Users' Opinions On Various Makes of Engines Needed

[ScottH]

Hello Everyone. I'll keep this as brief as possible.

My wife and I are shopping for a trawler in the 40 to 44 foot range. We've been boaters our whole lives, but this is a new direction.

Having reliable engines is critical. We don't have thousands of dollars to put into engine overhauls. And good fuel economy is important too.

I've heard lots of comments saying some engines are great, others are to be avoided. It hard to know which comments are accurate and which are not. We don't want to shy away from a boat that might be a great choice just because we've heard negative comments about the brand of engines that it has, when there's really nothing wrong with them.

I'd like to share the comments I've heard with you and see what you think.

Ford Lehman: Pros: Been around for years. Good, simple engines with good fuel economy, not breakdown prone, and last a long time. After-market parts readily available, and reasonably priced. Most mechanics can work on them.
Cons: None

Caterpillar: Same as Ford Lehman

Perkins: Same as Ford Lehman

Detroit: Pros: Been around for ever, After-market parts readily available. Most mechanics can fix them.
Cons: 2 cycle diesels. Run at higher revs than 4-strokes and burn a lot more fuel. More prone to breakdowns, and don't last as long.

Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines.

Volvo: Have heard nothing good about Volvo's. They are very prone to breakdowns, no after-market parts are available, Volvo parts are hard to get, take a long time to arrive, and are extremely expensive. And Volvo mechanics are said to be some of the most expensive out there. Breakdowns are frequent and repair costs are 'outrageous'. Saw an online survey about recommended brands for repowering boats, and 4 out of 5 respondents said Volvos were the worst possible choice you could make.

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.

Also, if you have any thoughts about turbocharged engines vs naturally aspirated, I'd appreciate your comments.

And finally, any opinions on dual engines vs single engines in a trawler would be appreciated.

And there you have it. You can comment here, or shoot me an email directly at BackYardMapleVT@hotmail.com.

Thanks!

 

[gaston]

God bless your search for the Holy Grail may Indiana Jones be your inspiration and guide

 

[Gordon J]

I see too many generalizations to even begin commenting on what you’ve written, but offer some observations. I owned a truck company and bought trucks with cummins, Detroit’s and cats. Based on hard data, that is now 4-5 years old, cummins had best fuel economy of the three listed brands. I saw no differences in maintenance expenses or reliability between the brands.

Only Volvo I have had was on my last boat, which I owned for ten years. Never had.a.single.problem. Not one. So I can’t speak to parts availability or expense.

 

[AusCan]

The best engine is one thats been used often and maintained well.

The brand is much less important. They all made good engines, although every brand had some models that were better than others.

 

[Seevee]

Brands DO make a difference.

First, we cannot compare truck diesels with boat diesels.

And some have great reputations and some don't and everywhere inbetweed.

Personally, I'm a Yanmar fan. Excellent reputation, easy to get parts and service. But I would be opposed to something else provided it had a good reputation also.

Now Volvos... Based on my experience with three Volvo gas engines, I'd be hard pressed to get another, even though there are a lot of good boats with them and some OEMs still putting them in. The BIGGEST problem with Volvo is service. You can't call the factory, or a good rep, so you only have to rely on the local dealer... who could be good or bad.

The other ones look ok for the most part, but I don't have direct experience with them.

 

[Lou_tribal]

Don't forget Acadia engines, the best most exotic rarest most reliable engines, and if you can find one, I will owe you a 6 pack

L

 

[Nomad Willy]

See Vee,
Where do you think “marine engines” come from?

I have a tractor/generator engine in my boat. Ten years of buying oil filters. That’s it. Mitsubishi S4L2. It was marineized by a very reputable company that have been marinizing engines (mostly Isuzu) since the 60’s. They usually don’t do pleasureboat business.

 

[gaston]

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.


HINO A "NO NAME" ?????????????????




This may turn into a Ford V GM thing

 

[Donsan]

Keep in mind the Lehman’s and Perkins and even DDs are going to be found on fairly old boats as are many of the Cats and they can no longer be obtained in new boats. They are not common rail or electronically controlled to meet EPA requirements as are modern engines.

You don’t mention the type of cruising you do but if blue water is involved, you might want a continuous duty engine such as a Lugger or John Deere. Several boaters would have them at the top of their list.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Gaston,
Hino is a Ford truck product.
Don’t know who marineized then. Perhaps the company is named Hino.

lMO who marineizes an engine is as important as the engine.

 

[gaston]

Gaston,
Hino is a Ford truck product.
Don’t know who marineized then. Perhaps the company is named Hino.

lMO who marineizes an engine is as important as the engine.

Isuzu Motors Limited.not Ford

 

[twistedtree]

I think you are mis categorizing a number of things.

The need for specialized tools and training is true for electronically controlled engines and is not brand specific.

When you refer to aftermarket parts, do you mean parts made by a third party vs the engine manufacturer? In my experience, you almost aways have to get the parts through a dealer, but I also don't see it as being any big deal. Prices do vary between manufacturers, but not that much with the possible exception of Volvo.

I agree with adding Lugger and Deere to the list.m you will find them in slower, continuous duty boats, not in high output fast boats.

And detroits really need to b segmented into the older screaming jimmy 2 cycles and the newer 4 cycles. A lot of bigger boats have detroit/MTU 4 cycle engines.

But really any and all of the manufacturer are good, and past maintenance is way more important than brand.

 

[Benthic2]

Hino has been around for a hundred years. It seperated from another company in 1946, and became a subsidiary of Toyota in 2001.

Hino's Milestones | Organization and Facts | About Us | HINO GLOBAL

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. SH. Engines huh?

 

[tiltrider1]

As was stated earlier way to much generalization. Detroit’s are 2cyl but in the right application they can be just as fuel efficient as the next engine. When you consider fuel, parts, labor a DD671 might be the most economical engine for an application unless it’s a 400+hp 671, then it might be a bomb, or it might be a perfect combination of economy and reserve power.

I could go on similarly about each of the engines mentioned above. I wouldn’t walk from any of the engine manufactures mentioned but every one of them makes an engine I would avoid.

 

[sunchaser]

Keep in mind the Lehman’s and Perkins and even DDs are going to be found on fairly old boats as are many of the Cats and they can no longer be obtained in new boats. They are not common rail or electronically controlled to meet EPA requirements as are modern engines.

You don’t mention the type of cruising you do but if blue water is involved, you might want a continuous duty engine such as a Lugger or John Deere. Several boaters would have them at the top of their list.

Perkins is still in business. Parts for newer engines readily available. Marinization done by Sabre.

 

[BandB]

Scott H

For your own protection, please erase everything in your original post from your brain. It was dangerous generalizations and rumors and old sailor's tales from poorly informed boaters.

There are good and bad engines for every brand you mentioned. If you find a boat you like, you're not going to have the choice of ten engine brands.

You talk about "most mechanics can fix them" vs "require special training." I'd say any engine requires training and knowledge on that engine. Cummins is no more difficult to service than others. As to Volvo, someone talks about Volvo gas engines and then we hear "breakdowns are frequent." Volvo is among the most respected in Europe and of all the Volvo diesel owners I know, they've had no worse experience than any other engine and most like their Volvo's.

Hino, no name? Quite a good name actually.

Just a warning about your sources of information. If someone owns a Ford, they're probably going to tell you Chevy's are no good. We all are prejudiced. However, I would not reject a good boat with a well maintained engine based on the brand of that engine. Be careful about mechanics advice too as they like those they work on or know best.

As to turbochargers, it's going to be a matter of the vintage of the engine. Some here who don't have them will tell you how awful they are. I've never had a diesel that wasn't turbocharged and I've been happy.

Then twins vs singles, there are many threads here on it and no right answer. We couldn't possibly know what is best for you not knowing the boat or how you intend to use it.

While there are differences in engines and in marine applications of them, far more important is the condition of the engine and how it's been maintained.

 

[AusCan]

Brands DO make a difference.

First, we cannot compare truck diesels with boat diesels.

And some have great reputations and some don't and everywhere inbetween.

Personally, I'm a Yanmar fan. Excellent reputation, easy to get parts and service. But I would be opposed to something else provided it had a good reputation also.

We can't compare truck diesels to boat diesels because there aren't any boat diesels any more.

There have been a few small purpose built marine diesels in the past such as the the Volvo MD series up until 1984. (It was one of their good engines) Almost all new "marine" diesels are truck, bus, or tractor engines that have been marinized.

Yanmar tries to market their marine engines as "purpose built" and give them a different model number from the tractor engines, but they are still basically the same with a marinizing kit.

I agree that Yanmar have great parts service. That has been Volvo's downfall.

 

[ktdtx]

I don't think you can categorize desirability totally by name brand.
Example:
There is a world of difference between a caterpillar 3208 producing 210 hp vs one producing 435 hp wrt longevity, maintenance, etc.

A lot of difference of opinion between a 300 hp Cummins 6bt and a 300 hp Cummins 555.

Depends a lot on how used and maintained as many have said.

 

[Conrad]

I'll jump in with an endorsement of of Lugger. Our NT came to us later in life with a 350 HP Lugger c/w almost 11,000 hours. Purrs along and don't expect anything major until around the 20,000 hour mark. Mind you, we did a significant service at 11,000 hours.

Here in Campbell River there are a number of places where I can get it serviced, and I don't think we are unusual in that regard. It is based on a Komatsu block which also has local support.

Our previous boat had a Volvo and again we were able to get good service locally and not at outrageous prices.

 

[BruceK]

The OP has to start somewhere and some of the ideas expressed are, imo, not far off the mark. Based on my experience, the experiences of other boat owners I talk to, even things I read on TF.
I second comments Hino is a reputable brand.So are Perkins, but watch for the ones rebranded Volvo. Lehmans are good, but not without fault. I wonder if any engine is completely without fault. Of course maintenance is important, but it won`t turn a pigs ear into a silk purse.
Some of the responses are like those mystery received regarding the Beneteau 44. That`s before he received the apologies.
Hang in there ScottH, there is constructive help embedded.

 

[Insequent]

The OP is looking at a boat size that is kinda interesting. IMO below 40' and its feasible for the average Joe to run a planing hull, even if he mostly runs at trawler speeds. Above 40' and you start getting into significantly heavier boats with relatively high HP engines. Sure you can get these boats to plane but the fuel burn gets horrendous pretty fast. There are exceptions to this as well, such as newer foam-cored hulls. But in older boats I think the first decision is whether you are happy with <10kn or want high teens. If the latter, then specific engine brands, and how hard they have been pushed in terms of HP/litre, can become a factor.

Next is to find a boat that ticks the boxes in regard to layout, number of cabins etc. Then boat condition, and finally what engines does it have? Are there regular maintenance records? Personally I may well baulk at the final hurdle if it had 2 stroke diesels. Or Volvo. But again, it depends on what the engine survey indicated, and the boat price.

You can always factor in a re-power down the track once you have confirmed the boat meets your needs in all other aspects. Again, is it a good price? Know you may never recoup the cost of a re-power. And for the cost of a re-power you will get a many, many years worth of expensive Volvo parts. Still, once done you should have excellent reliability and confidence that you can rely on it for extended trips, or rare and precious holidays if you are still working. That peace of mind is almost priceless. For a boat you know you will keep for many years, its fine to go down the re-power path.

 

[ranger58sb]

I've heard lots of comments saying some engines are great, others are to be avoided. It hard to know which comments are accurate and which are not.

Good that you can do research...

But forget all that for a while.... find a boat you like and that meets your basic requirements, then do research on the engine(s) in question.

There have been some "bad" Cats (the French-built bad block issue), a Volvo can be great when your Volvo tech is just around the corner, old Detroit 2-strokes can be rebuilt/repaired forever, Hino diesels are probably in a boatload of Isuzu and Toyota trucks maybe everywhere but the U.S., turbos and aftercoolers aren't all that big a deal...

And when it comes down to it, fitness for purpose -- and more importantly, the routine maintenance and service (with records) for the specific engine(s) you encounter in the boat you might buy -- are much more important than the brand/model... in most cases.

Concentrate on features you require -- space, layout, systems, etc. -- first, and worry about minor details like propulsion power after you've identified your target boat(s).

IOW, don't shop for engines with a boat attached. Instead, shop for boats... that happen to have engines.

-Chris

 

[boathealer]

Whichever brand has the lowest cost and easiest to find parts, and plenty of folks in your area that work on them. The lowest cost parts and labor will easily offset any small gains in better fuel efficiency, unless you plan to cruise 10,000's of hours per year.

Agree with AusCan in #4.

Specific brands don't mean much, especially as opinions on the "interwebs" are typically from people who have had only one specific incident and then attribute their singular experience to an entire line of engines.

Also ask those same mechanics in your area which engines they PREFER to work on.

 

[FF]

On a used boat the decades of use and maint will be more important than the brand.

And there is seldom much you can do if the PO didnt keep records.

A boat with a decade of oil sample results would show a smart owner ,that probably did service the engine, but there rare.

 

[Nomad Willy]

We can't compare truck diesels to boat diesels because there aren't any boat diesels any more.

There have been a few small purpose built marine diesels in the past such as the the Volvo MD series up until 1984. (It was one of their good engines) Almost all new "marine" diesels are truck, bus, or tractor engines that have been marinized.

Yanmar tries to market their marine engines as "purpose built" and give them a different model number from the tractor engines, but they are still basically the same with a marinizing kit.

I agree that Yanmar have great parts service. That has been Volvo's downfall.

Very well said AusCan, Bruck K, Conrad, Twistedtree and others.
Gaston I’m pleasantly surprised to know Hino’s are Isuzus. As one of my favorites I tried to get an Isuzu for Willy but they didn’t have the right size. I preach not to overpower and I practice what I preach.

As AusCan wrote there are no marine engines. I can produce a list of engines in the 50’s that were actually marine engines. Most all of them had the flywheel on the front of the engine so the engine could be installed as low in the hull as possible. And as many were flat head gas engines very low engine heights were common.

For me I’m still where I was 12 years ago. My Mitsu has been perfect in every way so I’d get another. And I’m sure if I had bought an Isuzu I’d be just as happy. And I’ve never had to buy parts so I probably would have been just as happy w a Volvo.

Regarding rebuilding one rebuild isn’t as another. Rebuilding a DD is almost a bullet proof choice w a reputable shop. Rebuilding others can be an excellent choice if parts are still available and the basic engine design is not laced w hard to justify old technology. Yes I said that. But w my own engine I don’t know any benefits from the engine as a result of it being new. Someone said thinwall block casting is probably one. Maybe some aspect of fuel injection. Metallurgy in valves pistons or cylinder walls ... ?? However one of the reasons I bought it was for the combustion chamber starting heaters. Going to Alaska I wanted every advantage to dependable starting. I even pulled one of the heaters out and checked. It got red hot. However my Yanmar engine started very dependably. And it had no prechamber or heater.

The OP was wise making this post beyond the fact that we needed something to talk about. But what he was actually looking for he’ll be unlikely to find. Few here will mention any common faults in an engine that many have in their boats on TF. All those people would consider it badmouthing and feel attacked. As if they made the engine. Kinda the opposite of asking the dealer of brand C about brand B.

But as others have said the big takaway is that all engines are basically good and the boat and engine history is much more important than engine brand. However if one repowers that’s one history not to be worried about.
And you don’t need a dealer down the street. But the historical ability for engine people to service customers in distant places is golden. Shy away from “airfreight .. oh we don’t do that”.

Whenever someone asks me about buying old boats I tell them to give great preference to the boats w newer engines.

 

[tadhana]

"Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines."

I think these comments pertain to the Tier 3 common rail engines. Routine service including fluids and valve adjustment and aftercooler cleaning can be performed by almost any diesel mechanics and boatyard.

Finding service tech trained on the computer controlled side of the engine is indeed harder. BUT the same problem exists for any of the computer controlled Tier 3 common rail engines including Yanmar, Cat, Lugger and John Deere. It is not unique to Cummins. I ran a boatyard which was a service center for all of those engines. We had techs trained on tier 3 Deeres and Yanmars, but not on Tier 3 Cummins or Cats. We knew better than to try and work on the engines for which our techs were not trained or certified. My own boat was one of the very first Cummins common rail engines to be hit by lightning. I had no certified tech and could not lt my own technicians work. on my own engine.

 

[DavidM]

Let me comment in bold below:

Ford Lehman: Pros: Been around for years. Good, simple engines with good fuel economy, not breakdown prone, and last a long time. After-market parts readily available, and reasonably priced. Most mechanics can work on them. Mostly true. American Diesel is the go to source for info and parts.
Cons: None

Caterpillar: Same as Ford Lehman. The NA 3208 is really the most prevalent Cat engine seen on older trawlers. I would call it about the same as the Lehman.

Perkins: Same as Ford Lehman. The Perkins mani or multi coolers are almost unobtainable and if you can find a new one, very expensive or you have to get a new one fabricated, also expensive.

John Deer/Lugger- You missed this one. Solid, dependable, heavy block, low speed for its power. Used by commercial fishermen a lot.

Detroit: Pros: Been around for ever, After-market parts readily available. Most mechanics can fix them.
Cons: 2 cycle diesels. Run at higher revs than 4-strokes and burn a lot more fuel. More prone to breakdowns, and don't last as long. Burns no more fuel than a Perkins, Lehman or Cummins. Their long lasting hit comes from sport fishermen who run them to the pins. Run them like you would the Lehman and they will last every bit as long.

Cummins: Pros: Been around forever. Good fuel economy. Reliable.
Cons: After-market parts not readily available. Require mechanics with specialized training to fix them. Those mechanics are not always available locally. Labor & mechanics' travel costs can make repairs much.more expensive than for other engines. I beg to differ on all of the cons unless you are talking about the current QSBs. And that comment is applicable to all electronic, common rail engines.

Volvo: Have heard nothing good about Volvo's. They are very prone to breakdowns, no after-market parts are available, Volvo parts are hard to get, take a long time to arrive, and are extremely expensive. And Volvo mechanics are said to be some of the most expensive out there. Breakdowns are frequent and repair costs are 'outrageous'. Saw an online survey about recommended brands for repowering boats, and 4 out of 5 respondents said Volvos were the worst possible choice you could make.

Yanmar: You also missed this one. Generally you only see the smaller JH series Yanmars in the smaller trawlers, but it is as solid an engine as any. The bigger 4LH, 6LP and 6LY Yanmars are all turbo charged and after cooled, but no more problematic than any others of this type.

Hino:. Many Bayliner 45's have them installed. Haven't heard anything about them, good, bad or indifferent. Don't know who makes them. Sceptical of a 'no name' brand.

Also, if you have any thoughts about turbocharged engines vs naturally aspirated, I'd appreciate your comments. There have been volumes posted on this forum on this topic. In very, very summary form- turbo charged engines let you produce high power when you need it. And other than some extra maintenance, no real downside if you don't need it. But if you never need it, stay away- more money, complexity and maintenance.

And finally, any opinions on dual engines vs single engines in a trawler would be appreciated. More than volumes have been written on this topic, maybe more than on anchors. Do a search on this forum. That will give you hours of reading pleasure.

And there you have it. You can comment here, or shoot me an email directly at BackYardMapleVT@hotmail.com.

Thanks!

 

[Airstream345]

I'm a newbie here so I can't speak to the pros and cons of each engine manufacturer. All I can offer is my own, limited experience and opinion as we moved through the selection/elimination/purchase process

As we searched for our "perfect" boat I read what seemed like hundreds of post or blogs either praising or denouncing just about every mfg. For every example of a pro I would also find examples of cons. The only "pattern" I found was that examples seemed to be either from anecdotal failure experience or a strong opinion, sometimes hearsay but never data.

It's like the Ford vs Chevy debate - a religious discussion. I've owned both brands (and others) over the years and both work just fine when managed and maintained.

I think this decision has more to do with your specific use case than anything else. For us, we wanted something simple, DIY ready (I'm fairly handy) and economical (both in running and in maintenance).

Early on I had a preference for Lehman engines, but also looked at boats with Cats and Cummins. I preferred non-turbo and low tech in each case (we decided on a full displacement hull so didn't need extra hp). I also looked more at actual maintenance (documented and apparent) as that said a lot about how the engine was managed during what might be a 30+ year lifespan. I never disqualified an engine mfg up front but would consider it as a factor only after we like the actual boat. For example, early on, we looked at several OA MK1's. One had a Cummins, another had Lehman's and a third was re-powered with JDs (reflected in the price). All things equal I had a preference for the OA with the Lehman's because I felt as if I could perform most of the preventative maintenance and troubleshooting myself.

In the end we landed on a boat that wasn't even on our radar and the fact that it had low hour, well maintained Lehman's just helped to close the deal for us.

The one thing I highly recommend is when you find the boat, pay for a separate engine/mechanical survey. We did and it was invaluable for calibrating what we saw in apparent and documented maintenance matched up with reality. I also got a lot of free advice along with the survey.

In short, find the right boat, then evaluate the installed power plant on their own merit as they sit in the hull.

Good luck with your search

 

[Cigatoo]

A very important consideration is serviceability. Is there a reputable service / parts source close by. Even a “Bad” Engine can be a reliable power plant if you have a knowledgeable service facility/ technician to rely on. There are fixes for most problems engineered into an engine by the OEM. It’s usually just a question of having a technician with the product knowledge, experience, and access to technical service bullitans (TSB’s) to resolve the problem. The damage really occurs when inexperience and ignorance comes into play.