Upper vs Lower Helm
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Moonstruck
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Seahorse, no offense taken.* I should have put a smiley on mine.* The problem with these types of communications is there is no inflection.* Without*connotations it is hard to tell the true meanings of messages.
Things can wind up with a different meaning than they were intended to have.* That being said, isn't it great when grandkids ask to spend time with grand parents?
Back to the subject at hand.* I love sitting up on a fly bridge, but as we get a little older, we need to be available for qucker access, and the sun has taken its toll after 40 years of boating.* At this stage a pilot house just makes more sense.* As FF said, getting under most bridges without having them raised is a big plus.
Things can wind up with a different meaning than they were intended to have.* That being said, isn't it great when grandkids ask to spend time with grand parents?
Back to the subject at hand.* I love sitting up on a fly bridge, but as we get a little older, we need to be available for qucker access, and the sun has taken its toll after 40 years of boating.* At this stage a pilot house just makes more sense.* As FF said, getting under most bridges without having them raised is a big plus.
Phil Fill
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Having a fly bridge and/or using it might be a health/safety issue.* Being a live aboard and/or older with sun damaged skin our doctors have advised to stay out of the sun as much as possible.* Several of our neighbors have had spots removed and we have several that are check each year.* Also as you get older climbing ladders/step stairs becomes an issue, using the lower helm keeps you close to the people/boat/dock, and prevents people climbing around on the boat.* If we had a command bridge we could/would not use it.* Besides the pilot house is air conditioned and heated.**
Pineapple Girl
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This is such an interesting discussion!
We have had our boat just under three months and have put a little over 30 hours on it.* We fully expected to do most of our driving from the flybridge as we imagined the visibility from the lower helm would be poor.* We were pleasantly surprised that the lower helm visibility is fine and we have driven from down there quite a bit.* It mostly has depended how far we have to go.* Short trips we usually stay up top; longer trips we are below where we can keep an eye and ear on things and we are closer to all the "amenities."*
We have struggled with seating at the lower helm.* Our galley is down and our saloon has an L shaped settee with a movable, adjustable height table.* It has rubber feet and has yet to slide from where we place it.* It finally occurred to us to place it as our "helmseat" and it makes a nice bench with plenty of room for both of us.**A backrest would be nice but it isn't half bad.* We tend to move around a lot on watch anyway, standing to look out all the ports frequently and that type of thing, so it is okay so far.* The upper helm is more comfortable for the driver as there is a very nice helmsman's chair, though*the other seating with backrests faces sideways.*
I am glad to have both, personally!
-- Edited by Pineapple Girl on Monday 29th of November 2010 03:49:25 PM
We have had our boat just under three months and have put a little over 30 hours on it.* We fully expected to do most of our driving from the flybridge as we imagined the visibility from the lower helm would be poor.* We were pleasantly surprised that the lower helm visibility is fine and we have driven from down there quite a bit.* It mostly has depended how far we have to go.* Short trips we usually stay up top; longer trips we are below where we can keep an eye and ear on things and we are closer to all the "amenities."*
We have struggled with seating at the lower helm.* Our galley is down and our saloon has an L shaped settee with a movable, adjustable height table.* It has rubber feet and has yet to slide from where we place it.* It finally occurred to us to place it as our "helmseat" and it makes a nice bench with plenty of room for both of us.**A backrest would be nice but it isn't half bad.* We tend to move around a lot on watch anyway, standing to look out all the ports frequently and that type of thing, so it is okay so far.* The upper helm is more comfortable for the driver as there is a very nice helmsman's chair, though*the other seating with backrests faces sideways.*
I am glad to have both, personally!
-- Edited by Pineapple Girl on Monday 29th of November 2010 03:49:25 PM
ralphyost
Senior Member
We love running the boat from the fly bridge. Its much better visibility. You can spot objects and grass clumps in the water much much better from that vantage point. It also affords more 360 deg visibility too as the cabin house is not surrounding you.
We do run the boat from the main salon when the weather is bad and cold. Another advantage of running from down below is when you anticipate a lot of roll in the sea, since you are located closer to the center of gravity in the boat.
I'm in the process of putting in all new electronics so that I have the same capability in both steering stations. I dont have this now.
I installed a stereo system that has a remote control capability mounted on the fly bridge. This allows me to volume control and mute which I consider an essential safety feature. Allows me to correctly use and hear the VHF radio and especially for docking to communicate to the deck hands.
If you use VHF radios that have remote mics, you can have dual VHF radios at each location as well....one on Ch 16 and one on 13 for example.
We do run the boat from the main salon when the weather is bad and cold. Another advantage of running from down below is when you anticipate a lot of roll in the sea, since you are located closer to the center of gravity in the boat.
I'm in the process of putting in all new electronics so that I have the same capability in both steering stations. I dont have this now.
I installed a stereo system that has a remote control capability mounted on the fly bridge. This allows me to volume control and mute which I consider an essential safety feature. Allows me to correctly use and hear the VHF radio and especially for docking to communicate to the deck hands.
If you use VHF radios that have remote mics, you can have dual VHF radios at each location as well....one on Ch 16 and one on 13 for example.
dwhatty
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Having had a boat that had no flybridge for 22 years, we now enjoy the ability to chose which helm to use based upon weather and visibility. With only a lower helm on the old boat, the person at the helm always felt confined and isolated from, and not in touch with, guests and crew who tended to congregate in the cockpit or the aft end of the wheelhouse. And visibility for the things in the water that might go bump is definitely better from the bridge, as well as added square footage of living/entertaining space. When our mobility decreases with age/health we may have to use the lower helm more or go back to a no flybridge boat but, until then, we are enjoying what we have.
johnma
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In the three years we've had the boat, Ive only used the lower station twice. However, I like having the option, and I expect to use it more often in the coming years. Because of the way I have the sofa, there is no way to put seating in for the lower station, and standing for hours on end can get tiring.
John
John
Carey
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Personally, I overheat easily, therefore the flybridge would never be my choice, except on a seventy degree, overcast day. I enjoy the shade, the proximity to the refrigerator, and full electronics.*
If, however, I didn't have two forward facing seats in the pilothouse, I would likely insist on a hard topped bimini topside, so myself and the admiral could both look ahead. Fortunately, as we began our search for the perfect boat, we discovered that most boats did not offer two seats facing forward with equal visibility. That became one of our primary criteria. Why should the admiral sit at the dinette, with no forward visibility?
On that rare, perfect northwest day, we will go topside and let the wind hit us in the face. Ahhh...!!!! Not only do we enjoy those particularly fine rides, but you can't beat the view from topside when entering unfamiliar or particularly tight mooring quarters. Being able to see both ends of the boat without moving is really nice.
Bottom line is that it is really nice to have the option of flybridge or pilothouse.
-- Edited by Carey on Monday 29th of November 2010 10:27:06 PM
If, however, I didn't have two forward facing seats in the pilothouse, I would likely insist on a hard topped bimini topside, so myself and the admiral could both look ahead. Fortunately, as we began our search for the perfect boat, we discovered that most boats did not offer two seats facing forward with equal visibility. That became one of our primary criteria. Why should the admiral sit at the dinette, with no forward visibility?
On that rare, perfect northwest day, we will go topside and let the wind hit us in the face. Ahhh...!!!! Not only do we enjoy those particularly fine rides, but you can't beat the view from topside when entering unfamiliar or particularly tight mooring quarters. Being able to see both ends of the boat without moving is really nice.
Bottom line is that it is really nice to have the option of flybridge or pilothouse.
-- Edited by Carey on Monday 29th of November 2010 10:27:06 PM
We love the flybridge and upper helm.* It was on our short list of requirements when looking for this boat.* When we were negotiating for our boat, there was another Westcoast 46 next to her with a radar arch, hardtop and full canvas.* It gave a huge covered area and was warm on a mid March day.
My wife lobbied hard for adding the same setup and she was right.* It adds a lot of usable space in Northwest spring and fall weather.* I thought that I would run mainly from the lower helm, but we spend almost all of our time up above.* Attached are before and after pictures.
Lyle
My wife lobbied hard for adding the same setup and she was right.* It adds a lot of usable space in Northwest spring and fall weather.* I thought that I would run mainly from the lower helm, but we spend almost all of our time up above.* Attached are before and after pictures.
Lyle
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Norwester, what make/model is your boat? Your radar arch/aft deck hardtop totally changes your boat- looks awesome! Picture attached of our lower helm.*
I love the "permenant" mounted chair at our lower helm- very comfortable (though not a STIDD!!), great sight lines, etc. and rotates so someone can sit there at anchor and talk with everyone in the salon. *Sight lines facing aft while at the lower helm are not great but the window right next to the helm chair opens so I can also just poke my head out the window! *
*Our flybridge helm has forward facing seating for 3 and seating for 4-5 aft via free standing chairs. On the few hot days we had her in the water when we first bought her and prior to hauling out to begin our refit/move to TN, cruising from the bridge with my feet propped up= GOOD TIMES! *I would not use the lower helm as much if it did not have a solidly mounted helm chair like it does.
For comparison purposes, here is a video shot underway from our lower helm:
And here is one shot from the bridge while underway:
P.S. love the grandkids pics!
-- Edited by Woodsong on Tuesday 30th of November 2010 12:06:05 AM
I love the "permenant" mounted chair at our lower helm- very comfortable (though not a STIDD!!), great sight lines, etc. and rotates so someone can sit there at anchor and talk with everyone in the salon. *Sight lines facing aft while at the lower helm are not great but the window right next to the helm chair opens so I can also just poke my head out the window! *
*Our flybridge helm has forward facing seating for 3 and seating for 4-5 aft via free standing chairs. On the few hot days we had her in the water when we first bought her and prior to hauling out to begin our refit/move to TN, cruising from the bridge with my feet propped up= GOOD TIMES! *I would not use the lower helm as much if it did not have a solidly mounted helm chair like it does.For comparison purposes, here is a video shot underway from our lower helm:
And here is one shot from the bridge while underway:
P.S. love the grandkids pics!
-- Edited by Woodsong on Tuesday 30th of November 2010 12:06:05 AM
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Woodsong,
Our boat is a Westcoast 46.* There were 23-24 of them made in Mission, B.C. from 2004 through 2008.* The story is that Forbes Cooper and his production manager found the molds for the 43 Tollycraft lying in a field in Washington State.* They thought that it would be perfect for their new project, but the cockpit was too small.* They lengthened the cockpit by 3 feet and built a new boat out of a 30 year old Ed Monk, Jr. design.
Our boat is not a trawler, buy an cockpit motor yacht.* However, our boat and one other are powered by a single 270B Cummins, instead of twins.* That means we don't really plane.* The boat is happiest around 7-9 knots and will get up to 12-13 knots at the top end. *
I've attached a picture of the lower helm.* I have a movable chair because of the configuration of the salon.* It's not really a good solution and I have to come up with something different.
Lyle
Lyle
Our boat is a Westcoast 46.* There were 23-24 of them made in Mission, B.C. from 2004 through 2008.* The story is that Forbes Cooper and his production manager found the molds for the 43 Tollycraft lying in a field in Washington State.* They thought that it would be perfect for their new project, but the cockpit was too small.* They lengthened the cockpit by 3 feet and built a new boat out of a 30 year old Ed Monk, Jr. design.
Our boat is not a trawler, buy an cockpit motor yacht.* However, our boat and one other are powered by a single 270B Cummins, instead of twins.* That means we don't really plane.* The boat is happiest around 7-9 knots and will get up to 12-13 knots at the top end. *
I've attached a picture of the lower helm.* I have a movable chair because of the configuration of the salon.* It's not really a good solution and I have to come up with something different.
Lyle
Lyle
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Andy G
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I think the useability of the fly bridge depends to a large extent on how you access it.
On an aft cabin configeration you have the first two steps on to the deckhouse over the cabin trunk then three steps up to the flybridge itself, this is quite differnt from the verticle ladders that saloon configeration boats have, they are definately more of a challenge. Of course pilot house boats have the best of both worlds.
We use the flybridge almost all the time , in fact we have only used the lower helm twice in 11 years.All you need is a good set of 'clears', warm jacket and good bottle of red.
On an aft cabin configeration you have the first two steps on to the deckhouse over the cabin trunk then three steps up to the flybridge itself, this is quite differnt from the verticle ladders that saloon configeration boats have, they are definately more of a challenge. Of course pilot house boats have the best of both worlds.
We use the flybridge almost all the time , in fact we have only used the lower helm twice in 11 years.All you need is a good set of 'clears', warm jacket and good bottle of red.
Steve
Guru
I added a helm seat, firmly attached to the floor. I made an extension*which allows it to be used tall, when driving the boat, or as a std. height seating chair. It slides back enought so if it gets really rough I can stand at the lower helm to drive. I added a strong handhold at the helm.
Steve W
-- Edited by Steve on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 08:09:22 AM
Steve W
-- Edited by Steve on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 08:09:22 AM
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skipperdude
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I like your little seahorse.
SD
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There is a point that has been missed in all of this discussion and that is separation from the Admiral. I do not mean this with any disrespect to any of the SO's out there. But the flybridge allows you to gt away from each other when on long trips...this is a healthy thing. You are spending DAYS couped up on this little piece of fiberglass. Getting away from each other for a few hours in such a small space is quite a luxury. I will be piloting, she would be down below reading and sleeping and having "lazy time"....all is well for both of us.
This was on the P29. Now with the Mainship we can't get away from each other. Even on Moonstruck's INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL flybridgeless sedan, you are still right next to each other the whole trip. Anyway, just a thought...
And I want to reiterate, this is with all dues respect to the SO's out there....inluding my wife. Looking at her is easy...
....but it is nice to able to get some separation.
This was on the P29. Now with the Mainship we can't get away from each other. Even on Moonstruck's INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL flybridgeless sedan, you are still right next to each other the whole trip. Anyway, just a thought...
And I want to reiterate, this is with all dues respect to the SO's out there....inluding my wife. Looking at her is easy...
Pineapple Girl
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LOL.* But if I am not up on the flybridge with him how is he going to send me to get him stuff?* Oh right, we DO have an intercom!*Baker wrote:
There is a point that has been missed in all of this discussion and that is separation from the Admiral. I do not mean this with any disrespect to any of the SO's out there. But the flybridge allows you to gt away from each other when on long trips...this is a healthy thing. You are spending DAYS couped up on this little piece of fiberglass. Getting away from each other for a few hours in such a small space is quite a luxury. I will be piloting, she would be down below reading and sleeping and having "lazy time"....all is well for both of us.
This was on the P29. Now with the Mainship we can't get away from each other. Even on Moonstruck's INCREDIBLY BEAUTIFUL flybridgeless sedan, you are still right next to each other the whole trip. Anyway, just a thought...
And I want to reiterate, this is with all dues respect to the SO's out there....inluding my wife. Looking at her is easy.......but it is nice to able to get some separation.
I am usually sitting with him, "on watch," when he is driving and he even lets me drive sometimes.*
*
Moonstruck
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WOW! At my age I had almost completely forgotten this environment. I might have
to change my opinion of having a flybridge.
Yep, this is cause for some serious reconsideration.* All this while I'm still trying to figure out why I sold my Mainship.
*
Pineapple Girl
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oh dang I think I missed something good. *LOL.*
*
markpierce
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LOL?* This is serious business.* ...* There*are a lot of positive*things about having*my LTGF live in her own home.**Thus, in my situation, having two separate bridges on the boat are unnecessary because whenever we're together it's because we want to.
*
-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 04:19:34 PM
RT Firefly
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Hiya,
* Mr. Woodsong.* Nope it wasn't a helm picture it was more of a transom shot.
* Mr. Woodsong.* Nope it wasn't a helm picture it was more of a transom shot.
skipperdude
Guru
*Seahorse,
I ment the little one behind your grand Admiral.
SD
-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 04:19:24 PM
I ment the little one behind your grand Admiral.
SD
-- Edited by skipperdude on Wednesday 1st of December 2010 04:19:24 PM
Avista
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We looked only at boats Without a lower helm when we bought Victoria last year. Our cruising is confined to the Florida and Caribbean where we enjoy the view and especially the ability to see our way throught the 'thin waters' and coral heads that are abundant in the Bahamas. Our Bridge does have a hard top though with a full enclosure and is comfortable in pretty low temps (here in Central Florida, that's high twenties for us) with the windows closed. Plus we gained a nice wet bar where the lower helm would otherwise be!
C lectric
Guru
Yes, One must look seriously at the + & - of upper vs lower and the type of cruising one does and when.. None of these configurations will fit us all.
For us we used to kick the frozen lines free of the tie rails, push the snow off in winter. In the side seasons it was heavy rain and I had to change the old, crappy wipers to good ones. A few years we played ice breaker, thankfully, not often and the ice wasn't more than about 3/4" - 1" and i'm guessing somewhat soft. Sure made a funny noise on the hull. Never lost more than paint.
Of course we had lots of sunny, warm weather where the bridge was nice. But we had to account for our already proven willingness/foolishness to go out in crappy weather and we decided we needed a good inside steer station.
We know many folk over the years , that come the end of September, and the cold weather that the boat is essentially put to bed, particularily if they cannot get to a dock. We didn't want that.
Our previous boat was an express cruiser that had a real hardtop and side windows. ALthough cold we were dry, no dripping canvas, and we could dress for the cold. It was this boat that really decided us as winter boaters.
But if your situation is different or you have enough money/determination to add real protection on a bridge, Or don't need it, the game changes.
Just be mindfull of your intended use and choose accordingly.
I noted the comments about loose seats. That could be fixed with the installation of a floor mounted lift ring pad, a piece of 1/8" S.S. wire rope and a pelican hook to secure the thing so it cannot topple.
And good luck with your choice. The game is fun and will change regardless of what you choose.
For us we used to kick the frozen lines free of the tie rails, push the snow off in winter. In the side seasons it was heavy rain and I had to change the old, crappy wipers to good ones. A few years we played ice breaker, thankfully, not often and the ice wasn't more than about 3/4" - 1" and i'm guessing somewhat soft. Sure made a funny noise on the hull. Never lost more than paint.
Of course we had lots of sunny, warm weather where the bridge was nice. But we had to account for our already proven willingness/foolishness to go out in crappy weather and we decided we needed a good inside steer station.
We know many folk over the years , that come the end of September, and the cold weather that the boat is essentially put to bed, particularily if they cannot get to a dock. We didn't want that.
Our previous boat was an express cruiser that had a real hardtop and side windows. ALthough cold we were dry, no dripping canvas, and we could dress for the cold. It was this boat that really decided us as winter boaters.
But if your situation is different or you have enough money/determination to add real protection on a bridge, Or don't need it, the game changes.
Just be mindfull of your intended use and choose accordingly.
I noted the comments about loose seats. That could be fixed with the installation of a floor mounted lift ring pad, a piece of 1/8" S.S. wire rope and a pelican hook to secure the thing so it cannot topple.
And good luck with your choice. The game is fun and will change regardless of what you choose.
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