Verticle Windlass on a MS 400

[Newtrawlerowner]

I installed a new Lewmar V3, vertical windlass with rope drum several years ago. I had a chain/rope rode combination and it seemed to work OK. I just purchased an all chain rode and seem to have an issue with the chain getting jammed on the gypsy. It only seems to happen occasionally. I did match the the gypsy to the chain so I know that is not my problem. When I purchased the boat the PO had a different style windlass installed. After seeing the one I have now on many MS 400 I decided to go with the V3, chain/rope unit.
Here are my questions.
1. I understand from my research that chain deflection can be as much as 10 degrees. I am in the process of raising the windlass about 1/2" to lower that deflection. Does this sound correct?
2. The second issue is the chain rubs on the fiberglass deck as it leaves the gypsy. I'll post a picture soon. I was thinking of installing a nylon rub strip to prevent damage to the fiberglass. What have others done to address this?

 

[fgarriso]

I would cut out a SS plate.

 

[Dougcole]

A stainless plate would be super nice, but the surface the chain rubs on is curved, so you would have to have it custom made which would likely be expensive. I cut a sacrificial piece of PVC board and screwed it down. There is no core in the deck there, so no need to pot the screw holes. The PVC rub plate is hidden by the hatch over the windlass, so you don't see it.

It gets chewed up pretty quickly, but it's very cheap and easy to replace.

I think raising the windlass a bit would be a good idea. My chain twists as it comes in, maybe raising the windlass would help with that.

 

[fgarriso]

Switch to Au plate. That should bend to fit the curve.

 

[Dougcole]

Here’s what I did.

 

[Bmarler]

You’re probably on the right track raising the windlass. The less deflection the better.
I assume you have watched it come in and aren’t having an issue with twist.

 

[Shrew]

That locker looks like it was better suited for a horizontal windlass.

 

[sailorskip]

I put a piece of starboard on the horizontal deck portion. Works great; easily replaceable if necessary.

 

[Comodave]

Starboard or HDMW plastic. High Density Molecular Weight is really tough and pretty slippery. It may be tougher to bend but with heat you could probably get it bent and it should last better.

 

[Bmarler]

You’re probably on the right track raising the windlass. The less deflection the better.
I assume you have watched it come in and aren’t having an issue with twist.

I gotta learn to slow down when I read. I see in the original post that twist is an issue. Does the bow roller have a chain groove in it? It’s very helpful with twist. My old roller didn’t have one, and the chain would slip a link and twist. Since changing the roller that’s all stopped.

 

[luna]

I gotta learn to slow down when I read. I see in the original post that twist is an issue. Does the bow roller have a chain groove in it? It’s very helpful with twist. My old roller didn’t have one, and the chain would slip a link and twist. Since changing the roller that’s all stopped.

I have reading comprehension issues plus I'm just not that smart, but having reread this thread more than once I think you need to slow down some more.

The Original Poster Newtrawlerowner in Post #1 (& a singlular post to date on this issue) noted that the chain jambs, raise the windless 1/2" and add a skid plate.
No mention of twisting.

Dougcole in post #3 said PVC rub plate works and the chain twists as it comes in.

I had issues with chain twist that was caused by the chain flopping 90º at the bow roller upon retrieval when the bow could not follow the chain path on the bottom quick enough and the chain was being pulled about 30º angle from dead ahead.

My fix was to, prior to the start of the retrieval process, back up gently.

This points the bow at the anchor, straightened the chain so that it wasn't in some randomly curved line resting on the bottom and in benign conditions the chain's catenary starts the boat moving in the direction of the anchor without turning a prop.

All you need to do then is bring aboard the chain in a manner to maintain boat speed and direction and the chain comes aboard without a twist.

Like many things, it only works most of the time.

 

[Dougcole]

I have reading comprehension issues plus I'm just not that smart, but having reread this thread more than once I think you need to slow down some more.

The Original Poster Newtrawlerowner in Post #1 (& a singlular post to date on this issue) noted that the chain jambs, raise the windless 1/2" and add a skid plate.
No mention of twisting.

Dougcole in post #3 said PVC rub plate works and the chain twists as it comes in.

I had issues with chain twist that was caused by the chain flopping 90º at the bow roller upon retrieval when the bow could not follow the chain path on the bottom quick enough and the chain was being pulled about 30º angle from dead ahead.

My fix was to, prior to the start of the retrieval process, back up gently.

This points the bow at the anchor, straightened the chain so that it wasn't in some randomly curved line resting on the bottom and in benign conditions the chain's catenary starts the boat moving in the direction of the anchor without turning a prop.

All you need to do then is bring aboard the chain in a manner to maintain boat speed and direction and the chain comes aboard without a twist.

Like many things, it only works most of the time.

Yes, my chain twists on retrieval, i bet NTO’s does too. The original mainship roller (or at least the one they put on my boat) was not grooved. I switched it for a grooved roller, which helped, then added a Mantus swivel, which helped even more. I think the angle of the windlass to the roller is part of the culprit, but there are other factors as well.

I have a combo rode with 70’ of chain and 200’ of 8 strand brait, which I love but I think it allows some chain twist. I also anchor a lot in strong reversing currents, so the boat spins. It’s managable now, but prior to the grooved roller and the swivel it was a bear.

Interesting method of retrieval, I will give it a try.

 

[Bmarler]

I have reading comprehension issues plus I'm just not that smart, but having reread this thread more than once I think you need to slow down some more.

The Original Poster Newtrawlerowner in Post #1 (& a singlular post to date on this issue) noted that the chain jambs, raise the windless 1/2" and add a skid plate.
No mention of twisting.

Dougcole in post #3 said PVC rub plate works and the chain twists as it comes in.

I had issues with chain twist that was caused by the chain flopping 90º at the bow roller upon retrieval when the bow could not follow the chain path on the bottom quick enough and the chain was being pulled about 30º angle from dead ahead.

My fix was to, prior to the start of the retrieval process, back up gently.

This points the bow at the anchor, straightened the chain so that it wasn't in some randomly curved line resting on the bottom and in benign conditions the chain's catenary starts the boat moving in the direction of the anchor without turning a prop.

All you need to do then is bring aboard the chain in a manner to maintain boat speed and direction and the chain comes aboard without a twist.

Like many things, it only works most of the time.

Lol, I was in fact confusing the two different posters.
I always stretch out the chain prior to bringing in my anchor. Still had twist, My issue was a badly designed bow roller, and the angle from the chain wheel was too acute. I made a new roller setup that pushed the roller forward and included the chain groove in the lead roller. Huge improvement in performance. The greater distance lessened the angle, and the groove in the roller seems helpful as well.

 

[luna]

I have often though I should change my 2 given middle names to confused and typo, but I just don't have the guts for that!

If you think about this you should come to the conclusion that provided your chain does not jump/twist at the chainwheel, the only other place on deck to induce a twist is for the chain to rotate at the bow roller. A straight ahead chain retrieval should eliminate this tendency to rotate.

You don't really care if the chain is twisted between the bow roller and the seabed (provided its not twisted to the point of it becoming hockled, that would be an unusually busy night) as this twist will resolve even without a swivel when the anchor leaves the seabed.

I run 400' of chain with no swivel and have a straight lead into the chainwheel. When I laid the chain into the locker I ensured it was not twisted and the last chain link was orientated to accept the anchor in the proper position for stowage.

If I encounter chain rotation at the bow roller and the resulting twist I will remove the twist once the anchor is just below the surface. Even then, its a grunt to lift the anchor to untwist the chain, but I'm happy to say I still have all my digits.
I have also removed the twist by waiting during retrieval for the boat to be in a position that I can induce a chain rotation in the opposite direction. If I'm successful, magic the twist is gone with no effort.

Good to see that your modifications improved your retrieval experiences.

Running a combination rode (chain and rope) adds uncertainty as you have no idea if the rope is in the correct rotational orientation in the chainwheel, but once you get to the chain if retrieval is straight you should not have a twist. You will need a swivel however, as your anchor will appear about half the time upside down unless you can lead the chain into the chainwheel in the proper rotational orientation.

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

I gotta learn to slow down when I read. I see in the original post that twist is an issue. Does the bow roller have a chain groove in it? It’s very helpful with twist. My old roller didn’t have one, and the chain would slip a link and twist. Since changing the roller that’s all stopped.

Would you post a picture of the roller you are talking about? Thank you.

 

[davidla]

I have the V2 windlass and the only issue I have is the chain piles up in the anchor locker, thus preventing more chain from entering. This causes a jam, but the admiral is up there in a flash to "range the cable" as we used to say in the Navy...

 

[Bmarler]

Would you post a picture of the roller you are talking about? Thank you.

Here’s a link to a similar one: https://www.absolutemarine.co.nz/bow-roller-with-chain-groove-black

It’s too cold and dark for me to snap a pic of mine, but it’s similar in shape to this one. Mine is bronze and quite heavy.
The idea is that every other link nests in the groove to help eliminate twisting. It really made a difference on my setup.

 

[Bacchus]

Steve Cyr's Stella Blue website is a great resource for MS 400 owners.
He has a write up of a recommended bow roller on his site.
https://scyr.org/stellablue/index.php

 

[Bmarler]

Ok, I see the post for rollers, and another for the locker. The grooved roller I’m using more closely resembles the w40.
That one is out on the end of my roller frame. There’s a w50 about 14 inches closer to the windlass. So far, so good.

 

[garmstro55]

Steve Cyr's Stella Blue website is a great resource for MS 400 owners.
He has a write up of a recommended bow roller on his site.
https://scyr.org/stellablue/index.php

Hi Don,

Stella Blue site is a great resource, but I worry that some day the site will be closed down. Is there any way to capture the best stuff somehow in case Mr. Cyr decides to stop paying to keep his site alive?