Valise or Canister (Life Raft)

[JLD]

Our next boat will be a small boat and we likely will go with a pair of PLB's (one for my wife and one for me) for cruising. Lots of guys who fish offshore use PLB's because if you are alone and fall off the boat, the boats EPIRB isn't of much use.

Another nice feature of the PLB is that you can also use it off the boat, for example in the mountains where there is no cell phone signal.

Jim

 

[Porgy]

Another nice feature of the PLB is that you can also use it off the boat, for example in the mountains where there is no cell phone signal.

Same here. I take one kayaking and motorcycling and also have descriptions of them listed on our NOAA registration page.

 

[Fletcher500]

I was on an oil tanker in the mid 80's operating in the PNW, just a young kid, first ship. The Chief said hey, did you get your immersion suit? Nope, Oh, we need to get you one of those. Probably different now.

 

[ksanders]

Regarding the type of liferaft...

I believe that as some have stated emergencies happen fast. Sometimes too fast to be dealing with a liferaft that is stowed.

Because of that we chose a canister liferaft and have it out of the way in the cockpit where it is instantly deployable.

We chose not to have it up in a hydrostatic release cradle. Why??? simply because for us being in cold water andf knowing that the hydrostatic release will not operate until it is fully submerged, that means we are already in the water at that point.

As far as survival suits...

We started with gumby suits and then realized that youi are basically useless once you put on the gumby suit. You cannot assist in the rescue, you can barely move.

We chose to go with Mustang cold weather work suits after consulting with our son who worked as a crew member on a USCG motor liferaft. His experience demonstrated thast we need cold protection and the ability to accomplish the real work of emergency evacuation during an emergency.

 

[DDW]

I would not do a hydrostatic release. I'd want to be in the raft by the time the superstructure went 6' under. "Never step down into a liferaft" may be true, but floating in the water trying to guess where the raft it going to shoot up from, and hoping you can swim fast enough in your PFD to overcome it's downwind speed.... not me. I would certainly not keep a valise on deck with no other protection though.

I have a Viking 4 man offshore. Original cost was about $3200 if memory serves. Viking repacked it 4 years later for about $1200. The repack itself is about $800. But they are required to replace any supplies that are expired, and these supplies are very high priced. So if you are considering repacking costs, don't just ask "how much does the repack cost" as you may well be quoted $800. Ask instead "how much is the typical repack invoice?"

BTW, this valise 4 man raft weighs 75 lbs, I can move it about but it isn't all that easy, and for sure the wife isn't going to move it.

I don't have a liferaft on the trawler. I expect to be near shore (within 50 miles say) and would climb into the dinghy and set off the Epirb and/or Inreach. Near shore in the civilized world the SAR capability is probably more reliable than a liferaft. And you are going to need the Epirb anyway, even in the raft.

 

[rsn48]

The suits are a no go for many with boats 35 feet (maybe 37 feet) because of storage.

Here’s what I’ve learned over the course of decades pissing away money on something I’ve yet to use.

A man after my own heart, I too have spent much on the would a, could a, should a. I too looked at life rafts. The one I almost bought, a snow storm saved me, had to get away from the boat show quickly in 2019 because of a storm that the media was predicting resulting in ferry shut downs. For locals, that was the storm that did all that damage at Horseshoe Bay.

Here is my decision process. I asked myself what kind of boating would I be doing in terms of open ocean and coastal. I decided about 99.8 % of my boating would be coastal. Where would I be in the open - the jump from northern Vancouver Island to SE Alaska (some of it is coastal). Would I ever be making this jump, maybe and maybe not.

Since my boating would be coastal, I decided not to go with a raft and instead rely on my dinghy even though I know a raft in really horrible conditions would be better. Instead I put more of a reliance on communications, VHF with distress calling, one radio is stationary and the other a full featured handheld with distress calling and GPS. The handheld is only for dinghy use and goes in a box with safety gear for the dinghy. I also have a SPOT unit as I am nervous with only relying on VHF. Does VHF punch through in Toba or Bute Inlet, I don't know but if I had to bet, the answer would be "no, " Hence the reason for SPOT.

I think we make choices and some are compromises. Technically should we wear lifejackets all the time? Yes, but do we - no. We ASS_U_ME that we can get to the jackets in time and not fumble with putting them on because in reality we haven't used them that much. On BC Ferries would it be safer if every passenger wore a life jacket all the time - yes - but it is never going to happen.

 

[markbarendt]

What a lot of Safety at Sea graduates say is "hard to don"... true.


But being the guy who has plucked may a boater out of the drink and debriefed survivors....the vast majority already had gumby suits on long before the idea to abandon ship was implemented.


I too am often torn by one or the other argument...that's because there is a lot going for either product and a lot going against both. A frame of reference (like exactly your boat and how you use it and where you use it) is what actually tips the balance.

Being in the survival suit early is good, it’s early use though is dictated by activities with significant inherent risk in the situation at hand.

While I’m all in on wearing appropriate PFDs, PLBs, and sun protection, even a lanyard, the point of my boat is to have a movable home that I can park in fun places, to laze around, fish, and swim off in retirement.

 

[psneeld]

Being in the survival suit early is good, it’s early use though is dictated by activities with significant inherent risk in the situation at hand.

While I’m all in on wearing appropriate PFDs, PLBs, and sun protection, even a lanyard, the point of my boat is to have a movable home that I can park in fun places, to laze around, fish, and swim off in retirement.

Didn't you start off by asking about liferafts?


In my experience with water survival, "survival" suits...whatever the flavor.... are really mini life rafts but with better thermal protection. Sure, not always appropriate to have onboard...but I bring them up for the valuable thinking one does when even just considering the suggestion .....whether you buy them or a liferaft.


I don't really understand what your post is saying or referencing.


I do know that a floating "moveable home" can be a watery grave without attention to a few things at least.


So what really is your question then?

 

[Portage_Bay]

At least two posts up thread about having to wait for the boat to sink to automatically open the hydrostatic release. I have yet to see / use a hydrostatic release that didn't have a manual quick release. The ones I'm familiar with are easier to use than the release on a ratchet strap. If you purchased a hydrostatic release without a quick release it is simple to rig one. The raft is held in the cradle by a strap, fixed on one side, hydrostatic release on the other side. Put a quick release in the strap at a convenient point.

The purpose of the hydrostatic release is to free the raft in the event that the boat sinks out from under you faster than you can manually release and deploy the raft. The proper protocol is to make the emergency call, get everyone ready, launch the raft, pull on the painter to inflate it and get ready to board the raft. Stay with the big boat until you are forced to leave.

If you are going to purchase a raft get some training. And practice. The misunderstanding about hydrostatic releases is a good example of why training is needed to correctly use survival gear.

There was a suggestion above to visit the servicer at re-pack time to see the raft inflated. Get in. Familiarize yourself with where everything is. Envision yourself getting into the raft from the water should you have to, it's not easy.

I'll relate a personal story. I sailed professionally for decades. I was usually one of the competent, strong ones who aided the others in training and drills. Then about the time I turned 60 I got some new crew, very green, not much training. We sent them to Basic Safety Training at a school that deploys the training raft in cold water. The engineer and I decided to go as well though we weren't required to. We all don our immersion suits, jump in, swim to an overturned raft and board the raft. While I used to be the one who helped get the smaller, weaker persons aboard this time I needed the help. Upper body strength just isn't what is used to be. Many of here on TF are getting older and not as strong as we once thought we were. It was a real eye opener.

Life raft, inflatable dingy. No matter your choice. Deploy it early in an emergency. It's much easier to step in from the big boat.

The same goes for immersion suits. Yes, it's possible to put one on in the water. I've done it, in a warm swimming pool. I can't imagine doing it at night, in rough water, in cold water.

 

[markbarendt]

Didn't you start off by asking about liferafts?


In my experience with water survival, "survival" suits...whatever the flavor.... are really mini life rafts but with better thermal protection. Sure, not always appropriate to have onboard...but I bring them up for the valuable thinking one does when even just considering the suggestion .....whether you buy them or a liferaft.


I don't really understand what your post is saying or referencing.


I do know that a floating "moveable home" can be a watery grave without attention to a few things at least.


So what really is your question then?

Ah, the perils of thread drift.

Your thoughts are good. I really do want to be safe out there, heck I’ve spent the last 2 1/2 months sorting out the electrical system and plumbing on my boat to avoid nasty problems at sea.

When I started this thread I really was just trying to figure out whether to just go soft sided or hard sided on the liferaft. But the drift in this thread gave me more to think about, I’m figuring out what the realities for me really are.

Right now, after this discussion, I’m no longer sold on the idea that I really even need a life raft.

The path rsn48 took seems much more practical and safe in my situation.

From a systematic POV having one’s failsafes be things you use on a daily basis is really good, even if they aren’t the ‘best tools’ in an emergency at least you’re not struggling with rarely used tools.

 

[markbarendt]

At least two posts up thread about having to wait for the boat to sink to automatically open the hydrostatic release. I have yet to see / use a hydrostatic release that didn't have a manual quick release. The ones I'm familiar with are easier to use than the release on a ratchet strap. If you purchased a hydrostatic release without a quick release it is simple to rig one. The raft is held in the cradle by a strap, fixed on one side, hydrostatic release on the other side. Put a quick release in the strap at a convenient point.

The purpose of the hydrostatic release is to free the raft in the event that the boat sinks out from under you faster than you can manually release and deploy the raft. The proper protocol is to make the emergency call, get everyone ready, launch the raft, pull on the painter to inflate it and get ready to board the raft. Stay with the big boat until you are forced to leave.

If you are going to purchase a raft get some training. And practice. The misunderstanding about hydrostatic releases is a good example of why training is needed to correctly use survival gear.

There was a suggestion above to visit the servicer at re-pack time to see the raft inflated. Get in. Familiarize yourself with where everything is. Envision yourself getting into the raft from the water should you have to, it's not easy.

I'll relate a personal story. I sailed professionally for decades. I was usually one of the competent, strong ones who aided the others in training and drills. Then about the time I turned 60 I got some new crew, very green, not much training. We sent them to Basic Safety Training at a school that deploys the training raft in cold water. The engineer and I decided to go as well though we weren't required to. We all don our immersion suits, jump in, swim to an overturned raft and board the raft. While I used to be the one who helped get the smaller, weaker persons aboard this time I needed the help. Upper body strength just isn't what is used to be. Many of here on TF are getting older and not as strong as we once thought we were. It was a real eye opener.

Life raft, inflatable dingy. No matter your choice. Deploy it early in an emergency. It's much easier to step in from the big boat.

The same goes for immersion suits. Yes, it's possible to put one on in the water. I've done it, in a warm swimming pool. I can't imagine doing it at night, in rough water, in cold water.

Couple years ago my wife and I went to the BVIs for a week to get our bareboat certificates. At “The Baths” you moor your dinghy and swim in, when you are done you swim back out and have to get back in the dinghy.

As you have suggested age has work on us and getting into the dinghy turned into a real struggle.

We bought a True Kit dinghy to solve that problem, the design allows the bow to be pulled down to water level for entry. https://truekit.nz/

I’m thinking about adding a special ditch bag with epirb and such instead of buying a raft.

 

[Fletcher500]

MB, sounds like you are formulating some good plans.

I have also thought about a canister type life raft in the past, but figured the other precautions we take work for us and what we are doing. Interesting to hear about the re-pack deal, did not know that.

I have a PLB (just changed the battery out last week), a comprehensive ditch bag that I am constantly adding to, VHF with DSC, and we periodically tow a large dinghy behind us, or a smaller one up top, or sometimes no Dink.

Everyone in my family has a wetsuit on board and they are not buried in the Laz, but ready to go if needed when we are traveling offshore. I spent most of my life wearing wetsuits for surfing, diving, and other water sports, and it is amazing how much warmth even a 3 mm wetsuit will provide.

I also bought a dry suit awhile back for my wife and I, but it has been in my garage ever since. If we end up traveling to the higher northern latitudes, I would bring these.

Safe Travels.

 

[mvweebles]

To meet SOLAS requirements, a survival suit must be able to be donned in under 2 minutes, including any additional garments. Crew on commercial fishing boats are required to practice this from time to time. A survival suit extends survival time by close to 24 hours. Since most rescues arw within 24 hours, that's a really good thing. Some suits are made to not unduly restrict mobility and can be work while working on deck, albeit compromised.

As far as life rafts, Hippocampus has some great guidance. There are different types of raft depending on intended usage. I can only add that the choice of hard case or valise is well down the list of criteria. Available space and placement will often lead you to one or the other, not either.

Suggest reading Adlard Coles and Dashew on storm tactics and make your decision accordingly. You have to decide what events you are trying to protect against. Storm damage (steering failure being the most common) means heavy weather in cold water will render all but the best life rafts useless, let alone a dinghy as proxy.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

A PLB recently did its job in Northern Australian waters, solo sailor washed overboard was located and rescued following the PLB signal. The cat left onboard was rescued later when the boat was located.
Query the regular "repack", costing around 50% of the initial cost. Presuming the container is unopened, the contents should be as packed, so it means something else. Testing, replacing consumables, checking ???

 

[psneeld]

Nothing guarantees survival...but I attended a speaker who was a commercial fisherman in Alaska with an impressive tale.

He survived 3 days in the north Pacific (floating in a gumby suit, no raft) till he washed up on an island. I think he survived another 4 days on a snow covered island till rescued.


The story made me rethink a lot of what I read over the years from all kinds of sources. It also confirmed a lot of what I learned in the USCG while on a project team rethinking all of our cold water survival gear. That plus independent study of survival and 4 military survival schools taught me a lot of valuable info.

 

[DDW]

Query the regular "repack", costing around 50% of the initial cost. Presuming the container is unopened, the contents should be as packed, so it means something else. Testing, replacing consumables, checking ???

Replacing consumables. There are food supplies, medical supplies, batteries for the flashing lights, etc. While this stuff might cost $30 at the supermarket, that isn't what they use. And at least the factory authorized repacker won't use anything else. A cynic would call it a razor and razor blade ploy (the modern equivalent is a printer and ink cartridges) it is what it is if you want a legitimate repack.

 

[markbarendt]

MB, sounds like you are formulating some good plans.

I have also thought about a canister type life raft in the past, but figured the other precautions we take work for us and what we are doing. Interesting to hear about the re-pack deal, did not know that.

I have a PLB (just changed the battery out last week), a comprehensive ditch bag that I am constantly adding to, VHF with DSC, and we periodically tow a large dinghy behind us, or a smaller one up top, or sometimes no Dink.

Everyone in my family has a wetsuit on board and they are not buried in the Laz, but ready to go if needed when we are traveling offshore. I spent most of my life wearing wetsuits for surfing, diving, and other water sports, and it is amazing how much warmth even a 3 mm wetsuit will provide.

I also bought a dry suit awhile back for my wife and I, but it has been in my garage ever since. If we end up traveling to the higher northern latitudes, I would bring these.

Safe Travels.

I used to use a dry top when white water river kayaking. Nice for staying warm but the gaskets can get obnoxious.

I think the wetsuit idea is great, need those anyway for other chores.

 

[Hippocampus]

Still falling off the boat is likely as common a scenario as sinking. In this situation a AIS based personal device is more likely to result in a recovery than gps. Many of these events don’t occur in heavy weather. I know what people do depends on the setting.
On calm days when coastal but in New England waters water temperatures are commonly quite low. Especially in the spring or late fall. I believe that’s also true for North American pacific waters from my few attempts to go swimming in Washington, Oregon and northern cal. However, I don’t bop around in a Mustang although it there on the boat. Hypothermia not drowning is the real threat. There’s also fair risk of shock death from cardiac arrhythmia immediately from cold water immersion. So immediate rescue is imperative. Although we practice MOB drills and carry a MOM-8 reality is having a dot on your MFD to go to means you’re much more likely to find that person and faster. That’s coastal and within the 200nm helicopter range Rescue by your own boat rather than SAR is so much faster that as stated above virtually all ocean racing sailboats have incorporated personal AIS for their crew.
In the tropics SAR is sketchy at best. Not uncommonly a volunteer service with limited resources. Again AIS not gps is more likely to result in a successful rescue.
Personal GPS usually has half the battery life of the ships epirb. Yes, most rescues occur within 24hours but some don’t. So if I get into a raft I’m going to NOT set off the PLBs. Rather I’m going to set off the big one. At 48h if the battery is shot on that one then I’ll set off one of the PLBs and work my way through them as needed.
We have PBls and AIS. They serve different functions. All our devices are registered with the feds. They’re small and easy to wear or slip into a pocket.

 

[Hippocampus]

I spend time fishing, on power and sail and note my behavior concerning safety is very different as is that of others on the boat. Jacklines, tethers and harnesses on sail, commonly nothing when fishing or just a PFD. All over the place on power depending on coastal v near/offshore.
Still we’re human and usually don’t tether if day sailing on a nice day and would never put on a immersion suit for close coastal trolling for stripers. Maybe a float coat but that’s it. So think valise v canister isn’t the issue. Think what’s the issue is to really think about what’s the relative risk for how you use your boat. Fire, sinking, power loss. Then if like most you don’t have endless deep pockets spend your money accordingly on things you actually will use and will practice using. How many manually blow up their PFDs and wait 16 hours to see if they leak and do it at least annually? How many routinely deploy the test function on their gps devices? How many run through a MOB, fire and sinking drill periodically or give instructions to new folks on the boat? The posters here likely do but what about the general boating public?

 

[mvweebles]

Decent Sail Magazine article on liferafts, including a section on canister vs valise.

https://www.sailmagazine.com/gear/how-to-choose-a-liferaft

Stay dry!

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Can't say about the rest of the world's boating public or even the whole USA....but a large chunk of the USA.....


No they are much more lax in the safety arena...most of the general boating public doesn't have PLBs/EPIRBs, inflatable PFDs, nor mustangs....they don't run drills, they don't have briefings...and on and on.


But then again, they never go more than 25-50 miles from home or offshore. Many have professionals go over their boat at least on occasion. They have never sunk or caught fire or gone overboard. They may not even know anyone who has.


Forums tend to focus on worst case scenarios. People tend to give their worst case scenario dream or the one in a million that as happened to them or a close person to them. Problems are magnified greatly. Sure dying when you go to sea is always a possibility...but much less probable (due to frequency) than a bad car accident.


If you routinely go offeshore, or fish the deep several times a week every week, are a professional etc...etc... you probably take some things more seriously.


I have been exposed to just about every boating experience one can have due to 35 years responding to people in those situations from minor to deadly. While I take my life seriously....I still understand the difference in probability and severity using risk management and most of all....budgeting priorities due to shallow pockets.

 

[Hippocampus]

Yup. That’s the real deal. Especially liked his comment that if you boat in cold water get a offshore raft even if you’re never offshore.

 

[Porgy]

We’ve not been able to attend our repacking ceremony for our raft. However, whenever we go to the Annapolis boat show we always spend quite a bit of time looking over the displayed model like ours. We see what’s in it, where things are, how it is set up, etc. and joke how we’ve spent thousands on something that looks like this but will likely never actually see.

 

[psneeld]

I would hope that people who need that much information on liferafts, have the experience to already know it.


That way they also know the situations that may happen that may require all the suggestions/possibilities, plus knowing what do do as the events unfold before they need a liferaft.


So I really hope all these "infomercials" in today's boating magazines really show the boating public 2 things....what they already know and it's a nice confirmation or what they don't know and and still need to experience up before venturing forth.


Any survival expert knows and teaches the right thing...it's usually not equipment that will ultimately save your life (well, maybe in some instances).... it's you and your brain, and knowledge and cool that will.


Nothing wrong with dreams and pursuing them...just realize how the risk management scales tip to the bad side as you eliminate certain amounts of knowledge and experience.


Or just realize you are already dead and just enjoying overtime.

 

[Mark Laurnen]

I conducted the same exploration. Canister contained rafts are vulnerable to theft, do actually get weathered as the canisters do drain but are not waterproof, and require periodic replacement of the hydrostatic release. Valise rafts are portable boat to boat, they are theft and weather protected, cheaper. I started with a 6 person Offshore Viking valise raft ... very reassuring but far to heavy for my wife to deploy in an emergency, about 75 lbs. I tried to have it repacked into a canister, but Viking wanted $1200 for an empty box and going non-factory would void the 12 year warranty. I fish offshore, but never with more than four aboard. Sold the Viking and replaced it with a Revere Costal Elite. Price went up but, very compact at 45 lbs., inflatable floor for the cold PNW waters, a superior fabric which is lighter but with much greater lifespan. I wouldn’t rule out either, but a canister application is pretty permanent. There has been excellent information in this thread ... maybe renting for a season would make sense to define your preferences.

 

[Pdxstriper]

OK my $0.02 worth:
When I was younger I would help anyone who asked to run their boat up the coast from Oregon to San Juans/Canadian Gulf Islands. So I owned a valise which allowed me to take it on any boat I ran with (most had no life raft). Now that I am older and the thrill of coastal cruising has diminished I have a hard case life raft with self-deploy capability mounted on my boat and always will.
Pete

 

[Caballero II]

Will note personal locator beacons are becoming the de rigor for attachment on harnesses on ocean going sail as they allow MOB by the boat. But many SAR organizations can’t monitor them. If you’re coastal would check with your local SAR if they have that capability. Otherwise get a personal epirb rather than a PLB.

Or rather I think, both. I am coming to the conclusion that a PLB gets you connected to the boat you were on nearly instantly, making saving your life much more likely if the boat is still viable and somebody there can respond, an SAR device (personal epirb) gets you on the SAR "radar", which means they're coming from somewhere but maybe not in time to save you but maybe in time to recover your body.

I realize this all means boat bucks, but I don't think right now it's a one or the other. At least not for me and my girl. At least until we can get a more unified response to the two systems.

 

[markbarendt]

Or rather I think, both. I am coming to the conclusion that a PLB gets you connected to the boat you were on nearly instantly, making saving your life much more likely if the boat is still viable and somebody there can respond, an SAR device (personal epirb) gets you on the SAR "radar", which means they're coming from somewhere but maybe not in time to save you but maybe in time to recover your body.

I realize this all means boat bucks, but I don't think right now it's a one or the other. At least not for me and my girl. At least until we can get a more unified response to the two systems.

It is a disappointment that you can’t have both on the same device. I don’t see any technical reasons why they couldn’t be combined.

 

[Porgy]

Or rather I think, both. I am coming to the conclusion that a PLB gets you connected to the boat you were on nearly instantly, making saving your life much more likely if the boat is still viable and somebody there can respond, an SAR device (personal epirb) gets you on the SAR "radar", which means they're coming from somewhere but maybe not in time to save you but maybe in time to recover your body

Once again, a PLB is the same as an EPIRB except for size and battery life. I’ve not read anywhere including NOAA who registers them, call it “an SAR device (personal epirb)” If you’re referring to a personal AIS device, it should be called that.

There’s no question that a personal AIS could assist in a MOB quicker than a PLB but they are intended for two different emergency situations. It’s not either/or. It’s what tools do you use to address myriad different scenarios, of course weighed against the likelihood of them occurring.

 

[Porgy]

It is a disappointment that you can’t have both on the same device. I don’t see any technical reasons why they couldn’t be combined.

If you’re an electronics engineer with transceivers (I’m not) we’re all ears. This subject has come up before and admittedly it’s been a few years since I’ve last read about it. So maybe technology has improved.

But, what had been discussed was that you would need two separate transmitters, antennae and battery packs for each function to operate as intended. Maybe it’s physically possible to create such a device but it likely wouldn’t be any smaller than two separate devices, possibly more expensive and the market for those whose emergency management scenarios desiring a combined device is possibly small. I think I’d rather have separates anyway. If one fails and needs to be sent for service I still have the other.