Tranny fluid as fuel additive

[Restitution]

Just had injectors rebuilt for both Perkins engines. Had lots of smoke and fuel in crankcase last year. What a world of difference for $600 and moderately easy to do as well. The rebuild shop said that the new diesel is all "low sulphur" and as such, has no lubricating properties. This will put excessive wear on new injectors. He suggested adding ATF or two stroke oil at each fill up. He said the engines will thank me for it. I've heard this from others too. How many of you do this AND what quantity oil? (1 qt per 100 gal)?

Sam

 

[rwidman]

I would only put things in the fuel that are supposed to be in the fuel. Automatic transmission fluid is supposed to be put in automatic transmissions, not in your fuel system.

If you believe you need to add something to your fuel for what ever reason, I would suggest one of the commercial fuel additives intended for diesel engines in marine service.

Your favorite marine retailer will have several to choose from or you can buy from an Internet vendor.

 

[Tom.B]

Your mechanic might be mistaken. We just talked about fuel additives just last month-ish. Here is the whole thread:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/fuel-additive-8534.html

But here is the most relevant post by a fuel professional TF member Craig Shreck:

The issue of adding a fuel lubricity product to your fuel tank is some what dependent on where you live, I can only talk about Atlantic east coast cause that's the bulk of the fuels we sample and test, The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR, The good old high sulfur pre 2005 fuels were Diesel #2 350/390 HFRR Those days are gone, The low sulfur we have seen after 2005 has been 390/500 HFRR and now for Ultra low sulfur 600/800 HFRR , Note... the higher the # the lower the lubricity, The good news is we have not seen any Ultra low diesel for marine fuels yet on the east coast & most of the fuels tested have been under 460 HFRR. There are some engines that will require some form additive in the future when the marine industry must comply, It seems to me that most people are just selling extra protection that may not be needed, Its a easy sell We recommend for long term storage tanks should be empty and cleaned before use, Good topic fellas

 

[Insequent]

I agree with Ron - add only stuff that is meant to be added. Here is some info.
Fuel Additive Test - Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel - Diesel Power Magazine

Also bear in mind that the oil companies put their own additives in before the fuel gets to the pump, to compensate for the unintended consequences of sulfur removal. Not sure that end-user additions are going to be needed for most people.

 

[JAT]

ATF is made with "mineral oil"....and it has other chemicals in it..... I would not add it to my fuel.

 

[Brooksie]

Many fleets & farmers have been adding filtered waste engine oil to their fuel for decades with no ill effects. I would not be so sure this is a bad idea.

 

[Nomad Willy]

ATF has lots of additives for automatic transmissions. I hear they are heavily laden w anti foaming additives. That will do you no good and they were never intended to burn. They may burn like plastic or rubber. So I agree w Ron on this one too .. no ATF. And I'd say also that the mechanic was dead wrong and is a good example of why we should question what mechanics say.

The 2 stroke lube oil is meant to be burned and is usually ash less and very clean burning. It also is an excellent lubricant and whatever additives it has burn clean in a gas engine but a diesel engine may be different. I doubt it though. I'd give it a 99% thumbs up .. but not 100.

Brooksie,
I'm sure that's a bad idea for the same reason 4 stroke engine lube oil is very bad to run in a 2 stroke gas engine. Four stroke lube oil should not be in a combustion chamber. I'd do like Ron suggests as I don't think we really have a lubricity problem yet. And re what Brian says they probably won't sell a fuel that will ruin thousands of engines. Not in their best interest.

 

[Brooksie]

ATF has lots of additives for automatic transmissions. I hear they are heavily laden w anti foaming additives. That will do you no good and they were never intended to burn. They may burn like plastic or rubber. So I agree w Ron on this one too .. no ATF. And I'd say also that the mechanic was dead wrong and is a good example of why we should question what mechanics say.

The 2 stroke lube oil is meant to be burned and is usually ash less and very clean burning. It also is an excellent lubricant and whatever additives it has burn clean in a gas engine but a diesel engine may be different. I doubt it though. I'd give it a 99% thumbs up .. but not 100.

Brooksie,
I'm sure that's a bad idea for the same reason 4 stroke engine lube oil is very bad to run in a 2 stroke gas engine. Four stroke lube oil should not be in a combustion chamber. I'd do like Ron suggests as I don't think we really have a lubricity problem yet. And re what Brian says they probably won't sell a fuel that will ruin thousands of engines. Not in their best interest.

I'll take that as a no on the atf.

Back in the day, there was no such thing as 2 stroke oil and everyone used engine oil in their old 2 strokes. I'm sure 2 stroke oil is better in many ways, but there were no great problems using engine oil. The outboards were all 30:1 mixture so they saw even more oil than today.

 

[rwidman]

.............. Back in the day, ............... .

Engines today are far different than what they were "back in the day". Unless you are running a forty year old engine, I would forger the "back in the day" stuff.

 

[Brooksie]

Engines today are far different than what they were "back in the day". Unless you are running a forty year old engine, I would forger the "back in the day" stuff.

"who won't learn from history must repeat it"

 

[expat]

when I worked for Ford as a diesel tech we had th oppertunity to talk to a Navstar engine designer and his comment on ATF in the fuel was an absolute NO, if you really want to use something use an additive reccommendedby the manufacture or as a last resort 2 cycle oil at least thats intended to be in a combustion chamber

 

[C lectric]

Look also at this thread. There are some old standard recommendations that if used will actually harm the engine.
Be carefull.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

 

[FF]

Many fleets & farmers have been adding filtered waste engine oil to their fuel for decades with no ill effects.

Go to the DD site and see the damage fro using old lube oil.

The practice of using ATF comes from maint shops that change fuel filters.

Getting diesel to fill a filter housing is a pain in the butt, opening a couple of cans of ATF , a snap as its in the parts room.

ATF might help, but I prefer a gallon of cheap 2 stroke oil to each 100G refueling

I see it as insurance, it may help, but does no harm , so why not

 

[Nomad Willy]

Assuming you do this on a regular basis how long have you done it? Like you say it dosn't seem like it could do any harm and would probably to no doubt be good upper cylinder lube.

 

[RickB]

... here is the most relevant post by a fuel professional TF member Craig Shreck:

"The issue of adding a fuel lubricity product to your fuel tank is some what dependent on where you live, I can only talk about Atlantic east coast cause that's the bulk of the fuels we sample and test, The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, ..."

Beware of "experts" who don't know the difference between a piece of test equipment and a standard.


Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Fuel Additive

 

[RickB]

Assuming you do this on a regular basis how long have you done it? Like you say it dosn't seem like it could do any harm and would probably to no doubt be good upper cylinder lube.

Could you explain the process by which a diesel fuel additive will lubricate the "upper cylinder"?

 

[sunchaser]

He suggested adding ATF or two stroke oil at each fill up. He said the engines will thank me for it. I've heard this from others too. Sam

In our recreational boats that seldom see more than 100 to 300 hours per year one can get by with a few of the dock talk fuel and oil elixirs. Nobody can ever be proved wrong or right.

The real work horses of the diesel world are 24/7 gensets, 7 day 3 shift mining equipment or tow barges where 70%+ load for 4,000 to 7,000 hours per year are routine. They don't use the guy next door's suggestions. Many of the heavy duty applications have a perpetuity contract for the engine components, blocks and repair costs with fuel and lubricant specs very tightly specified.

It is easy enough to google Cat, Cummins or MTU data and read through their mandates for fluids and fuel. It will read little different than your engine book for fuel and oil specs, just more pages of details. If anyone could find a new or old engine manufacturers book that says use ATF, 2 stroke, Marvel etc in your fuel or oil I'd be very surprised. If you have a new TierII, III or IV engine tread very lightly on fuel and oil elixirs, even if only for a 300 hour per year engine.

As noted earlier, additives for diesel fuel lubricity are placed there by the refiner. Bugs, water, winter layup elixirs - well that is a different old and new wives tale.

 

[Capn Chuck]

I would add that Bob Smith at American Diesel has been suggesting Marvel Mystery Oil for the Ford Lehman only, for many years if you have an FL and want to add something. He suggests using nothing else. Chuck.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I was talking to Mr. Smith a fair number of years back (most probably before the advent of low sulfur fuel) and brought up the MM question. As I vaguely recall his response it was something to the effect of: You don't really have to add anything but MM shouldn't hurt the Lehman. I HAVE added MM in the past but I don't think I will continue this practice.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rick,
At first I thought of grabbing some tomato's to throw and then the light went on. But it would lube fuel pumps and injector pumps and it's with injector pumps that diesels need lubricity isn't it?

 

[RickB]

Rick,
At first I thought of grabbing some tomato's to throw and then the light went on. But it would lube fuel pumps and injector pumps and it's with injector pumps that diesels need lubricity isn't it?

What evidence exists to show that commerically available diesel fuel straight from the pump or truck without additives lacks the lubricity required to obtain full life of pumps and injectors?

What is the impact of used lube oil and ATF on injector tips and on combustion?

What is the calcium and phosphorus and zinc content of ATF and used lube oil and what impact do those elements have on pumps and injectors?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rick I covered your paragraph 1 in my post 7 but generally I think you're just trying to give me a bad time make me look ignorant so I'll not respond further.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Great question Sam. The older motors such as yours are not run by electronic brains or have any emmisions on them. Back in my trucker days, I would add 1 gallon of ATF to each fuel tank. It helpsed some keep the injectors from sticking and did reduce my maintanence $$.

With my pick up trucks (and you know how hard I work them) I use one of the following (keep in mind my last PU had 320,000 mile on the 6.0 ford before I traded it in):

 

[caltexflanc]

I'd really pay attention to what the engine manufacturers say on the subject. Some of you have engines that no longer have factory support, and/or may not have the service manual, so are more subject to the whims and prejudices of mechanics.

My old Detroits are still supported and my service manual is the update of March 2003, so low sulphur was in the system and ULSD was in sight. So in the case of the Detroit 2 strokes, arguably a Cro-Magnon device, they do not recommend additives (other than Bio Bor if the fuel is going to sit for a long time), specifically prohibit the addition of used oil and only discuss the issues raised by HIGH sulfur content, there is no minimum sulfur content in their detailed fuel specifications. They list sulfur and lubricity maximums, no minimums. So don't make blanket assumptions or pay too much heed to wive's tales and superstition. USLD is supposed to be completely phased out by December of 2014, last I heard.

 

[Marin]

Marvel Mystery Oil has been shown in recent fuel additive studies to actually decrease fuel lubricity. As such, it should never be used in an engine if increased lubricity is a hoped-for objective.

ATF is a shade-tree mechanic's cure for sticking valve lifters. ATF apparently has a higher detergent content than most motor oils so adding a quart to an engine's normal capacity is supposed to help clean off gunk or buildup that could be causing a sticking lifter. I learned this "trick" some time ago when our Range Rover developed a sticking lifter. The ATF--- or some other factor I didn't know about--- worked as advertised and I have used it periodically to keep the problem from recurring. So far and some 150,000 miles later, so good.

But adding ATF to lube oil is one thing (maybe). Adding it to fuel is something else entirely and I would not do this without checking with a whole lot of experienced engine experts and the engine's operating manual and maybe even the engine's manufacturer if they are still supporting that engine, first.

 

[RickB]

Rick I covered your paragraph 1 in my post 7 but generally I think you're just trying to give me a bad time make me look ignorant so I'll not respond further.

The questions are rhetorical and placed there to get people to start thinking about what is in the stuff that dockside mythology promotes mixing with their fuel to cure problems that, for the most part, simply don't exist.

 

[bobofthenorth]

The fact that somebody has thrown something in the tank for xx years and his engine hasn't blown up says more about general engine reliablity than it does about the properties of whatever mysterious elixir is being promoted. Balance those isolated stories against hundreds of thousands of engines running for millions of hours without any added snake oil and form your own conclusions. I lost a lot of respect for Bob Smith when I heard him promoting MMO.

 

[Restitution]

It was explained to me this way, and it makes some sense: We all have used diesel to clean various engine parts, right. Why? Because it excellent at removing grease and oil. From what I understand, high sulfur diesel had lubricating properties where the LS diesel does NOT (or not much anyway). Without the HS diesel, the rods within each injector and the distribution pump components will wear much faster. Also, if an injector is NOT atomizing well, the LS diesel can wash the cylinder wall clean of the film of oil and cylinder wall will become scored.

Being I have new injectors, I believe I will get some diesel addative, but likely not ATF in the future. (even though their is a chance it is the same thing). It cannot in anyway hurt. I may see how the 2 stroke works as well. I will let you all know. Thanks for the input.

sam

 

[Restitution]

For my next comment.......................... I'm thinking about pouring old and well-used deep fat fryer oil from my neighbors fried chicken restaurants into the tanks as fuel.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

For my next comment.......................... I'm thinking about pouring old and well-used deep fat fryer oil from my neighbors fried chicken restaurants into the tanks as fuel.

Seen it run in trucks from Alaska to North Carolina. Although I would be carful in NC as the state smells trucks going to the race track and then see if they are paying road tax....