anchor for a similar purpose in deep water which the riding sail helped with also. Another interesting option is one many use when tuna fishing in water deeper than most would consider anchoring, say 10 to 30 fathom where a poly ball is rigged on the anchor rode about double the length boat from the bow. This allows dropping the rode quickly to fight a fish and seems to dampen swinging when on the anchor. I've never tried it in normal anchoring but I might some day.

 

[Fish53]

I disagree. On my last 2 sailboats, a riding sail was one of my most favored pieces of equipment. Very easy to rig and very effective at keeping the bow into the wind with very little side to side movement. It doesn't seem as practical or even possible for power boats, but it it were, I'd be the first in line.

I saw a similar comment earlier and am having a hard time seeing where the rigging of a riding sail on a powerboat presents such a monumental problem? My previous comment on this is on 33.

 

[rslifkin]

I saw a similar comment earlier and am having a hard time seeing where the rigging of a riding sail on a powerboat presents such a monumental problem?

It depends on the boat. Some provide a decent way to rig one, others not so much (either no mast / rigging or the mast is too far forward for a riding sail to point the boat effectively).

 

[Fish53]

It depends on the boat. Some provide a decent way to rig one, others not so much (either no mast / rigging or the mast is too far forward for a riding sail to point the boat effectively).

I have a hard time imagining too many configurations of boats that a mast couldn't be rigged somewhere near the stern if indeed one wanted to. I suppose that's the real issue, "if indeed one wanted to", not wanting one doesn't exclude the possibility that one could be.

 

[Bryant]

Riding sails

Many of us here have boats that are "less than well behaved" at anchor in gusty winds. I know on my boat it's an issue of windage being too far forward, as putting the full aft canvas up helps the issue a bit.

Based on that, let's give some thought to riding sails and how to rig one in an effective location (far enough aft) and with an effective shape. Particularly for those of us without masts.

I have a feeling the answer may come to "it's just not practical", but let's see what we can come up with.

I'm thinking one option for those with davits would be a pair of sails rigged from the outer corners of the transom / rail to the davits to help the stern get pushed back in line when swinging off the wind.

I've never used a riding sail while at anchor, although I have one. I've found that letting out significant'y more chain than required reduces hunting almost entirely. If you're in a crowded anchorage and don't have the luxury of letting out that much rode then it seems to me the pure physics of the thing would significantly reduce hunting. I've been intending to try mine out sometime just to see. If it actually works, I'm going to have a local sailmaker sew me a really pretty one that reflects the name of my boat.

I will relate one humorous story. I once had a conversation with a very early employee of Grand Banks, back when cruising trawlers were kind of new the the market. He told me that the mast and riding sail were marketing ploys to lure older sailboat owners out of their sailboats and into trawlers and that they had virtually no other measurable benefit. I don't know if that's true but but it's an interesting story.

 

[Fish53]

I've never used a riding sail while at anchor, although I have one. I've found that letting out significant'y more chain than required reduces hunting almost entirely. If you're in a crowded anchorage and don't have the luxury of letting out that much rode then it seems to me the pure physics of the thing would significantly reduce hunting. I've been intending to try mine out sometime just to see. If it actually works, I'm going to have a local sailmaker sew me a really pretty one that reflects the name of my boat.

I will relate one humorous story. I once had a conversation with a very early employee of Grand Banks, back when cruising trawlers were kind of new the the market. He told me that the mast and riding sail were marketing ploys to lure older sailboat owners out of their sailboats and into trawlers and that they had virtually no other measurable benefit. I don't know if that's true but but it's an interesting story.

I would think the existing mast and boom on your boat would be a bit too far forward and require a sizable sail to work well. Not useless at all but could be improved upon by erecting a mast as far aft as practical. The mast, sail and rigging could then be smaller and more easily removed when not needed. I had an Albin 36 double cabin that had a similar mast and boom, I rigged a small mast salvaged and cut down from a 16 ft. sailboat and experimented with sails made from tarp. My best result was with a gaff rig and 24 square feet of sail. The entire thing could be put up in less than ten minutes and removed in five. I placed it about a foot forward from the transom and four feet to port from the centerline. I sold the boat last year and regret taking no pictures, the whole thing cost pennies but I never had a proper sail made either.

 

[Bryant]

Riding sail

Interesting.

My riding sail is enormous. I'm going to guess 50 or more square ft. Like I said, I've never used it but I think that because of it's size it just might work. Now I'm intrigued so the next time I anchor out I'm going to try it just out of morbid curiosity.

BTW, do you live on Pitcairn Island of Bounty fame?

 

[Fish53]

Interesting.

My riding sail is enormous. I'm going to guess 50 or more square ft. Like I said, I've never used it but I think that because of it's size it just might work. Now I'm intrigued so the next time I anchor out I'm going to try it just out of morbid curiosity.

Hopefully it's flat, in any event rig it as tight as you can or the flapping will drive you nuts, especially in the aft cabin.

 

[Bryant]

riding sail

LOL. Thanks for the advice. I will. Otherwise I'd be out on deck in my skivvies late at night taking it down after a berating from my wife about 'why the hell I put that thing up in the first place".

 

[Fish53]

LOL. Thanks for the advice. I will. Otherwise I'd be out on deck in my skivvies late at night taking it down after a berating from my wife about 'why the hell I put that thing up in the first place".

That's why I'm single.

 

[Bryant]

riding sail

Are you on Pitcairn Island or is that the name of the city where you live? Interested.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I was in a crowded anchorage in 25 knot winds a couple of weeks ago and watched he various paths of different boats. I threw out my sea anchor from the stern just for jollies. It was out on about 10 feet of line, so when swinging side-to-side, the boat had about 20 feet of play where the stern could gain momentum before the sea anchor had any effect. It only helped a little.

I didn't have an anchor bridle and that is what I've been working on; controlling the swing from the bow. But based on this thread, it looks like it might be possible to attach a sea anchor right under the surface where the bridle would attach to the anchor chain. It would have an effect similar to a second anchor on the bottom and might react even faster to reduce swinging. It would be easier to deploy and remove. Plus, sweeping the bottom with a little anchor might catch all kinds of old logging tackle.

 

[Bryant]

riding sail

I was in a crowded anchorage in 25 knot winds a couple of weeks ago and watched he various paths of different boats. I threw out my sea anchor from the stern just for jollies. It was out on about 10 feet of line, so when swinging side-to-side, the boat had about 20 feet of play where the stern could gain momentum before the sea anchor had any effect. It only helped a little.

I didn't have an anchor bridle and that is what I've been working on; controlling the swing from the bow. But based on this thread, it looks like it might be possible to attach a sea anchor right under the surface where the bridle would attach to the anchor chain. It would have an effect similar to a second anchor on the bottom and might react even faster to reduce swinging. It would be easier to deploy and remove. Plus, sweeping the bottom with a little anchor might catch all kinds of old logging tackle.

I have an anchor bridle from Mantus anchors. In my opinion it's a bit long but they assure me that it's the correct length for my boat. I will say that since I've started using it, my boat has essentially stopped hunting. I don't know if that's because of the bridle or because it forces me to let out so much chain because of it's length, but it works. My boat doesn't hunt at all now, and it used to.

 

[backinblue]

I saw a similar comment earlier and am having a hard time seeing where the rigging of a riding sail on a powerboat presents such a monumental problem? My previous comment on this is on 33.

A sailboat already has everything you need except the sail itself. All you do is clip the sail to the back-stay and raise with a halyard, tie the front to the boom/mast junction and you're done. Takes less than 2 mins. Boat stays straight into the wind and barely moves at all. Not saying something couldn't be rigged for different power boats but it is not obviously apparent as on a sailboat. For my Mainship Pilot, I'll likely just deal with the sailing at anchor. It's not that excessive, and I don't want to go to great lengths to construct something that may or may not help much.

 

[Kurplunk]

We sometimes use a stay sail on our trawler. It helps keep our bow into the wind when anchored or drifting. Depends on the conditions. Our vessel was pretty much rigged except for the halyard which we installed. We bought a used sail from bacon sails for $50.
Bud

Bud it would be very interesting to see a few pitcures of your riggings.

 

[markpierce]

I saw a similar comment earlier and am having a hard time seeing where the rigging of a riding sail on a powerboat presents such a monumental problem? My previous comment on this is on 33.

Likely a pain if a fisherman.

 

[Phil23]

Hi changing the topic to dog sneakers rslifkin can you please tell me where you got yours, I have a labradoodle who loves the boat and is very sea wise however due to a recent accident has trouble on the decks now with a tendency to slip a lot, would love to try them

 

[psneeld]

While the can sometimes used as both, the typical mast, boom and sail on a trawler is really a steadying sail versus a riding sail.

If like on my trawler, where the boom extends all the way to the transom, a smaller sail clipped all the way aft may work as a riding sail.

 

[rslifkin]

Hi changing the topic to dog sneakers rslifkin can you please tell me where you got yours, I have a labradoodle who loves the boat and is very sea wise however due to a recent accident has trouble on the decks now with a tendency to slip a lot, would love to try them

I can't remember the brand, but they came from Amazon

 

[Fish53]

Likely a pain if a fisherman.

I am a commercial fisherman, for over forty years.