Twin engines easier around the dock in a blow?

[bobc]

Per wrote:

... A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow, you never want much momentum. pretend you want to go in slow motion. the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

Is there agreement on this point?* My bias was to go slow, but that seems to get me in trouble because there's not enough rudder effect, and there's more time for the wind cause problems.* I dock a bit faster these days and usually don't need to touch the thruster.

 

[BruceK]

My first powerboat,semi displacement, had a single Perkins. Understand prop walk and some other things and you do a lot with it. I got a half day tuition with an experienced skipper on board and Bob Sweet`s book "Powerboat Handling",both a great help.

Our Island Gypsy 36 with twin FLs,no thrusters, is much easier to handle but I still use techniques learnt out of necessity on the single. Even so,go for twin diesels if you can, but windage will always be an issue in tight areas.

We know people with a Banks 52 which has a computer coordinating engines and thrusters. Move the joystick, it does the rest!

Our local Maritime Authority encourages being able to operate without thrusters,just in case. Around the bays you see some boats rely excessively on thrusters, instead of using engine and rudder techniques.

BruceK IG36 "Doriana"

Sydney Australia

 

[Marin]

bobc wrote:Per wrote:

... A new friend of ours is a Captain of a 70' pleasure yacht, he gave me following advise:
go slow,

Is there agreement on this point?*

*No.* It will depend on the boat.* But I see WAY more boaters, single or twin, get into trouble because they are going too slow than boaters who get into trouble by going too fast (within reason).* Too slow and you lose steerage and when that happens you're at the mercy of the wind or current.

We used to run the boat very slowly in maneuvers.* After getting blown around a bunch and then*getting acquainted with some very experienced boat handlers who gave us the benefit of their advice*we don't do that anymore.* We keep some speed on even into the slip.* The boat responds better to rudder, and we have no problem stopping or shoving the stern one way or the other with the props.

An extreme example of the problems of too slow was told to me by a WWII PT skipper.* The boats, particulary the Elcos, had tiny little rudders that were all but useless at slow speeds.* So the skippers learned to drive them fast, even right up to the dock or to*their raft of boats.* By fast I mean moving along at 10 or 15 mph or even faster.* At that speed the rudders were at least somewhat responsive.* (All the props on a PT turned the same way so opposing thrust wasn't as productive as one might have hoped).* But roaring into the base and up to the dock or raft was the norm.* The boats were stopped by a huge blast of reverse on all three.* The only time anyone had problems is if the transmissions refused to shift


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 21st of November 2011 06:23:51 PM

 

[Phil Fill]

The best is to find an easier place to dock and/or wait for the wind to die down.* Many bigger boats tend to know/follow the weather, how/when the winds blow and use to their advantage.* In the Puget Sound, during the summer warmer months the thermal wind blows from the North West, in land off the sound between 10:00 AM and 7:00PM.* In the winter it blows from the south west all day, but windows between storms.* So wait for the window and/or use the wind to your advantage. *
*
The approach direction of the direction the boat is facing many times can make a difference.* Many times I will turn the boat around to make it easier to leave the dock when the wind is calm so maneuvering is kept to a minimum.* Also many time going bow first when conditions are not favorable and then turning the boat around stern first when the conditions improve.
*
Lastly have the lines/fenders set before entering the marina, and call ahead to have assistance at the dock.* Make sure you crew/helpers know/understand what you indented plans are and what they are support to due.* Its the crew many times that make the captain look good, even when you mess it up.* *Most marinas will give assistance if you request.**I*usually ask for dock assitance as its better to have then not to have.*
*

 

[Per]

I feel going idle in gear forward is typically too fast.
What i do is initially come in to my fairway both in idle gear forward, from there i start slowing down, by alternating (as needed) one engine in gear forward almost just used now for steering since boat still has lots of momentum, if i need higher rate of turn, i will kick opposing into reverse and typically i come into the slip so quietly i dont need any reverse to stop it.
I do know that I need to better learn how to work with the wind and current, part of that is also predicting how the wind/current will affect the docking.
I dont have a big problem going out by myself, though if the wind is really bad I will typically wait it out or not go out that day.

I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:
An extreme example of the problems of too slow was told to me by a WWII PT skipper.* The boats, particulary the Elcos, had tiny little rudders that were all but useless at slow speeds.* So the skippers learned to drive them fast, even right up to the dock or to*their raft of boats.* By fast I mean moving along at 10 or 15 mph or even faster.* At that speed the rudders were at least somewhat responsive.* (All the props on a PT turned the same way so opposing thrust wasn't as productive as one might have hoped).* But roaring into the base and up to the dock or raft was the norm.* The boats were stopped by a huge blast of reverse on all three.* The only time anyone had problems is if the transmissions refused to shift

*Perhaps that explains one scene on the movie "PT-109" (Kennedy's boat).

 

[Marin]

Per wrote:I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?

*Stern-first in the slip can offer advantages to some boats.* Sometimes owners like to do it to put their cabin door on the same side as their finger float.* Sometimes* a boat is easier to board from the stern or swimstep and it would not be as convenient if the stern was clear out at the end of their finger or even slightly past it.* Sometimes it's advantageous to face the boat a certain way into the prevailing weather and depending on the slip location, backing into the slip may be the only way to face the boat in that direction.

 

[psneeld]

Per wrote:

I feel going idle in gear forward is typically too fast.
What i do is initially come in to my fairway both in idle gear forward, from there i start slowing down, by alternating (as needed) one engine in gear forward almost just used now for steering since boat still has lots of momentum, if i need higher rate of turn, i will kick opposing into reverse and typically i come into the slip so quietly i dont need any reverse to stop it.
I do know that I need to better learn how to work with the wind and current, part of that is also predicting how the wind/current will affect the docking.
I dont have a big problem going out by myself, though if the wind is really bad I will typically wait it out or not go out that day.

I have yet to put the boat in stern first, what is the technique and advantage here?

*It's hard to explain how a technique works in your particular situation...especially if you have different direction current and winds.

It's better to learn how your boat handles...then apply whatever technique fits the set of environmental conditions you are facing.

A good boat handler is worth paying to show you the first couple of times...shouldn't cost more than repairing a good ding!* Me I charge around 50-100 depending if its 2-4 hrs.* A good boat handler may not be a good instructor or knw much about boating...but in this case that's not what you are paying for...heck some 15 yr olds handle boats better than many long time boaters I know.


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 22nd of November 2011 02:34:22 PM

 

[koliver]

Per said "the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents."

They call that a "Hard Landing"
to be avoided.

Per also asked about reversinginto the slip:

With twins, all of your steering control is at the stern. Once the stern is confined by the slip, a finger float on one side and another boat or slip on the other, you lose all of that steerage and now only control your speed. Meanwhile, the bow is subject to outside forces, wind and current, so will go where pushed. Backing in with twins, no thruster, must be done very quickly, if there are sufficient outside forces acting on the bow to upset your plans.

I end up backing into my shelter on average a couple of times a year. the opening is 2 ft wider than the stern of my boat. A miss by only an inch would be costly. If there is currect or wind, or both, the technique is to get lined up, upwind/upcurrent, and drift down on the opening, getting within a foot or so, and when clear, apply enough reverse power to get inside before the bow falls off. the same technique will get you into an open slip, which should have more room for error.

 

[chc]

How true! I can back our Californian 34 into our shared slip about 1/2 way before the bow starts to swing toward the neighboring boat. Unless we have people on the dock toi catch lines, it goes downhill from there.. Pigheadedness usually leads me to keep trying to back in, as opposed to running bow in & then turning it around on a calmer day. Another educational set of postings that will make our dockings better next season. Thanks all. Have a great Thanksgiving.

 

[millennium]

"a finger float on one side and another boat or slip on the other"

Try when the boat next door is a 2 million sportfish who's flaired sides are right at bowrail height. And the finger pier is only 20' long so no bow in. Then add 20 knots blowing blowing across the bow. Single handed.

I went to the fuel dock instead, told them I'll move it in the morning.

 

[Marin]

Per wrote:
the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

Depends on how what you consider momentum.** It's all a matter of judgement. You need to keep way on to mainain rudder authority, but you want to be almost stopped when you reach the point where you're next to your finger as far into the slip as you want to go.* It takes a good feel for the decelereation rate of your boat plus knowing how the particular*current or wind or both that you have to deal with affects your steerage and deceleration.

We turn toward our slip at idle speed (a bit over 3 knots) at which point we have great rudder authority.* But we know the deceleration rate of our boat when we shift to neutral so it's all a matter of judgement and timing to bring the boat alongside the finger all the way into the slip just as the boat comes to a stop.* And we use differential thrust or offset thrust to move the stern or, do a degree, the bow as we slide in to put the boat against the finger.

It's one of those things you can't describe in words, you just have to do it and learn the sight picture and the characteristics of your boat.

In many ways it's exactly like docking a floatplane although the boat is much easier because you have big water rudders, reverse, and*in our case differential thrust.* In the floatplane it's ALL judgement because you shut the engine down some distance from the dock and let your momentum carry you in.* And because floatplanes are so easy to damage you have to arrive at the dock just as the plane is driting to a stop.* Not so hard in calm conditions, but it can get tricky with a contrary wind or current or if there is only a small space at the dock between planes.* I find docking the boat is the same only I have a few more aids at my disposal.

 

[FF]

I went to the fuel dock instead, told them I'll move it in the morning.


Always the best solution for stoopid docking conditions!

 

[Edelweiss]

FF wrote:
I went to the fuel dock instead, told them I'll move it in the morning.


Always the best solution for stoopid docking conditions!

*A nice service that our Port office will do, is help you dock if*conditions are bad or you are single handing it.**Give them a call 10 minutes in advance and they will meet you at your slip to catch a line.* Getting that stern line to the dock and using your engines properly gets you to the dock in the worse conditions.

 

[millennium]

Do you guys with twins ever put the helm hard over away from the wind so the downwind engine in forward will kick the stern into the wind?

I have tried this, doesn't do much with my boat. Rudders probably to small.

 

[Per]

millennium wrote:
Do you guys with twins ever put the helm hard over away from the wind so the downwind engine in forward will kick the stern into the wind?

I have tried this, doesn't do much with my boat. Rudders probably to small.

*are you describing a crosswind? windblowing across.

i wonder what has better steering effect, using the downwind engine with rudder full (or as needed) away from the wind or the rudder into the wind and forward on the upwind engine ?

i am guessing the first one, considering the prop will throw the wash thru the rudder. though possible these two forces just more of less cancel each other out?

 

[Per]

Marin wrote:Per wrote:
the guys going into a slip with momentum and then reversing to avoid a crash will sooner or later run into the slip and with momentum it will make more than dents.

Depends on how what you consider momentum.** It's all a matter of judgement. You need to keep way on to mainain rudder authority, but you want to be almost stopped when you reach the point where you're next to your finger as far into the slip as you want to go.* It takes a good feel for the decelereation rate of your boat plus knowing how the particular*current or wind or both that you have to deal with affects your steerage and deceleration.

We turn toward our slip at idle speed (a bit over 3 knots) at which point we have great rudder authority.* But we know the deceleration rate of our boat when we shift to neutral so it's all a matter of judgement and timing to bring the boat alongside the finger all the way into the slip just as the boat comes to a stop.* And we use differential thrust or offset thrust to move the stern or, do a degree, the bow as we slide in to put the boat against the finger.

It's one of those things you can't describe in words, you just have to do it and learn the sight picture and the characteristics of your boat.

*

*sounds nice, i dont have a lot of rudder response at idle and i definitively dont want to go faster into the slip so its critical for me to learn the twin steering techniques.

 

[Edelweiss]

I'm with you Per.* You don't want to come in with too much speed or none at all, but*just enough to keep steerage.*

With my boat and on a starboard side*dock, I've found that the wind or tide tends to push the bow out quickly, so I don't come in parallel with the slip.* I usually push the bow in so the boat is at a slight angle to the dock.* Both engines in neutral and as the boat reaches the outer piling put the port engine in reverse which slows the boat and slowly pushes*the bow away from the dock and the stern in.**I don't usually use the rudders once I'm in that close.* You can then use a combination of forward - reverse and maybe a little more*or less RPM if necessary to walk the boat in tight.* It's kind of fun once you get the hang of it.

But you lose your touch*quickly without frequent use.* Every Spring when we start using the boat more.* I have to practice a few landings just to get the feel for it back.