Upper helm only boats

[ondmtn]

Question for all of you who have experience on boats with upper helm only, meaning there is no lower helm. In rainy weather, are you able to see through the isinglass? Thinking that not having windshield wipers limits visibility. Have you been out and caught in a storm?

My thinking is that having a lower helm gives you another option and wipers when caught in rain / mist / fog.

 

[Comodave]

Our last boat only had an upper helm. We had EZ2CY panels made for the front. I templated them and had a fabricator in NJ make them. We used Sumner 210 spray wax to clean and coat all the eisenglass and the panels. It certainly helped the rain bead and run off.

 

[rslifkin]

It depends on the boat and how the upper helm is enclosed. My boat is upper helm only, but it's not a flybridge. The helm is on top of the aft cabin looking over the top of the salon (vs a flybridge on top of the salon). And I have real windshields (with good wipers) for the helm. I wouldn't mind if my windshields were a few inches taller and I'd love a hardtop in place of the bimini, but in general, I've never wished for a lower helm (and the space it would consume).

I don't know that I'd be as happy with just a flybridge and no lower helm, but it would depend on how the flybridge is enclosed. And not all boats with a lower helm necessarily have a good, usable lower helm. Some are kind of an afterthought shoved in the corner just in case of rain.

Here are a couple pictures showing the placement of the helm on the boat and the view from the helm.

 

[CaptTom]

In 9 years with my boat, I've run from the lower helm once, just to try it out. Otherwise, always from the flybridge. Same for deliveries and friends' boats.


We run in rain and fog all the time. Visibility is still better up top, even without wipers. I have a full enclosure, but even on boats without that, I'd rather put on foulies than try to run from a lower helm.

 

[DonW28]

Our boat only has an upper helm. Fully enclosed with good curtains. It is our second in a row that we have owned without a lower helm. But if we boated in the PNW and not primarily in the south I'd probably feel completely different. Running a boat from the inside here in Florida without the generator going for AC is miserable. I've been on the Chesapeake in November and been perfectly fine inside the curtains. Everyone has a preference but we like being outside when we boat. Not to mention you can see better.



Don

 

[alormaria]

Upper helm nice weather. Lower helm bad weather.

 

[backinblue]

Aside from visibility issues, I wouldn't want an upper helm only boat due to the ride in rough weather. On a friend's boat in decent seas, we got tossed around pretty good in the flybridge. It also adds to the challenge of docking especially if you are single or short-handed. I know it can be done, but it's certainly not as convenient as being at dock level.

 

[koliver]

Aside from visibility issues, I wouldn't want an upper helm only boat due to the ride in rough weather. On a friend's boat in decent seas, we got tossed around pretty good in the flybridge. It also adds to the challenge of docking especially if you are single or short-handed. I know it can be done, but it's certainly not as convenient as being at dock level.

I find that it is a trade-off for docking. Upper gets you far better visibility, as for knowing your stern is past the boat behind, while also being able to see the boat in front, while lower is closer to handing a line or stepping with a line, to the dock. For double handing I almost never come in without the visibility of the upper. For single, I need to be closer so tying up is quicker. I prefer tying Stb side to when single handing, Port side to when double, as the door by the helm affords visibility and access to Stb when single, Port is a wider access to the saloon, so is preferred when not alone.

 

[Shrew]

I embark/debark from the lower helm exclusively. Visibility is tough from both locations, but better from below. I can see the port stern quarter from the inside, and the stbd stern quarter if I lean out the helm door. The midship cleat is right there, and I'm already more than halfway to the bow cleat.

I pickup and drop moorings from the upper.

 

[backinblue]

Remember the OP was not wondering about the pros and cons that each helm provide, but rather more about what it is like to have only an upper helm.

 

[rslifkin]

The single handing concern is a real one. Due to the helm placement, I consider my boat entirely unsuitable for single handing. Getting to / from the helm takes too long, especially if docking stbd side to. The step down from the helm area to the aft deck is to port, and to port you have the option to dive down the cabin steps and out the side door. But docking with 2 people, it's no problem. Having someone already on the side deck to get the first line or 2 on means the few seconds to step down and get to a stern line is no problem.

 

[ranger58sb]

Question for all of you who have experience on boats with upper helm only, meaning there is no lower helm. In rainy weather, are you able to see through the isinglass? Thinking that not having windshield wipers limits visibility. Have you been out and caught in a storm?

My thinking is that having a lower helm gives you another option and wipers when caught in rain / mist / fog.

We have flybridge helm only, and yes, we can generally see reasonably well in normal rain. I think some brands of clear enclosure also allow use of stuff like Rain-X, although we haven't tried that (or routinely needed it).

In a couple serious thunderstorms, visibility did become an issue, but that didn't have anything to do with "upper helm only" or enclosure material. Folks down below couldn't see through the windshield either. Radar was our friend!

We had a lower helm once. Liked it, Used it two or three times over our lifetime with that boat. Mostly when the big dogs -- who couldn't climb the flybridge ladder -- got nervous in serious chop. Can't say the wipers down there were wonderful.

Ref the thread drift: there are flybridge boats with decent docking visibility, and then there are other flybridge boats where visibility aft isn't great. Wheel way forward, cockpit overhang, sometimes you can't see squat while trying to go stern-to a 4-way slip. Wheel aft (as in many sportfish or convertible models) often much better for backing down... or in.

Single-handing can be iffy. I can do it often. Sometimes I can't. Mostly depends on tides, current, and/or wind relative to the proposed tie-up. But then I usually only run alone when I'm moving the boat to the pump-out and/or fuel dock and back, or when doing a weekly-ish barnacle run.

-Chris

 

[Solly]

I don't think it's a big issue. Been caught twice in thunderstorms and wouldn't have been able to see no matter where the helm was. And marine wipers are a poor excuse to keep windows clear. Usually they are shot and falling apart about when you need them.
Don't get caught in storms... Or if you do, find a piece of empty water and jog in place. You don't want to be docking in blinding rain and high wind anyway either.

 

[jleonard]

In 9 years with my boat, I've run from the lower helm once, just to try it out. Otherwise, always from the flybridge. Same for deliveries and friends' boats.


We run in rain and fog all the time. Visibility is still better up top, even without wipers. I have a full enclosure, but even on boats without that, I'd rather put on foulies than try to run from a lower helm.

Pretty much the same sentiment except I have 30 years. Lower helm is mostly for maintenance. Even at anchor during a thunderstorm, I go into the flybridge enclosure.

 

[ondmtn]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate all of the posts. Good points to consider, besides weather, as I do single hand my boat quite a bit.

 

[backinblue]

I don't think it's a big issue. Been caught twice in thunderstorms and wouldn't have been able to see no matter where the helm was. And marine wipers are a poor excuse to keep windows clear. Usually they are shot and falling apart about when you need them.
Don't get caught in storms... Or if you do, find a piece of empty water and jog in place. You don't want to be docking in blinding rain and high wind anyway either.

Wipers not working just means lack of upkeep. I find them useful, not so much in thunderstorms as when running in rough seas where there is a good deal of water being splashed into the window. They help quite a bit along with rain-x on the windshield. However, almost nobody has commented on comfort in rough weather. You get tossed around a lot more on a flybridge vs a lower enclosed helm. Yes you can mostly avoid bad weather, but when you can't I'd hate for the only option to be up high in rough seas.

 

[psneeld]

Depends on the boat and somewhat the skipper.

I have stood beside a skipper or 50 and they seem to have a completely different opinion than me what is acceptable for visibility than what I think.

So toss a coin.....

 

[CaptTom]

Pretty much the same sentiment except I have 30 years. Lower helm is mostly for maintenance. Even at anchor during a thunderstorm, I go into the flybridge enclosure.

Well, if we're going there, I ran my first flybridge-equipped boat over 45 years ago. It had a lower helm but none of us ever used it. It was a light 23-footer and pretty rolly up there in rough seas, but we never went below.

I've gone up to the flybridge to ride out passing squalls at anchor, too.

 

[ranger58sb]

Wipers not working just means lack of upkeep. I find them useful, not so much in thunderstorms as when running in rough seas where there is a good deal of water being splashed into the window. They help quite a bit along with rain-x on the windshield. However, almost nobody has commented on comfort in rough weather. You get tossed around a lot more on a flybridge vs a lower enclosed helm. Yes you can mostly avoid bad weather, but when you can't I'd hate for the only option to be up high in rough seas.

Yes, it can be a bit of work to stay up top in rough seas, especially beam seas. OTOH, visibility is so much better from above that being below wouldn't usually be much of an improvement for us.

Visibility from above would be a matter of two complementary components: height, for better viewing close ahead (e.g., for crab pots); and less likelihood of waves breaking on the flybridge. "Less" though -- not "none."

Even when we had a lower helm, visibility was almost always better from above... so we almost always piloted from up there. We even tried an experimental "single story" boat (express sportfish) with lower helm only, for a few years. Nice boat, but we really REALLY didn't like visibility from the helm on that one.

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Comfort up high is definitely an issue. I've occasionally wished I were down a bit lower for that reason. But at the same time, my helm isn't really much (if any) higher than a raised pilothouse would be on a similar size boat (and it's in about the same spot you'd put an aft pilothouse).

 

[rgano]

In 9 years with my boat, I've run from the lower helm once, just to try it out. Otherwise, always from the flybridge. Same for deliveries and friends' boats.


We run in rain and fog all the time. Visibility is still better up top, even without wipers. I have a full enclosure, but even on boats without that, I'd rather put on foulies than try to run from a lower helm.

Just to show there are always other views, my trawler had a complete enclosure at the upper helm which was useless and dangerous to run the boat from in fog and heavy rain. The radar, fog horn controls, windshield wipers, etc, etc were all at the lower station. In the early mornings when I wanted to get going, the isinglass would be opaque with dew/fog, and it was a PITA to wipe it clean. Better to start off from down below and come topside later in the day when it cleared off. I ran my boat 90% of the time from the lower station and 100% from there on night passages in open water because of the open exterior steps to the flying bridge. That's 29 years of such practices.

 

[psneeld]

Just to show there are always other views, my trawler had a complete enclosure at the upper helm which was useless and dangerous to run the boat from in fog and heavy rain. The radar, fog horn controls, windshield wipers, etc, etc were all at the lower station. In the early mornings when I wanted to get going, the isinglass would be opaque with dew/fog, and it was a PITA to wipe it clean. Better to start off from down below and come topside later in the day when it cleared off. I ran my boat 90% of the time from the lower station and 100% from there on night passages in open water because of the open exterior steps to the flying bridge. That's 29 years of such practices.

Agree 100%....

Every boat and situation is dependent on boat, captain, environmentals... so my typical response to boating questions..."it depends"....

I solved the too rough to drive from above issue..... stop going out on rough days and even then rarely drive from there.

Then again in 20,000 miles of ICW on my boat...the lower helm was preferable on many levels so 95+% of my time at the wheel was down below. After thousands of hours driving all kinds of vessels.... the "ambiance" of flybridge operation just wasn't there anymore.....

 

[backinblue]

PS, sometimes I find rough days are not predicted or avoidable, but then again my schedule is probably not as flexible as yours......yet! But when you just have to deal with rough seas, I like being able to button everything up tight and feel very secure under my hardtop with a windshield and wipers.

 

[psneeld]

PS, sometimes I find rough days are not predicted or avoidable, but then again my schedule is probably not as flexible as yours......yet! But when you just have to deal with rough seas, I like being able to button everything up tight and feel very secure under my hardtop with a windshield and wipers.

That's nice.....

My weather and sea experience also allows better interpretation of what migh occir or not each day.

To me....there is nothing like a flybridge for ghosting through nearly perfectly clear waters of the islands and seeing everything from the bottom up on a perfect tropical day....sailing is pretty good too...but to me.... the vantage point wins.

 

[ranger58sb]

In the early mornings when I wanted to get going, the isinglass would be opaque with dew/fog, and it was a PITA to wipe it clean.

Yep, there is that!

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

That's nice.....

My weather and sea experience also allows better interpretation of what migh occir or not each day.

To me....there is nothing like a flybridge for ghosting through nearly perfectly clear waters of the islands and seeing everything from the bottom up on a perfect tropical day....sailing is pretty good too...but to me.... the vantage point wins.

I agree and there are many times I really wish I had a flybridge. But as the OP asked, if I could only have 1 or the other and not both, I would choose the lower.

I guess I am gaining some more weather experience the hard way. I've always been a bit of a weather freak and depend more on weather maps than forecasts many times. The part I'm still learning is that I always check the marine forecast for the area I am in. More often than not it will say "seas 1 foot or less". Many times that forecast will leave me in 3-4 ft swells. So when they forecast 1 to 2 foot seas, I know it's going to be rough!

 

[ranger58sb]

I guess I am gaining some more weather experience the hard way. I've always been a bit of a weather freak and depend more on weather maps than forecasts many times. The part I'm still learning is that I always check the marine forecast for the area I am in. More often than not it will say "seas 1 foot or less". Many times that forecast will leave me in 3-4 ft swells. So when they forecast 1 to 2 foot seas, I know it's going to be rough!

The marine forecast only has to be right for about an hour a day... and that's generally easy.



If it helps, my fastest quick-check is a comparison of wind direction/speed against tide/current direction/speed at various forecast times throughout a potential travel day.

Wind against wave often sucks. Wind and wave together, often acceptable even if it seems odd.

Not foolproof, of course... but if that passes, I can evaluate area forecasts a bit more closely... and include normal weather forecasting for the area... and maybe even have an actual look outside before making any decisions.

I do remember two really crappy weather days. Once fishing, where wind piped up and turned against the tide while we were out... and it went downhill from there. Eventually had to troll into the waves, but then it got worse and I had to worry about stuffing the bow pulpit... so we executed the best 180° turn I could manage and we called it a day. Somewhere during that one of the guys came up from the cockpit, saw how I was braced for that whole pendulum thing, and he beat feet back downstairs. Said they'd had no idea down below what it was like up above.

The other I remember was when the Admiral and I were moving from Georgetown to Southport outside. The Little River Swing Bridge was down, had been down for a few days, no repair prognosis in sight... with early Covid concerns about cross-state travel, and bridge staffing (or not?)... and the weather forecast outside was actually pretty decent. Reality set in, of course, and we had to re-arrange most of the stuff down in the saloon and galley afterwards even after slowing to a grim, three-times-longer-trip than we'd planned, at ~8 kts. Admiral still fairly leery about that whole "outside" thing.

But then again... I guess I'm lucky to be able to say those are the only two stand-out episodes -- over lots o' years -- where piloting from the flybridge wasn't all that great.

-Chris

 

[BandB]

If your only helm is on a flybridge, then you make it the best you possibly can. That means EZ2CY or similar rather than regular materials. Even better to just have a real windshield made out of glass which is not that difficult to do. If it's going to be your 4 season helm, then do everything you can to make it the best possible. Same with things like line handling. Have the lines set up where you can quickly access and tie. Even better to have a remote or side set of controls like Yacht Controller.

Also, pay attention to creature comfort. You're not going to be your best if you're freezing to death for hours. Easy to warm up the bridge or even to cool with a nice breeze. And maintain your top and glass in peak condition.

 

[markpierce]

Aside from visibility issues, I wouldn't want an upper helm only boat due to the ride in rough weather. On a friend's boat in decent seas, we got tossed around pretty good in the flybridge. It also adds to the challenge of docking especially if you are single or short-handed. I know it can be done, but it's certainly not as convenient as being at dock level.

Prefer having one-second access to deck from helm.

 

[ranger58sb]

If your only helm is on a flybridge, then you make it the best you possibly can. That means EZ2CY or similar rather than regular materials. Even better to just have a real windshield made out of glass which is not that difficult to do. If it's going to be your 4 season helm, then do everything you can to make it the best possible. Same with things like line handling. Have the lines set up where you can quickly access and tie. Even better to have a remote or side set of controls like Yacht Controller.

Also, pay attention to creature comfort. You're not going to be your best if you're freezing to death for hours. Easy to warm up the bridge or even to cool with a nice breeze. And maintain your top and glass in peak condition.

Yep. And maybe we'll get around to that YC thing one year...

-Chris