Using the TT35 as a solar-electric trawler

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My plan is to use two Torqeedo 10.0 R outboards that replace the gas outboards on the TT35. I am hoping to bring the first traction battery to Mirage Manufacturing this spring to do a test to see if 7kts at 7000 watts output on one motor is achievable.

Car motors run at 380-420 volts. Anything above 48 volts on a boat is way too much excitement for me. I wish that brave sole luck though.


It looks like the Torqeedo expects to talk to it's battery via CAN. Will it even run if you just hook up a 48V battery, or will you need to emulate whatever the control protocol is over CAN?


And could you test with Mirage with a much smaller and less expensive battery bank?
 
Doing it on a lark? Well maybe. (Have you been talking to my wife?) But I am not a reckless person. I would never attempt to make the trip alone.

There is an organization named slow boat (slowboat.com) which guides a flotilla of five boats from Roche Harbor to Juneau or Sitka each year. They usually take about 30-32 days and do a lot of anchoring and sightseeing along the way. My plan is to qualify to go with such a group.

I reached out to one of the leaders of the slow boat group earlier this year. At first he was quite excited about the project (I think he is an electrical engineer), but I sensed the excitement waned as he calculated how difficult it would be to pull off such a project. However, I think it is doable and I am going to try.

Do I own a boat? Read the first entry and you will see that the only boat I have ever owned is a sea kayak. But I used it well; including a 5 day 175 mile solo trip from WA to Canada. Ironically this is further than any of my friends with sailboats and motor yachts had ever ventured and I loved teasing them about it. I sense that you guys are much, much more adventurous than my friends. Maybe even some circumnavigators.

So no, I don't own a boat. I have a lot to learn and that is why I joined this forum.

My first milepost does not require me to own a boat. The goal is to build the first 60KWh battery, acquire the Torqeedo motor and take them to Gainesville FL, to test on one of Mirage manufacturing's TT35 boats. I need 7kts at 7000 watts. If I can achieve that I will plan for milepost two.

You keep talking about the TT35 like you have one or like you've firmly decided that's the boat for you. I have to advise you to read the history here of purchasers of them but also that it just isn't the right boat for Alaska, not designed for the conditions you'll encounter.

I think your idea of starting with a group is very good.

I don't see in your first post of this thread where you say you've never owned a boat and it sounded to me like you had purchased a TT35.

I also can't imagine transporting one from FL to WA. That will be expensive and it seems you could find other boats in the PNW.
 
It looks like the Torqeedo expects to talk to it's battery via CAN. Will it even run if you just hook up a 48V battery, or will you need to emulate whatever the control protocol is over CAN?

So my BMS (Orion 2) talks CAN, and my charger talks CAN but neither will be talking to the motor. The motor comes with a control unit. I will connect 48 volts to the motor and then use the control unit to turn it on and control it.

Full Disclosure. I don't have a motor yet or a boat to put it on. My experience is in building LiFePO4 battery systems. I have ordered 16 cells for the first string. Once I have built the first string and test how much heat it generates during charge and discharge at 0.25C. Once I know this I will design the case and have a plastic fabricator in SLC build it for me out of polycarbonate. Then I will build the other 3 strings and hopefully do a boat test.

It's early days yet.
 
but also that it just isn't the right boat for Alaska, not designed for the conditions you'll encounter.

OK, help me out here please. Why is the TT35 not good for conditions in Alaska? Does it have something to do with the temperature, or the abundant rainfall, or the sea conditions? This is where I really need help.
 
Scott,
Basically,
Weather
Geography
Very few people and hardly any infrastructure .. no tow US.
Every harbor is busy all summer chocked full of boats.
And did I say weather?

Re weather it can be very nice most all summer w little rain and wind.
Or it can be nasty almost all the time. But if you think a grey day is not a nice day you almost certainly won’t like SE Alaska. Or days here and days there waiting for a weather window. For that you need a certain attitude to just sit in the wind and rain or the sunshine and mosquito’s.
But the weather is usually fairly nice actually. Emphasis on “usually”.
Knowing when to go forth is golden.
 
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But if you think a grey day is not a nice day you almost certainly won’t like SE Alaska.

Sounds a lot like Seattle, where I lived for 22 years.

The other items are important and I appreciate your input.
 
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Nice to see an interesting project, I like what you are trying to do. In the places that run generators for dock power you have to also be prepared for "the generator is broke down today" so no power at the docks until generator parts arrive. I'd recommend having a generator for backup so you are not tied to specific marinas and it would provide more options for you to roam at will on cloudy days. 40hp seems low if you need to deal with bad weather, I'd be nervous if there would be enough HP to hold the bow into the wind when it's blowing 30. I could see scenarios where choppy seas may lift the stern of a TT35 up enough to get the props out of the water. I also could see them getting dunked if you get caught in 4' foot chop. I am pretty sure 6' chop will put them under. The Great Harbor guys could probably tweak the boat for saildrives which would get the props under the boat. Oceanvolt may have something of interest to you Oceanvolt - Clean Electric Power & Propulsion Systems 40hp in nice weather seems fine. 7 knots seems too fast for a 35 foot boat. I am not an engineer but I've been on enough 30 something foot boats to know it takes very little throttle to move along at 5-6 knots and more throttle to get going at 7knots. I think you'll find an optimal speed between 5-6knots.

If you get caught up in thinking you need a long list of features on a boat watch a couple Race to Alaska videos if you need a mental reset, they are out there having fun with not much.
 
I'm curious why the focus on Seattle to Juneau as the mission? As described, I think the mission is just barely viable, and you would only do it once - actually twice because you then need to get home.


To me, a more useful and lasting mission would be to cruise Puget Sound and the Gulf Islands. i think what you have specified could be quite suitable for that, and could be used more than once.


I guess the question is whether the goal is to build a rocket and go to the moon, god damn it, or is the goal to build an electric boat and use it.


As for the underlying boat, I know nothing about Great Harbours other than horrific stories by people having one built. I think it's here on TF if you search. Because of that, they would be low on my list regardless of the boat's characteristics.


It seems you base requirements are:


- Small and light for best range with least power. Note that this is counter to comfort and resilience to bad seas.


- Built for an outboard so you can install the Torqeedo.


- As much living space as possible, given it's a small boat.


I think I'd be looking and ranger tugs, and other "trailerable" trawlers.


Are you thinking you would buy new, perhaps with customizations for your electric power? Like no fuel tank, and use that space for batteries? If so, keep in mind that buying a boat of this type is not an off-the-lot purchase. They are almost all built-to-order with a year or more lead time. And as many have experienced, me included, build times can become much longer than originally promised. My boat is a year late, and if I'm remembering the GH build story correctly, that was very late and then took another year or more to actually make right and workable.


What strategy I'd adopt would depend on the mission as noted earlier. If the mission is more or less a one shot deal to show it can be done, then I think I'd buy a used Ranger tug, pull out the motor and store it, and leave the fuel tank and rigging intact, or in a form where it can all be restored back to the original outboard. That way you could get back to a more salable boat when finished. If the goal were to have a long term usable boat, I would probably still follow a similar course, but be more willing to make changes that would be harder (but never impossible) to reverse. So, for example, I might remove the fuel tank to recover space for batteries, or make other bigger changes. I just think in the end an electric conversion boat will be significantly harder to sell than a conventional boat, so every step of the way I'd be very mindful of the reversibility of any changes.


Also for the initial performance testing of hull+motor, I'd be looking to do that with minimum cost exposure and $$ at risk. So I'd buy a standard Torqeedo & battery pack, bolt it to an example of the desired hull, get my performance data, and proceed from there. If it's a flop, you can sell the motor and minimize you loss.


I definitely wouldn't be investing in even a partial battery pack, unless I had a certain alternate use for those batteries. The battery pack isn't an unknown. The unknown is how much power it will take to effectively operate the boat. That's the big unknown. Once that's determined, the battery pack can be easily designed, and is just a matter of space and money to build.
 
Your technical knowledge far outstrips my ability to assess, but let me offer a couple observations based on 40 years in the PNW and ten years of daily operation of electric cars (I am currently <har!> driving my fourth).

I see no indication in your plan for heating your living spaces. "All electric" seems to be the point, so you will need resistance heating. When I turn on cabin heat in my e-Smart, range drops 30%, and it is only 9' long, probably a twentieth of the interior volume of your TT35.

Your charge calculations seem to be for the propulsion, do I have that right? If you are counting on using both 30 amp outlets on the typical marina pylon, will that require a third for the house batt? I can picture a scenario where marina operators start charging you for lost moorage on adjacent slips.

Your range calculations are based on point-to-point travel, with no excursions, no loitering, no...well...no joy. As Matson Line used to say, "Getting there is half the fun.".

"Range anxiety" is going to suck the fun out of this adventure. I live in a valley where the farthest place I want to drive is 25 miles away. The thought of driving 75 miles in my 80 mile car in the hope that the charger advertised to be at my destination will be working today is unthinkable.

This post is not meant to be a "buzz-kill", I am an electric-propelled guy, and I admire your wish to build and operate this vessel, but we are blessed with many many lovely destinations at 40 to 60 mile range. Enjoy them.
 
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Your technical knowledge far outstrips my ability to assess, but let me offer a couple observations based on 40 years in the PNW and ten years of daily operation of electric cars (I am currently <har!> driving my fourth).

I see no indication in your plan for heating your living spaces. "All electric" seems to be the point, so you will need resistance heating. When I turn on cabin heat in my e-Smart, range drops 30%, and it is only 9' long, probably a twentieth of the interior volume of your TT35.

Your charge calculations seem to be for the propulsion, do I have that right? If you are counting on using both 30 amp outlets on the typical marina pylon, will that require a third? I can picture a scenario where marina operators start charging you for lost moorage on adjacent slips.

Your range calculations are based on point-to-point travel, with no excursions, no loitering, no...well...no joy. As Matson Line used to say, "Getting there is half the fun.".

"Range anxiety" is going to suck the fun out of this adventure. I live in a valley where the farthest place I want to drive is 25 miles away. The thought of driving 75 miles in my 80 mile car in the hope that the charger advertised to be at my destination will be working today is unthinkable.

This post is not meant to be a "buzz-kill", I am an electric-propelled guy, and I admire your wish to build and operate this vessel, but we are blessed with many many lovely destinations at 40 to 60 mile range. Enjoy them.


Excellent points, and reinforces the question about what the mission goals are. If the goal is to prove a point, then who needs heat, just wear a thicker coat. But if the goal is to enjoy boating, then I think a lot needs to be rethought.
 
This project of imagining / designing / specifying a boat to perform a particular trip is fun to consider. Someone else observed above that a catamaran might be a good alternative, which makes sense to me. It would supply a generous platform for solar panels, as well as a maneuverable, easily driven hull with shoal draft for hugging the shore when appropriate. That reminded me of an innovative hybrid-electric cat designed by Reuben Trane, now for sale in the Keys:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2009/island-pilot-dse12m-hybrid-2695424/

As you'll see from the propulsion specs, that boat wasn't intended to travel far. But Trane obviously put a lot of thought into the project, at a time (eleven years ago) when battery technology lagged way behind where it is now, and where it seems headed in the next year or two. Might be worth looking those ideas over . . .
 
https://youtu.be/oYJRwgHEFS0[/QUOTE]


Excellent. "We do these things because they are difficult." And it brings to mind another point.


If this is a "proof-of-concept" project, heading off into the wilderness may be self-defeating. What if no one cares? When you arrive in Juneau, you'll get 90 seconds on the evening news...in Juneau. In Kake, there will be a short conversation at the Value Mart: "Didja see the dumm Gussuk with the boat that only goes 100 miles?" Maybe an article in an engineering journal with a circulation of 5,000 engineers.


OTOH, Anacortes, Friday Harbor, Roche Harbor, Causeway/Victoria, you'll be up-to-here in curious dockwalkers, especially if you hang out a "shingle".


I submit that if Neil Armstrong hadn't had a television camera, the moon landing would have been viewed as a wasteful abuse of the public fisc.
 
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I am just an observer of this thread and have never boated in the waters you are asking questions about, so its interesting to hear other peoples responses. We get a lot of dreamers on here who post about big travels, then disappear after about a year. Keyboard adventurers. One element in your background that you mentioned when you first posted is your long distance kayaking. It’s not a boat, and you have a lot to learn about boat systems, Nav..the list is long, but it takes grit and determination to be a long distance paddler which will definitely help you on a trek like this.
 
Red Rascal,

Thanks so much for the Race to Alaska videos. I enjoyed them thoroughly.
 
I'm curious why the focus on Seattle to Juneau as the mission?

There is something about going north to Alaska that causes grown men to daydream. Not sure what it is. The videos posted above were titled "Race to Alaska". I doubt that the race would be so popular if it was south to San Francisco.

Twenty years ago I was preparing myself to kayak from Seattle to Ketchikan. I was fit enough (I think) and I had covered many of the legs in short trips. But I never pulled the trigger. Now I am 63, so kayaking anywhere is out of the question. Where I once dreamed to go based on brawn I now dream to go based on brains. We will see if I am up to the challenge this time.
 
I think I'd be looking and ranger tugs, and other "trailerable" trawlers.

I have looked at Ranger tugs, and even C Dorys. Both look nice, are a bit smaller (more efficient and tailorable) and are located in the PNW. But where do you put the solar panels?

I want to build a solar-electric boat so that I can cruise the San Juan and Gulf Islands both before and after my trip to Alaska. As I mentioned in the first post, relying on solar in Alaska is iffy, so I need to build an electric boat for that trip. But when not going to Alaska I want a solar-electric boat, and that requires a big flat roof like the one on the TT35.

If my memory still works, the months of July and August are usually very nice in the PNW and I plan to use the 5000 watt array (that can only fit on a TT35) as the primary source of energy for trips in the San Juan Islands.

Here are the calculations.

I used this tool to look up the solar insolation values for Seattle in the months of July and August.

Solar Irradiance - calculate the solar energy available on your site

They are 5.88 and 5.20. Let's estimate 5.5

So with a 5000 watt array I can expect average of 27.5 KWh per day. If 10 KWh is used for house needs (maybe I put the AC back in, through a window maybe?) this would enable me to travel an additional 17 miles per day if the one mile per kilowatt model is correct.

So, with an electron fill at the dock before I leave I could travel 120 + 17x61 = 1157 miles during by 2 months in the San Juan Islands. That seems to be far enough. And if not, there are plenty of docks with 50 amps that can give me a complete recharge overnight.
 
If this is a "proof-of-concept" project, heading off into the wilderness may be self-defeating. What if no one cares?

I care. That is all that matters to me. I won't be contacting any media outlets along the way and I expect that no one will notice anything different about the boat except that it has a crazy big solar array.
 
Some things you won’t find up north;

Docks:
Sure there are docks for ferries and barges. When I was a small boy there were steamships that tied up at the docks. Every summer mom, my sister and I would go to Seattle on a steamboat. On those trips they always missed the rocks w/o anything more electronic than a radio. And the radios were big things that hummed w vacuum tubes. I don’t think they had radar but perhaps. My mother let me wander on the ship horrifying the other mothers. That could be how I became adventurous. I loved the sounds emanating from the ladder down to the engine room. But never descended.
With 23’ tides there are few docks. We don’t “dock our boats”. We tie them to floats usually lined w bullrails. Forget cleats but you’ll prefer rails in too weeks as you can make fast almost anywhere. Not just where cleats happen to be. But when you make fast to a bullrail all Alaskans will know you’re from outside .. slow.

Marina’s:
There are none. Closest thing is the town floats and harbor master. And West Marine ect. is NAPA. But don’t groan. You’ll be very surprised what you can get at NAPA stores. If ypu’ve got Jabsco pumps NAPA has it all. But if you have JohnDeere or Yanmar forget it. Better have spares. One of the main reasons I have a remote belt driven seawater pump is that anywhere in Alaska I’ll find impellers.

And IMO you’ll have a more relaxing and fun time in SE if you tie to town floats and walk up-town. Take your time and look at everything. Don’t try to blend in as an Alaskan. The’ll all know you’re from outside. 95% of the time they can tell from a half-a block away. Forget it and welcome conversation from wherever it comes. Interact w Alaskans whenever you can.

Don’t make a point of “anchoring out” but pick your anchorages re for what’s there. I recommend a 3-1 ratio. A little less anchoring out. It’s all good.
 
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Scott,
See what boats you can find under 32’ that are FD. Albin25, Allweather 26, sailboats and perhaps a Honeymoon 26, Willard 30, Nomad Wanderer or Maple Bay 27. And there are lots of small boats I wouldn’t recommend for SE Alaska. Some lack stability andsome are too wide and inefficient.
 
Take a look at this manufacturer, that makes hybrid production semi displacement boats.

They can do about 30 mi at 5 kts on a full charge, then you need to recharge either via solar or via engine or dock.

https://www.greenlinehybridusa.com/yacht/greenline-33/ (any of their boats, I just picked this one)

They are using Li tech. You can possibly cover another 50% of the boat with solar, but they have quite a bit covered. I don't think without dramatically changing the hull shape you can get 120 mi at 7kts with today's technology. I spoke to them about their 40, which probably has the best range and they do have lots of tech there.

I think if the panels and batteries can double their efficiency over the next decade, you then have what you are asking for.

BTW, under diesel, the batteries recharge in about 2 hours. So if you are doing say 50mi days, which is typical for a trawler (8hrs at 7 kts), with this boat you could currently do the morning under battery power and then the afternoon under diesel and be recharged for the next day, so you could be cruising at 50% electric drive. Not bad.
 
I definitely wouldn't be investing in even a partial battery pack, unless I had a certain alternate use for those batteries

I actually do have an alternative use for the battery pack. I am currently building a house with a 12Kw array. The battery pack will be tied to a Sol-Ark 12k hybrid inverter. This inverter operates with or without batteries attached (most grid-tied inverters don't). So when I am boating the battery is on the boat and the house buys power from Rocky Mountain Power. When I am not boating I get my house electricity from the sun with two days backup.

I could do the boat test with just two strings (30KWh running at 0.25C), but since the batteries will be sitting on the cockpit floor where it may get wet, I need to build a waterproof case. So I will just build the full battery.

I checked with the shipper. The raw cells should be here in three weeks. The first thing to do is to measure the internal resistance and do a capacity check on each cell. Then link them together in parallel and do a top balance. It will take about two weeks to do all of that. I will send pictures if anyone is interested.
 
Scott,


Are you in Logan UT? if so, near perfect climate for solar, certainly much different than what you'll experience on the Coast. While I note that your calculations take that into account, I can tell you from experience the reality of it was startling. Moving from the 39th parallel to the 47th was also a big shift. :blush:

I owned a passive solar house in Carbondale, CO (greenhouse collector, trombe wall, rooftop water heater, PCM cylinders, etc.) When work called me away to WA, I realized just how much I had taken the sun for granted. Be prepared. ;)
This is an August noontime photo in BC
 

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Yes. Logan Utah.

I was born in Logan, raised in California, (attended high school with Steve Jobs) , lived most of my adult life in Seattle, and have retired back in Logan. While living in Seattle (Woodinville actually) I almost forgot there was a sun. I had to move back to the Rocky Mountains to rediscover it. Now I am a retired optical engineer and a solar enthusiast.
 
Hi TwistedTree. I found your quote below on another thread.

Let me first say that I have nothing against electric anything, or alternative anything. I actually have an off-grid solar house, and an all electric (not a Tesla) car. This is just a factual look at the state of the technology with respect to application in a trawler.

Here are some reasons why you won't see battery electric power in a recreational trawler for a long, long time. The issue is less about comparing electric motors to diesel motors, and more about comparing energy stored and carried as diesel fuel vs charge in batteries. Here's why:

- 100 gal of diesel occupies 13 cu ft, and contains 1490 KWh of usable propulsion power after accounting for the burn efficiency of the diesel engine. And at a dock fill rate of 15 gpm, it takes about 7 minutes to refill.

- To store and carry the same amount of usable energy using LiFePO4 batteries which are the current state of the art, occupies 460 cu ft (35 times more space), and using a 50A/240V shore power connection takes 5.75 days to recharge (1250 times longer). The batteries would cost $745,000. Even at an optimistic life span of 3000 cycles, that's a lifetime battery cost of $248 per cycle, or the equivalent of $2.48/ gal of fuel. And that's just the cost of the batteries and does not include the cost of the electricity to charge them each time.

And I think most of us would find a total of 100 gal of fuel pretty limiting. If you go to 500 gal of diesel, you need 2300 cu ft of battery space. That's pretty much the entire interior volume of a 30' boat. And your battery bank now costs $3.7m



Yes, I agree. This is an excellent analysis. The best I have ever seen. And this is why electric is not the future for trawlers. However, one thing has changed since you wrote this, the cost of LiFePO4 batteries.

The sixteen 280Ah cells I purchased cost me $1720 including shipping and customs from china. Add another $1000 for a bms, fuse, contactors, bus bars and extra thermal sensors. And that is for the good stuff (Orion and Blue Seas). This comes to $2720 for 14.5 KWh (I used 52 volts average instead of 48 volts nominal) or $187.50 per KWh instead of the $500 per kWhr as you calculated.

So if you are willing to DIY, (which I think results in a better battery with better components and an expanded knowledge of what happened when things go wrong), you can do it for 1/3 the price.

Still expensive though (and it doesn't change the weight, room, range and fill up time factors, all important points as you mentioned above), but cheap enough to get it to fit within my budget.


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You keep talking about the TT35 like you have one or like you've firmly decided that's the boat for you. I have to advise you to read the history here of purchasers of them..

An excellent point that shouldn't get lost in the more technical discussion here.
 
Since I will usually (except for short legs) only have enough energy to move at displacement speeds, would it make more since to use a full displacement hull rather than a SD hull?

Sorry, I have a lot to learn about boats.
 
Yes, full diplacement hulls are often 50% more efficient than semi displacement or planing hulls at or below displacement speds. The TT35 is one of the latter.

David
 
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