Tow Request - What would you do?

[SoWhat]

I believe it is our responsibility as mariners to offer assistance When faced with a life jeopardizing emergency when able to do so without jeadorizing our our safety. So is very fact specific obviously and if OP did not feel right at that time under those conditions then he made the right call.

Otherwise, call USCG or SeaTow. Times have changed. We live in a very litigiousness society now.

 

[Max1]

If I had a nickle for every time I have laid an anchor down in the bottom of the dinghy and rowed it out to deep water to kedge off a grounded boat, then I would have a couple of dollars at least. Don't people know how to do that anymore???


Bill (old curmudgeon, I suppose)

Can anybody explain what this kedging is? Or and how it is done? I have never heard of it but it sounds like something to have in the gray matter database in case something like this ever happens to me. Any comments or explanation would be welcomed

 

[rslifkin]

Can anybody explain what this kedging is? Or and how it is done? I have never heard of it but it sounds like something to have in the gray matter database in case something like this ever happens to me. Any comments or explanation would be welcomed

Kedging would generally involve dinghying an anchor with a fairly long rode out in the direction you want to go. You set the anchor, then use a winch on the boat to pull the boat towards the anchor.

 

[Mac G]

Yes.
The same technique you would use to set a second offset anchor for yourself if conditions warranted.
Dink the anchor well out to wherever you determine to be adequate scope and then slowly lower it as you row back in the direction of the subject boat letting out rode to allow the rode to lay properly stretched out on the bottom and not jumble up in big piled up mess below.

 

[Cold Duck]

Things are different today with Sea Tow and Vessel Assist. In the old days we did a lot to help each other and given some circumstances we still help out. Heck, the CG would pull vessels off, tow for outta gas etc. Only thing different I would have done is to call CG and just make a report telling them the vessel Name, location, they have a radio and they do have Vessel assist and was in no distress or immediate danger and acknowledge it might put our vessel in danger due to our circumstances. Let the Pros do it, that's what we pay them for. I've towed many disabled vessels with no hesitation, but pulling a grounded vessel is a whole different can of worms especially as everyone has acknowledged we live in a very contigeous society right now.

 

[DavidU]

How's this? Everyone is right. Everyone comes at this from their own background and perspectives so whether they do more or do less because of that is up to them. I do think the attitude that we live in such a "litigious" society is pretty much a cop out to rationalize, for whatever reason, why somebody ultimately does not do something, somewhere, sometime. It's what many use to qualm their own guilt for not doing. I practiced in the medical field for 40+ years (I think that's a pretty litigious venue) and we made mistakes. I found people, when you don't try to BS them, and they recognize you are trying your best to help them and are genuine in that effort, are forgiving in the event of something not going to plan. Did I ever have to financially make good for an error, YES. But was it in court with attorneys, judges and juries, NEVER. Doing what is right by the other party is all people really want. I'm afraid, because everyone is so scared of being sued, all while attempting to do the right thing, has impacted our humanity in such a way that it perpetuates this never ending circle. This is not meant to judge anyone's "I would have" or "I wouldn't have because", it is to remind everyone I think it will be very unusual to be penalized by attempting to do the right thing and helping someone. Karma

 

[psneeld]

The other expression besides "karma" is " no good deed goes unpunished". Guess one uses the one that best fits their last encounter with helping others.

I had 2 careers risking life and limb for other mariners. Help when you can or is appropriate, but putting yourself and family through the stress of legal action or worse... losing life or limb should be considered....at leasr weighed against what would happen if you do or don't help.

Again I am not saying don't try to help... but for most boaters, starting with minimum effort versus maximum effort may be the key to keeping your boating safe and pleasurable.

 

[DavidU]

The other expression besides "karma" is " no good deed goes unpunished". Guess one uses the one that best fits their last encounter with helping others.

I had 2 careers risking life and limb for other mariners. Help when you can or is appropriate, but putting yourself and family through the stress of legal action or worse... losing life or limb should be considered....at leasr weighed against what would happen if you do or don't help.

Again I am not saying don't try to help... but for most boaters, starting with minimum effort versus maximum effort may be the key to keeping your boating safe and pleasurable.

I have lived both. Karma and no good deed. I hear ya. The one thing I have experienced in my life is that the "no good deed goes unpunished" is most frequent, and I've personally found less consequential. I've also lived "good karma" and the rewards outweighed the "no good deeds". We are all different and I'm sure there are others who have experienced the opposite. I agree with not to rush in, be prudent and thoughtful, as I said I think everyone is right here. Lots to consider. My main point is to consider, maybe, people aren't as litigious as you think and it's ok to try if the circumstances warrant. I've also heard "what goes around comes around". I can't imagine with your knowledge and experiences that could ever be you, but I damn sure know it may be me!

 

[psneeld]

I have lived both. Karma and no good deed. I hear ya. The one thing I have experienced in my life is that the "no good deed goes unpunished" is most frequent, and I've personally found less consequential. I've also lived "good karma" and the rewards outweighed the "no good deeds". We are all different and I'm sure there are others who have experienced the opposite. I agree with not to rush in, be prudent and thoughtful, as I said I think everyone is right here. Lots to consider. My main point is to consider, maybe, people aren't as litigious as you think and it's ok to try if the circumstances warrant. I've also heard "what goes around comes around". I can't imagine with your knowledge and experiences that could ever be you, but I damn sure know it may be me!

This is one of those subjects that is hard for me....I had 2 relatively low paying careers in assisting others and doing good things because that was WAY more important to me than the money... and thus my family lived with my decision and are still proud of me.

But I DO have the experience to know that ungrounding boats can be everything from a piece of cake to dang dangerous.

So it is less about "to help or not to help....that is the question" than it is about people feeling obligated to help when like in this case as some pointed out...too many boaters in the same situation as the trimaran should be embarrassed to ask others to help and possibly put them in a bad situation. What is scary is the "hero syndrome ". I know a lot of people that are all over situations like this and one of 2 things happen. They are so gung ho they do something extraordinarily simple and make it into a hero story....or they get in over their heads and screw the pooch. Thus why I am apprehensive to give the green light to some "good deeds".

If one assesses the situation properly, most of the time doing nothing is perfectly OK and if not...the risks probably go up accordingly as the situation creating danger for the other guy is working against you too.

You would be surprised at how many people who you literally saved their lives are pissed at you for taking too long or letting their boat sink, etc...etc...

As I told Roger....self evaluate...take all the opinions offered in this thread and see how good his ultimate decision was. The fact that he got involved at all instead of just ignoring the arm waving (I better not say it as I wasn't there) tri-guy.

I usually try and help in a lot of situations that I come across.... thankfully for stuff like this situation I have a lot of practical experience to apply good risk management. But that same experience tells me to tell the guy just be patient and wait for high tide.

 

[BruceK]

The OP sought opinions but to a great extent,"you had to be there" to assess and judge the situation as it presented in all the circumstances. Roger has defended his actions over suggestions he was in error,suggesting he believes he assessed and acted correctly. And with respect, I think he`s right. The mere fact the tri freed itself in an hour, albeit it`s hindsight, amply supports that.

 

[DavidU]

This is one of those subjects that is hard for me....I had 2 relatively low paying careers in assisting others and doing good things because that was WAY more important to me than the money... and thus my family lived with my decision and are still proud of me.

But I DO have the experience to know that ungrounding boats can be everything from a piece of cake to dang dangerous.

So it is less about "to help or not to help....that is the question" than it is about people feeling obligated to help when like in this case as some pointed out...too many boaters in the same situation as the trimaran should be embarrassed to ask others to help and possibly put them in a bad situation. What is scary is the "hero syndrome ". I know a lot of people that are all over situations like this and one of 2 things happen. They are so gung ho they do something extraordinarily simple and make it into a hero story....or they get in over their heads and screw the pooch. Thus why I am apprehensive to give the green light to some "good deeds".

If one assesses the situation properly, most of the time doing nothing is perfectly OK and if not...the risks probably go up accordingly as the situation creating danger for the other guy is working against you too.

You would be surprised at how many people who you literally saved their lives are pissed at you for taking too long or letting their boat sink, etc...etc...

As I told Roger....self evaluate...take all the opinions offered in this thread and see how good his ultimate decision was. The fact that he got involved at all instead of just ignoring the arm waving (I better not say it as I wasn't there) tri-guy.

I usually try and help in a lot of situations that I come across.... thankfully for stuff like this situation I have a lot of practical experience to apply good risk management. But that same experience tells me to tell the guy just be patient and wait for high tide.

Because you quoted me it is my assumption you are addressing me. I think you miss my point. I agree with Roger, I agree the tri should wait on the tide, Tow Boat or whomever, and no one should risk anything to attempt to pull him off in a situation where that is not warranted. It's hard to agree with you because you won't let us. Thank you for your service. I would love to be the mariner that you are but my life went one way, yours the other. I read and ponder every take you have. My point still remains, I do not want people not attempting to help or even engage because they simply don't want to get involved and the "litigious" excuse can be used. For me, other people are worth risking for, whether in the street, at a wreck on the highway or in the ocean. I also think you have left out a possibility of the "hero" story. It's not only men and women of service or whose jobs put them in harms way. Some people actually do, what you did with training and resources routinely, at the risk of their own peril, their families mourning or their financial loss, because it was in that split second, the right thing to do. It doesn't always end with a grandiose, non warranted hero's story, and it doesn't always end with screwing the pooch. I respect you and your service and accomplishments, but I think you frequently sell the rest of us short. We can't be you, you can't be us, but the simple man (woman), of which there are many who stick their necks out, just as you, deserves the same accolades. Sometimes the pooch's ass is saved!

 

[psneeld]

Because you quoted me it is my assumption you are addressing me. I think you miss my point. I agree with Roger, I agree the tri should wait on the tide, Tow Boat or whomever, and no one should risk anything to attempt to pull him off in a situation where that is not warranted. It's hard to agree with you because you won't let us. Thank you for your service. I would love to be the mariner that you are but my life went one way, yours the other. I read and ponder every take you have. My point still remains, I do not want people not attempting to help or even engage because they simply don't want to get involved and the "litigious" excuse can be used. For me, other people are worth risking for, whether in the street, at a wreck on the highway or in the ocean. I also think you have left out a possibility of the "hero" story. It's not only men and women of service or whose jobs put them in harms way. Some people actually do, what you did with training and resources routinely, at the risk of their own peril, their families mourning or their financial loss, because it was in that split second, the right thing to do. It doesn't always end with a grandiose, non warranted hero's story, and it doesn't always end with screwing the pooch. I respect you and your service and accomplishments, but I think you frequently sell the rest of us short. We can't be you, you can't be us, but the simple man (woman), of which there are many who stick their necks out, just as you, deserves the same accolades. Sometimes the pooch's ass is saved!

OK, I see that it's mostly agreement.

I think you misunderstand my hero reference....it wasn't about me or all first responders. It was about people who try to help when they shouldn't, the ones driven by "wanting to be that guy" when they don't have the experience or tools to do the job safely for all involved. Like the guy who rushes to a car accident and pulls the victim out, paralyzing them when it wasn't necessary. Sure people want/need to feel "being that guy", but if you "screw the pooch" and become "that guy you don't want to be"....not good.

This is an unfortunate turn in our society. But it's driven by the silliness of a system that punishes the kid who punches the bully before the bully punches him or his friend. The guy who accidently hurts the robber....and so on. Should this stop our actions? Fear of litigation or punishment?.... heck no.... all I really want people to do is not overstep their limitations which include their boat and crew for the situation.

The USCG motto used to be "you have to go out, but you don't have to come back"..... that has changed (when I was in service) to "you have to go out , but you HAVE to come back". Too many were dying when the people needing assistance were found alive and well shortly after the USCG was found all or mostly deceased. So even trained pros with the right equipment can make the simplest error in judgement and take not only them but an entire crew. So anyone making a split second decision are playing against house odds...not a winning combination and doesn't justify it being "the right thing to do". That's all I am saying. As posted many times on TF...boaters of new are not like the boaters of old. The longtime experience level is just not there with checkbook boating. So it's easy for these "new to boating" members to follow the same feeling of "responsibility to help" I am not trying to kill that. But as I and others have said....towing is one thing, ungrounding is another. Hopefully they can cut their teeth on towing before attempting ungroundings.

As far as selling people on TF short..... if you read my posts in perspective, you will see the few boating topics that I do dive into....from that very experience you mention, so I have strong feelings about them. Many/most boating topics I might casually make a comment, but much of the time I don't comment at all unless I totally disagree with a comment. I do respect a lot of boaters here and support their comments on topics I have little experience in.

Doesn't every professional say at some point "leave it to the pros"...Doctors, cops, engineers....and on and on. But all professionals know that competent DIYers are amazing...but it's the not so bright ones that suffer overstepping their abilities.

 

[DavidU]

Well said. Agreed.

 

[Hippocampus]

“Do you have seatow?
“Yes”
“Please call them. I’m draft restricted “


Have given assistance multiple times. Before doing so have always have called local authorities (USCG, charter company, tow company, LEOs etc.) to receive clearance to do so. Often asked to just be standby until they arrive.

On one occasion skipper was demanding. Told him conversation was being recorded (used cellphone to do it) and recorded him saying he assumed all liability and I was acting at his request and he gave permission for all interventions . This involved a charter bareboat captain who had run a power cat on reef and rocks with surf banging him in further. I didn’t tow him but rather using my dinghy took his anchor out so he could set it and prevent further damage from slamming further into the rocks/reef. I was on a sailboat with a 110hp engine. Dinghy had a 15hp engine. Cat was around 50’. So I waited until charter company came out with airbags and floated him off.

You can’t replace a life. You can replace or repair a boat. I was unwilling to risk my crew/boat. I was unwilling to assume he knew what he was doing. So did what I thought was safe, would help and would not expose me to liability. I think you have a moral responsibility to help and in fact an obligation. Definitely so mid ocean or when life is at risk but even so when coastal and only property is at risk. However the first step is to collect and process information. Decision as to how to help is on a case by case basis. Without first talking with authorities you do not have full information what help is available. The grounded vessel is an independent entity. He not you decides what if any help he needs and will accept. He not you should accept liability for his decisions. This needs to be made clear to him. Of course this is in the absence of risk of injury or loss of life.
Roger you did good. Nothing but ethical decisions. With20/20 hindsight I might have said “call your tow company. If you are on a handheld I’ll do it for you.” After making sure there’s no risk of injury or death by waiting. One wonders if there was an economic reason he didn’t call for a tow or if he really had tow insurance

 

[old-School]

If he brought me a line, I would have pulled him off.

Just suppose it was you who was grounded.

 

[Offshore]

Tow

Towing or pulling someone can get you in big trouble.
If something happens, he or his insurance company can sue for damages and disability.
Something always happens.

 

[psneeld]

If he brought me a line, I would have pulled him off.

Just suppose it was you who was grounded.

As others posted, I too would have been embarrassed to ask for a tow when not in danger, had a tide reversal in just a little while and wasn't trying to kedge myself off.

At least if my anchor was out in deeper water, someone could use the anchor rode to nudge me off if it was that easy.

 

[old-School]

Different people view things differently. I prefer to lean towards living life with a little risk and retaining a humanitarian view. Kindness is a virtue. I'll stay with old school.

 

[Hippocampus]

Believe liability is less if you use your dinghy pick up owner or crew of other vessel who then drops the kedge. They return to their boat and kedge themselves off. I provided that dinghy function for a cat that was aground to prevent further damage. I already had a dinghy in the water. He told me where he wanted the anchor dropped. Think you can usually figure out a way to help and limit your tort exposure. Running scared of lawyers and having that fear preventing helping is just wrong. Still as said in this case no help was needed.

Given they used their ground tackle and they set it and they decided if and when to kedge I would believe any damage is on their dime not mine.

 

[fvkw]

You have to be careful when somebody asks you to tow their boat. There's the liability Factor and damaging your boat Factor.
With boatus and Seatow so readily available there's really no excuse not to call Seatow or boat US.

JMO

 

[psneeld]

Seem like if the guy could have rowed a towline out, like Roger said he seemed a bit too inexperienced to help safely.

He could have kedged if he even knew how, and should at least had an anchor out so the incoming tide didn't make his grounding worse or more prolonged.

Lack of those two things signal a lot to me.

 

[SteveK]

Since we are supposing, maybe all he needed was to know he was not alone.

 

[Alisske]

OP- I would gather some thick skin on this one

That said, IMHO, there are too many variables, both known and unknown. Tide, current, wind etc…. Your comfort level etc….

I think you made the right decision based on the fact you were not comfortable with the situation.

Me? If I was single handing with one injured person below, I would have done as you did and accept the fact the guy was miserable in a bad situation and lashed out at you. (Judge someone after you are
In their shoes)

Be well

 

[ancora]

OP- I would gather some thick skin on this one

That said, IMHO, there are too many variables, both known and unknown. Tide, current, wind etc…. Your comfort level etc….

I think you made the right decision based on the fact you were not comfortable with the situation.

Me? If I was single handing with one injured person below, I would have done as you did and accept the fact the guy was miserable in a bad situation and lashed out at you. (Judge someone after you are
In their shoes)

Be well

In today's world, you could be abetting a crime.

 

[Capt Dan]

What would you think if you were in his shoes?

I don't get it, you are running an ambulance but stop around the corner for the night? Not much of an emergency as an excuse.

I'd put my bow toward him an let him bring a line to you. If you can pull him out in reverse Great, that trimarran weighs nothing at all.

We've towed plenty of boats over the years, 4 just this year on the loop. People are very grateful!

Paying forward is what we call it.

 

[PierreR]

I'd put my bow toward him an let him bring a line to you. If you can pull him out in reverse Great, that trimarran weighs nothing at all.

We've towed plenty of boats over the years, 4 just this year on the loop. People are very grateful!

Paying forward is what we call it.

Given the circumstances, I cannot figure out how I would do this. Maybe you have something to accomplish this that I don't have. To pull him out backwards from the way he went onto the shoal using the bow would put you directly upstream from the day mark and at an angle to the current. I don't know about you but I cannot hold station with the stern upstream at an angle to the current. That includes walking the stern against the current and my boat just doesn't do that. The second problem is him getting the line on the bow. My bow is 9' off the water.

I could likely hold station with the bow upstream at an angle to the current but the minute you tie a line on the stern and its tight, all bets are off for keeping the boat away from the day marker.

No way I could leave the bridge to help. I would feel bad about not pulling this guy free but saddled with the wrong equipment, no crew and greater responsibility, I would have to pass. Even with another crew member, I think it would be touch and go. The deal breaker is the day marker for me with this boat. There are plenty of situations I would offer a tow but this is not one of them.

Piece of cake with a center console and outboard motors to get right up close and pull him out with a short tow line.

 

[Roger Long]

Just suppose it was you who was grounded.

Been there, done that. Didn't even call TowBoatUS. Just kept an eye on the low exhaust to be sure water didn't enter it and secured some furniture against the heel. Three hours later, we floated off and continued to our anchorage.

Some situations require asking for and giving help. This wasn't one of them. Even if help had been needed, I was single handed in strong current with an obstruction and shallow water very close down current.

Encouraging him to try and bring a line out to me with a paddle board in a knot and a half current just so he could get to his anchorage 4 hours earlier would have been quite negligent in my view. If he had gone in the water, there would have been a real life threatening emergency.


Again, I note that those who have agreed with my decision (like PierreR) appear to have considered and analyzed the situation and those who think I am a selfish ahole mostly have replied with 1 or two line platitudes.

 

[psneeld]

I have to agree about the daymarker....used to be one of the trickier parts to ungrounding if one was nearby.

Nighttime always a challenge, fortunately this case there was still light. Unlit and hard to see sideways day markers scared me pretty good when ungrounding.... one moment they seemed far away and the next you would be swinging fast towards one. That happened during the day to when the current was strong and distractions caused you to focus on the tow or boat traffic. Then heaven forbid the tow winds up on the other side and now you can't do much till they release or in my case cut the bosses very expensive towline.

Of course the real comedy shi*show happens when passerbys or spectators show up and the towline is stretched into/across the channel, especially as the grounded boat starts coming off. Yep, some people just don't understand polite requests to stay back or wait a minute. They often pay no attention to the red/yellow flashing lights either.

Not sure how many have been in those ungrounding situations, but after many of them, I have to say that unless you thought about all these things and still decided to help.......

 

[mvweebles]

......
Again, I note that those who have agreed with my decision (like PierreR) appear to have considered and analyzed the situation and those who think I am a selfish ahole mostly have replied with 1 or two line platitudes.

If I'm part of the chastised peanut gallery, I certainly don't think you're a jerk. I understand and respect your decision.

In the future, instead of titling your TF post "what would you do?" maybe write something along the lines of "here's what I did and you should too."

 

[Hippocampus]

I’m with Roger on this one. Like the title. Think Socratic method works and sometimes you’re off base so feedback is informative. Either way validation or offered alternatives a respectful polite title.