Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

[PhatDad]

The Wife and I are on the hunt for our first LRC boat. These boats appear to have a lot of sail area. With the wind blowing, dock a 40' plus boat with a single would seem to be a bit of a challenge. We are looking at a*LRC boat, single*200hp perk with a BOW THRUSTER

http://www.boats.com/boat-details/Pt-Sundeck/125297431

Thanks for your time*Guys.*

*

 

[timjet]

Many opinions have been expressed on the single vs twin question. Do a search and you will get a good idea of what the plus and minus' of each are.
The boat you posted looks exceptionally clean. Good luck.

 

[PhatDad]

Thanks Tim. I always forget about the search option.

 

[psneeld]

A single 40 with an adequate thruster will dock like a dream...many experienced boaters*can put a single in tight places except for the most extreme of cases...and even then with a good crew and spring lines you can amaze the crowds.

Twins are nice in areas where a significant get home engine is a great idea...but not necessary...and twins will get you into dock areas that a single would cause you to sweat a bit more...but again...plan ahead and with a working, good thruster and there's not too many places you can't put a single 40 footer.

 

[Vyndance]

There is no minus to a twin maneuverability. A drunk one eyed monkey can put a twin any place he wants. A single takes some skill. I own both and have docked both in 40 mph gusting 60 mph Santa Annas.

 

[Marin]

Bottom line is that anything that can be accomplished with a twin can be accomplished with a single. No bow thruster needed, although it can be a very handy aid for part-time, recreational boaters. The techniques will be different between a single and a multi-engine boat but the end result will be the same.

Anyone who doubts this needs to watch the Fraser river tugs at work south of Vancouver, BC where they are battling not only a current but all sorts of winds. And their helmsmen can put them anywhere they want them. One engine, one prop, one big rudder (or a Kort nozzle), no thruster.* Of course, these guys aren't too worried about the paintwork.. * Or, if you're on the east coast, go up and watch the lobstermen on Prince Edward Island come into port on a blustery day. All single-engine boats, no thrusters, they put them wherever they want to put them. I would imagine the same situation exists in Maine, too.

I like multi-engine boats and we won't own a single but that has nothing to do with any belief on my part that a single is less reliable or less maneuverable. We chartered a single-engine GB36 before we bought our own boat and had no challenges with it at all except once, and that was due almost entirely to our lack of experience, not the number of engines in the boat.

As Tim rightly pointed out there have been countless "discussions" about single vs multi-engine boats on this forum and it's all sitting there in the archives. While it's often a lot faster to ask your questions live rather than wade through the search process, you're likely to get more detailed information in the archives simply because the topic has been discussed so much by most of us it's become repetitive.

But if you want to ask a question live, don't hesitate to do so. The weather's getting crappy and I'm sure a lot of people on the forum will jump at the excuse to justify their own preference yet again

 

[Woodsong]

Well, to specifically answer your question, yes, it is easier to maneuver a twin screw boat in tight quarters/high winds/etc. than a single screw. I've had both- they both have their advantages but really-the #1 advantage of a twin screw boat in my opinion is handling in tight quarters.

 

[Marin]

Woodsong wrote:
Well, to specifically answer your question, yes, it is easier to maneuver a twin screw boat in tight quarters/high winds/etc. than a single screw.

I don't really agree with that.* It's easier for an inexperienced or every-now-and-then boater to maneuver a twin, perhaps, but an experienced single-engine boater can do anything a twin driver can and just as easily.

In fact it's been my observation around here that when the wind is really blowing, it's the single-engine folks who are the majority of people going out, particularly if you include sailboaters.* The twin owners more often than not seem to be the ones staying in the slip and waiting for a better day.

Most of the boats we and our boating friends have observed getting into major maneuvering problems at places like Friday Harbor, Roche Harbor, and Ganges, to name some of the more popular and crowded harbors/marinas in this area, have been twins, not singles.

Our best boating buddies have a single engine lobsterboat with a bow thruster.* But in the 13 years we've known them I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've witnessed Carey using the thruster.* But.... he is an excellent boat handler, one of the two best boat handlers I know (no, I am not the second one), and he can pretty much put his 36' boat anywhere he wants without the aid of the thruster, although he is not above using it if he really needs to.

So in my opinion how easy it is is totally dependent on the skill and experience of the helmsman, not how many engines are in the boat.* We' ve met single-engine boat owners who don't want any part of a twin, claiming that they are much more comfortable maneuvering their single engine boat than "messing around with all those engines" in a twin.* It's all in what you're used to and what you become good at.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 19th of November 2011 10:13:26 PM

 

[koliver]

I am always surprised, appalled, shocked, at the general ignorance of the handling characteristics of their own boat, shown by the majority of operators of pleasure boats. So many never bother to understand how their boat actually works. So it is no wonder that we have these discussions relating to the benefits of one type of configuration over another, when anyone who takes the time to figure out the properties of the configuration they have, can work with that configuration successfully, so that it is second nature, and will work for them, even in adverse conditions.
Sure, twins are easier than single. Not so much that you should choose twins over a single. If the boat you like has them, great, if not, learn how to deal with the single, and also great.

 

[Woodsong]

Marin,
I agree 100% that really it is about skill and ability and confidence and experience (practice). However, twins require less skill than a single, therefore, twins are easier. I handle both all the time and as Keith just mentioned- it amazes me how many don't know how to run their boat (not that I am the Chuck Norris of boating!). Switching to my single screw Monk this past year and a half or so has been an adjustment- initially a little nervous but really- can put that boat just about anywhere i need and never had an issue yet with river currents, going through the locks, etc. But- twins are easier to dock, even for the highly experienced. As a broker, it amazes me how many sellers ask me to take the wheel and pilot their vessel during sea trials...some even not wanting to attend so as to not have to dock their own boat.

One thing I know though- I would pretty much rather have a single screw diesel to a twin screw larger gas boat!

 

[Marin]

Woodsong wrote:
However, twins require less skill than a single, therefore, twins are easier.

*Hmmm--- (it's raining out so I have time to argue this )--- I don't think I agree with that either.* The really good single drivers I know would probably be inclined to say that twins require more skill because there are more things to manipulate and understand.* And I don't know that I disagree with that.

You can maneuver a mulit-engine boat as though it has multiple engines, and you can maneuver it as though it was a single engine boat.* So which technique is best for a given situation?* Sometimes it's best to use opposed thrust.* Sometimes it's better to use only one engine and leave the other one alone.* Somtimes it's better to use both engines together in the same direction.* Sometimes it's better to rotate the boat around it's center of yaw with opposed thrust, and sometimes it's better to use back-and-fill.* Sometimes it's best to combine opposed thrust AND back and fill.* We use all these techniques to maneuver our twin engine boat--- which ones we use depends on the specific situation.

The guy with the single has all these choices made for him. His only choice is to use the techniques that work for a single engine boat.* So assuming he's mastered these, his task is a lot easier because he has fewer options to choose from which means he has fewer techniques to get good at.

And I'm always amazed, like Keith, how many twin drivers don't understand how to use their two engines and transmissions to their benefit.* We very rarely encounter a single driver who doesn't understand what works and how and when to use it.

 

[Woodsong]

Marin,

Be careful disagreeing with me- I am a moderator- I can (dance around with blue hair and fuzzy slippers while singing show tunes) edit your posts to make you AGREE with me! * haha- totally kidding!

(Sorry Tony... I couldn't resist! -Tom)


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Sunday 20th of November 2011 07:24:09 AM

 

[Marin]

Woodsong wrote:
Marin,

Be careful disagreeing with me- I am a moderator- I can edit your posts to make you AGREE with me! * haha- totally kidding!

*Okay, okay! I'll agree with you.*

Actually, I don't disagree that what most people view as the basic maneuvering technique for a twin--- opposed thrust which produces* a lot of propwalk in whichever direction you're trying to move the stern--- is a pretty easy concept to grasp and master.* Probably more so (for the average boater ) than the concept of using alternating thrust, rudder, and inertia to back and fill a single engine boat to accomplish the same thing.

 

[FF]

How do you get to Carnege Hall?

PRACTICE

While the debate over single or twin will continue forever ,

0nly with hours of dedicated practice will the boats ability be useable.

 

[jleonard]

FF wrote:
How do you get to Carnege Hall?

PRACTICE

While the debate over single or twin will continue forever ,

0nly with hours of dedicated practice will the boats ability be useable.

*I can say that at MY marina there are more twin engine folks that have trouble than the single engine, and that's because the the Carnegie Hall theory. I believe that most twin engine owners*FEEL (perceive) that the twin enignes will make up for lack of skills....and it shows. The single engine guys know they NEED skills so they practise more and that shows.

Just a theory.

*

 

[psneeld]

Remember...often there's a HUGE difference between a twin gasser and most diesel twins.* The torque and prop walk on a diesel boat usually is significant when handling...some gassers are a handiul and require lots of throttle which is disconcerting to the inexperienced.

On some of the bigger expresses (35-48 footers) that were using the 8.1 MPI gassers*also had such tiny rudders that single engine manuevering was all but impossible in tight quarters,

 

[Woodsong]

Woodsong wrote:
Marin,

Be careful disagreeing with me- I am a moderator- I can (dance around with blue hair and fuzzy slippers while singing show tunes) edit your posts to make you AGREE with me! * haha- totally kidding!

(Sorry Tony... I couldn't resist! -Tom)



-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Sunday 20th of November 2011 07:24:09 AM

*

*

HAHA! *THis means WAR Tom!!!! * *lol

 

[Codger2]

Marin wrote:
The guy with the single has all these choices made for him. His only choice is to use the techniques that work for a single engine boat.* So assuming he's mastered these, his task is a lot easier because he has fewer options to choose from which means he has fewer techniques to get good at.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the point. Twins are great and don't require the pilot expertise a single does, however, when it comes to safety a twin wins hands down. I've had both and I did not have to practice with the twin as much as I did with my single. The price you pay for that added safety, however, is considerable. Added maintenance, fuel, cost of vessel, etc.


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Sunday 20th of November 2011 10:10:30 AM

 

[koliver]

The guys I get the most fun out of usually have twins, and thrusters. I think they buy all that stuff just to show off their wallets, then they rely on it to avoid the necessity of getting to know how to drive their boat. Those of us who grew up boating had to made do with what was in the boat we were driving at the time. Learn to move the boat where you need it to go, or stay home. Staying home was never the right choice.
Like FF said, practice will take you to Carnegie hall, and it doesn't matter what is in your boat. Even the ones with tiny rudders.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure what you mean...but you are not going to manuever some of those with tiny rudders in most conditions except to a big, open "side to" dock.

Bringing them back into a narrow fairway to their own dock would be foolish as their extraordinary poor handling on one engine would result in constant fending off other pilings and boats.* This could result in damage or injury and would show poor seamanship.

Having driven those type boats for a Sea Ray dealership I had the displeasure of bringing or not bringing dozens in for owners on one engine( as well as many Rinkers, Cruisers, Wellcrafts, etc...etc).* Some were barely manueverable...some were not at all....so even practice does not overcome physics.



-- Edited by psneeld on Sunday 20th of November 2011 10:05:32 AM


-- Edited by psneeld on Sunday 20th of November 2011 10:06:35 AM

 

[Codger2]

koliver wrote:*I think they buy all that stuff just to show off their wallets,

*I hate those bastards!

 

[markpierce]

psneeld wrote:
On some of the bigger expresses (35-48 footers) that were using the 8.1 MPI gassers*also had such tiny rudders that single engine manuevering was all but impossible in tight quarters,

*Big rudders are good.

 

[psneeld]

Unfortunately not on high speed boats...which to me now are any boat that can approach 10 knots!

 

[windmist]

Big rudders are good.

_________________________________

Articulating BIG rudders are even better.

Ron

 

[Egregious]

I've been cruising for about six weeks now so I'm getting used to how my boat handles.* Our boat has a large flying bridge enclosure that acts like a sail.* Depending on the wind direction I drive and dock differently.* Backing in can be a very aggressive maneuver in the wrong wind.* I have twin screws and the only thing you can do is pivot off of a piling if you have big wind.* Then just scrape around.* I imagine a single screw would do it the same, but most of the boats I see have bow thrusters.* I am still learning but I haven't crashed yet.

 

[PhatDad]

Egregious wrote:
I've been cruising for about six weeks now so I'm getting used to how my boat handles.* Our boat has a large flying bridge enclosure that acts like a sail.* Depending on the wind direction I drive and dock differently.* Backing in can be a very aggressive maneuver in the wrong wind.* I have twin screws and the only thing you can do is pivot off of a piling if you have big wind.* Then just scrape around.* I imagine a single screw would do it the same, but most of the boats I see have bow thrusters.* I am still learning but I haven't crashed yet.

*Thanks for the info Guys. Egregious, great looking boat. And yes, you have a lot of sail area.

 

[skipperdude]

I watched a guy with twins. A 36 bayliner. Backing into his slip. The wind blew him into the corner of the finger. Took out his trim tab on the starboard side.

He had water coming in. I grabbed a screw gun and filled the holes with a few screws. (Temporary Fix)

The wind can be a real Bitch.

SD*

 

[Per]

We have a 38' Californian, and yes she is fairly flat bottomed and have a large "sail" pilothouse / flybridge.

She has twin diesels and no thrusters.. in windy conditions in can be a real bitch to get in between two fingers, especially if there is also a tidal current (isnt there always?).
But you can do a lot with twins, fairly easily which would take much more skill to do with a single.
That being said, sometimes less is more... so if you only have to learn how the boat reacts to a single, you can keep it faily simple (forward/reverse and each port/sb direction VS 4 times as many configurations with a twin).

but if you really really know how to steer your twins, i believe you can do almost anything in mostly any conditions, even some maneuvers not possible in a single.

A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow, you never want much momentum. pretend you want to go in slow motion. the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

and remember the boat is headed one direction but often pointed in a different direction (unless you are in a sailboat).

take some lessons from a seasoned twin skipper and practice practice practice.

 

[Tony B]

Eventually, you will learn how to work with the wind. Until then, a single with a bow thruster should be almost as good as twins and you should not have a problem.
The bow thruster will be your "equalizer" in that what you lack in experience, the thruster will make up in maneuverability. If you have twins and you still need a bow thruster, well then ....never mind..... make like I didn't bring that up. LOL

BTW, keep in mind that whenever you fight the wind or current, you will always lose. You have to learn to work with it and use it to your advantage.

 

[Bendit]

We had Riviera SFs (2) with twins and no thruster. Backing in with the wind on the bow was always a challenge as I never knew which way the bow was going to blow off. We once hit the yacht next door and folded a couple of stanchions. After that, in a real blow we*drove in bow first and turned the boat around on another day*- when there was less wind.

We have a friend with an similar SF (twins) with bow-thruster, and it's not that much of an improvement because he's going like a one-armed paperhanger (with fleas) with so many controls to deal with, and once the wind gets hold of the bow, it still goes sideways anyway.

We now have a single prop with 10hp hydraulic bow-thruster and an aft steering station.*This boat is by far the easiest to manage of*any we've had despite being the largest (53ft). I happily take it to the fuel wharf or even out fishing on my own and never have any problem getting back into the slip. The aft station is the key, because I can reverse in and reach the stern lines with a boat-hook from this station.