Wanted to introduce myself and my new boat
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Chris Foster
Senior Member
Well, there are three factors that have to go into the decision to replace/overhaul something prior to failure.
The first has been mentioned:* when is a particular part/assembly/thing getting to the point in its life where the probability of its failure has started to climb.
The second hasn't:* what are the consequences of a failure of that part.* A genset failure might be nothing more than a PITA if you're out for a long weekend.* If you're doing an ocean crossing and relying on it to run a watermaker and a fridge that's carrying two weeks of your food, it might be a bigger deal.*
But in either case, the raw water feed hose from the strainer to the engine is gonna ruin your days if it fails.* So you'd never consider waiting for it to start leaking before replacing it.
And the third?* What's the real cost of replacing the part pre-failure as opposed to replacing it when it fails.* For a non-marine example:* I replace car & truck batteries every 5 years regardless.* It's usually no more than a PITA to have to get a jump when the battery goes tango-uniform.* But you're losing, at most, 20% of the potential value of the battery (assuming it lasts 6 years instead of 5), and you may well be in a situation where you have can't shop around for a new battery and may even have to pay to have it installed because of the circumstances.
Aviation is big on pre-emptive overhaul and replacement.* Engines have to be overhauled at a manufacturer's prescibed time-between-overhaul ("TBO"), for example (note to nit-pickers: yes, I know that part 91 operators are not legally bound to TBO, and some other operators with prescribed maintenace programs can extend their TBOs).* But*since equipment failures in aircraft frequently result in bad*outcomes, it's just a cost of*operating the aircraft.
Of course, I'm my own worst example.* Lots of things on this boat that I know really oughta be repaired/replaced/overhauled.* But being well into my second year of unemployment has put a pretty major*crimp on the boat maintenance budget.* Sigh.*
The first has been mentioned:* when is a particular part/assembly/thing getting to the point in its life where the probability of its failure has started to climb.
The second hasn't:* what are the consequences of a failure of that part.* A genset failure might be nothing more than a PITA if you're out for a long weekend.* If you're doing an ocean crossing and relying on it to run a watermaker and a fridge that's carrying two weeks of your food, it might be a bigger deal.*
But in either case, the raw water feed hose from the strainer to the engine is gonna ruin your days if it fails.* So you'd never consider waiting for it to start leaking before replacing it.
And the third?* What's the real cost of replacing the part pre-failure as opposed to replacing it when it fails.* For a non-marine example:* I replace car & truck batteries every 5 years regardless.* It's usually no more than a PITA to have to get a jump when the battery goes tango-uniform.* But you're losing, at most, 20% of the potential value of the battery (assuming it lasts 6 years instead of 5), and you may well be in a situation where you have can't shop around for a new battery and may even have to pay to have it installed because of the circumstances.
Aviation is big on pre-emptive overhaul and replacement.* Engines have to be overhauled at a manufacturer's prescibed time-between-overhaul ("TBO"), for example (note to nit-pickers: yes, I know that part 91 operators are not legally bound to TBO, and some other operators with prescribed maintenace programs can extend their TBOs).* But*since equipment failures in aircraft frequently result in bad*outcomes, it's just a cost of*operating the aircraft.
Of course, I'm my own worst example.* Lots of things on this boat that I know really oughta be repaired/replaced/overhauled.* But being well into my second year of unemployment has put a pretty major*crimp on the boat maintenance budget.* Sigh.*
Which is the whole point here.* There is armchair theory--- replace everything that might possibly fail long before it fails or even shows signs of maybe thinking about failing--- or the reality that 99.999 percent of boaters adhere to which is replace components that are known to have a fairly specific service life--- flexible impellers, pump and alternator drive belts, oil and transmission fluid heat exchangers, and so on before this service interval is up--- and leave everything else alone until they show signs of starting to fail, excessive wear, no longer work exactly as advertised, or actually do fail.
I have no problem with FF's list either, as a matter of theory.* But theory is not based on the realities of budget, other expenses that crop up for most people that take priority over boat stuff, and so on.* So the reality is, a person buys a used boat, has it checked out by hull and engine surveyors, corrects whatever deficiencies they call out as needing to be done, fixes, services, maintains, or replaces other stuff that looks or acts suspicious, and starts using the boat.* From then on we perform preventative maintenance and deal with things as they arise.
*
Marc1
Veteran Member
But Martin, please look at your reply. You are mixing the issues here.
If a to do list for someone else's boat is branded excessive it can not be on the basis of budget unless the owner of the boat discloses his own budget in detail. [and I am not proposing you do mister OK?]
We are merging in the realm of philosophical convictions here. What is "excessive"?
I use to run personal development courses and had people in my group mentioning many times how they thought someone earning 150,000 a year was "obscene".
I wonder what they would say if I told them that my wife alone was making that in a quarter?* Stoning comes to mind.
I find each of the proposed fix in Fred's list perfectly normal and actually cheap insurance. But I can not impose my point of view and my criteria of what is cheap or expensive because such would be rude. Similarly someone else here may think the boat's engine had it and re-powering is the way to go and he may see this as a good idea and cheap at say... 30,000 dollars? yet I may disagree.
The only possible debate when talking about maintenance is technical. Mainly how long does a water pump last, how many hours between injector services, how many hours between oil and filter, how often to re tighten the heads bolts, how long does a flexible joint in a dry exhaust lasts, and so on and so forth. What are the risk of failure, which spares to keep on board according to the journey ahead etc. So if someone would say I ahve to replace the head gasket once a year, everyone would agree that such is excessive for sure. And not because of the cost involved.
Budgetary issues come into consideration when the boat needs so much work and parts to keep it going that it costs more than replacing it. And even then sometimes people bring into the debate another values that no one had considered like emotional attachment and keep on fixing it.
Any mention of "I can not afford that just now" starts with the first person "I" and that is not me nor you.
YET ... each part that is not replaced when it's average life span is up, goes to the list of the time bombs. So you now have a few different time bomb on your boat. You can choose to keep the bombs and stay close to port in case you need to go home rowing.
Yet not to mention what needs to be replaced and dismisses it as "too expensive" or unnecessary would be wrong and a true betrayal. As I said before all we can do is suggest a comprehensive list. It is up to the owner to decide which one can be done and which one has to wait. Perhaps as a second step someone may want to help evaluate the risk of each of those choices.
-- Edited by Marc1 on Tuesday 13th of October 2009 03:43:52 AM
Marc---
I don't disagree with your statement. But it's a matter of degree. The problem I have is when someone says they are thinking about buying such-and-such a type of boat to use in coastal-type cruising and what sort of problems should they be on the lookout for, and they are told that they should peform an extensive list of replacements that would be suitable, perhaps, for someone who wants to head out across the Pacific but is way over the top for most coastal cruisers. To tell the fellow who's looking at a used GB or Bayliner or whatever that he should change the engine mounts, change all the pumps, have the transmission(s) rebuilt or replaced, change out the shaft log, cutless bearings etc., etc, etc as soon as he acquires the boat is ridiculous in my opinion and may even discourage the fellow from getting into this kind of boating at all.
This is not the same as telling a potential boat buyer to ignore problems or not perform routine or preventative maintenance. But they should be realistic about it. Now if they WANT to change out every piece of equipment on the boat when they buy it, fine, there's nothing wrong with dong this. But to make it sound like extensive replacements, overhauls, and upgrades should be mandatory regardless of what you're buying or how you're going to use it is not providing any sort of meaningful answer to the fellow posing the question. That's what I mean by "armchair theory" vs. "reality."
I don't disagree with your statement. But it's a matter of degree. The problem I have is when someone says they are thinking about buying such-and-such a type of boat to use in coastal-type cruising and what sort of problems should they be on the lookout for, and they are told that they should peform an extensive list of replacements that would be suitable, perhaps, for someone who wants to head out across the Pacific but is way over the top for most coastal cruisers. To tell the fellow who's looking at a used GB or Bayliner or whatever that he should change the engine mounts, change all the pumps, have the transmission(s) rebuilt or replaced, change out the shaft log, cutless bearings etc., etc, etc as soon as he acquires the boat is ridiculous in my opinion and may even discourage the fellow from getting into this kind of boating at all.
This is not the same as telling a potential boat buyer to ignore problems or not perform routine or preventative maintenance. But they should be realistic about it. Now if they WANT to change out every piece of equipment on the boat when they buy it, fine, there's nothing wrong with dong this. But to make it sound like extensive replacements, overhauls, and upgrades should be mandatory regardless of what you're buying or how you're going to use it is not providing any sort of meaningful answer to the fellow posing the question. That's what I mean by "armchair theory" vs. "reality."
Marc1
Veteran Member
I agree, so lets go over the list shall we?
Pull an oil sample on the engine & tranny and hope for the best.
I find the above a basic requirement hoepfully already done by the Surveyor if he is worth anything at all. Anyone buying earthmoving equipment does this as routine and some websites offer it as part of the information on the machine.
First I would yank the injectors and send them out for testing ($5.00ea) and rebuild those that are poor.
Cheap and sound advise, plus gets the owner dirty and familiar with the engine. He may screw up and get a line leaking, need to replace some washers. Good practice.
I would have a wrench perform a compression/ blowdown test and also see how much leakage into the oil sump there is.
Compression test is not expensive and needs to be done by a mechanic. It tells you how much life left in your engine or if a broken ring has carved a groove in one of the cylinders. I would like to know too. A bit of money well spent.
Torque the head , and check every engine bolt you can reach.
When this is easy if you have the specs of your engine and the proper wrench, it needs some experience. You could overdo it and stip a bolt, depending on the engine. Get the mechanic to do it when he does the compression test.
Next* would be to get 2 part** cooling system cleaner (Truck place) and follow the instructions, as who knows weather real diesel antifreez and ONLY distilled water were used?
To clean the cooling system is as cheap and as basic as it gets. Anyone that owns a car would be familair with some aspects of this operation. Coolant and distilled water are as cheep as chips.
When the cooling system was clean, I would lift the engine and use a good grade of modern isolation mounts , remove any ceramic seals and their dangerous bellows and water supply requirements.
The modern Duramax or equal would handle shaft sealing .
This is something the new owner may not feel he can do himself. Yet if someone has ceramic seals he should be told he has a time bomb aboard. How much can this cost if done professionally? Would the need to change seals discourage someone from owning a boat? I should hope not!
I would then replace every hose and belt on the engine , and any Jabsco style impellers and at least install a new thermostat , a new block water pump if going out in the briney blue.
Replace every hose and belt on the enigne. Very good advise and cheap insurance. When I worked on maintenance on large industrail genset we changed all rubber every 2 years without fail. We never lost an engine due to a busted cooling hose.
Cheap repair and anyone can do it.
Thermostat and water pump are in the same league. I am surprised at how many people think thermostat are only replaced when they fail. How much does a thermostat cost? $10? $20? Water pumps wear out, yet no one notices until they stop spinning. I can guarantee they will not do that in port but at the worst possible time. Again, may be a bit involved to change depending on engine and location and engine room, yet if you buy old you don't know, may be you have the original pump with 3000 hours on it.
Should there be rubber impellers I would fit a proper metal* Y style strainer to catch any future lost rubber as it leaves the water pump..
I confess I have never seen a Y style strainer but if they can catch the pieces of rubber from an impeller before they get stuck in the heat exchanger, then I want to fit not one but two of this little fellows. How much do they cost?
Then I would get a good brand of DIESEL antifreez and only distilled water and re fill the cooling system.
Oops I though I had done that before? May be I keep some spare antifreez and water mixed ready to use aboard. Cost $30.
Adjust the valves per mfg specs.
If you know what you are doing, by all means do it yourself for nil money. If not, get the mechanic to do it when he does the compression test and the heads bolts. Ask for a quote, this are extremely basic routine procedures that any apprendice mechanic can do satisfactory.
And a HOT oil and filter change would be done , IF a HOT change is a hassle to do , install a method that makes it a snap.
Oil and filter change? Not a luxury in my book!* Would you run the old oil and filter if you buy a used boat even if they told you it was changed "lst week"? Not for a minute!
I would add something to this. Use a sump flush every time you change your oil and filter. Flushing your engine oil removes the sludge and varnish and your engine will work much cooler and lubricate much better for it. There are several propetary products around, yet I only know the one availalbe in Australia, namely Nulon and CEM. I found Winn to be rather average. Don't believe a word of the old wife tales about sump flush being bad for your engine.
Under engine valve , if you can reach , or installed oil waste pump and bucket.
If you dont have a pump to empty the sump, how are you going to do it? I can figure myself with a flat pan full of oil tripping over and making a mess. The lack of a comfortable method to empty the sump in istelf may not be crucial, yet not changing the oil because you can be bothered doing it because it is a pin may be a problem.
Again...how much is a hand pump? I think I saw some on e-bay !!!!!!!!!
OK
That's all for the dreaded list.
Oil analysis should be done already and provided with interpretation of results.
One visit from the mechanic. I'll venture if you are in Florida he will probably overcharge you $500.
The rest you can do yourself in your own time for little money.*
Changing the ceramic seals if you have them is another matter and may cost a bit to do yet not doing it at whatever it costs to do, is foolishness.
My opinion of course but the above is pure comon sense and is only part of what needs to be done on a boat. A small part I must say.
-- Edited by Marc1 on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 12:52:20 AM
Pull an oil sample on the engine & tranny and hope for the best.
I find the above a basic requirement hoepfully already done by the Surveyor if he is worth anything at all. Anyone buying earthmoving equipment does this as routine and some websites offer it as part of the information on the machine.
First I would yank the injectors and send them out for testing ($5.00ea) and rebuild those that are poor.
Cheap and sound advise, plus gets the owner dirty and familiar with the engine. He may screw up and get a line leaking, need to replace some washers. Good practice.
I would have a wrench perform a compression/ blowdown test and also see how much leakage into the oil sump there is.
Compression test is not expensive and needs to be done by a mechanic. It tells you how much life left in your engine or if a broken ring has carved a groove in one of the cylinders. I would like to know too. A bit of money well spent.
Torque the head , and check every engine bolt you can reach.
When this is easy if you have the specs of your engine and the proper wrench, it needs some experience. You could overdo it and stip a bolt, depending on the engine. Get the mechanic to do it when he does the compression test.
Next* would be to get 2 part** cooling system cleaner (Truck place) and follow the instructions, as who knows weather real diesel antifreez and ONLY distilled water were used?
To clean the cooling system is as cheap and as basic as it gets. Anyone that owns a car would be familair with some aspects of this operation. Coolant and distilled water are as cheep as chips.
When the cooling system was clean, I would lift the engine and use a good grade of modern isolation mounts , remove any ceramic seals and their dangerous bellows and water supply requirements.
The modern Duramax or equal would handle shaft sealing .
This is something the new owner may not feel he can do himself. Yet if someone has ceramic seals he should be told he has a time bomb aboard. How much can this cost if done professionally? Would the need to change seals discourage someone from owning a boat? I should hope not!
I would then replace every hose and belt on the engine , and any Jabsco style impellers and at least install a new thermostat , a new block water pump if going out in the briney blue.
Replace every hose and belt on the enigne. Very good advise and cheap insurance. When I worked on maintenance on large industrail genset we changed all rubber every 2 years without fail. We never lost an engine due to a busted cooling hose.
Cheap repair and anyone can do it.
Thermostat and water pump are in the same league. I am surprised at how many people think thermostat are only replaced when they fail. How much does a thermostat cost? $10? $20? Water pumps wear out, yet no one notices until they stop spinning. I can guarantee they will not do that in port but at the worst possible time. Again, may be a bit involved to change depending on engine and location and engine room, yet if you buy old you don't know, may be you have the original pump with 3000 hours on it.
Should there be rubber impellers I would fit a proper metal* Y style strainer to catch any future lost rubber as it leaves the water pump..
I confess I have never seen a Y style strainer but if they can catch the pieces of rubber from an impeller before they get stuck in the heat exchanger, then I want to fit not one but two of this little fellows. How much do they cost?
Then I would get a good brand of DIESEL antifreez and only distilled water and re fill the cooling system.
Oops I though I had done that before? May be I keep some spare antifreez and water mixed ready to use aboard. Cost $30.
Adjust the valves per mfg specs.
If you know what you are doing, by all means do it yourself for nil money. If not, get the mechanic to do it when he does the compression test and the heads bolts. Ask for a quote, this are extremely basic routine procedures that any apprendice mechanic can do satisfactory.
And a HOT oil and filter change would be done , IF a HOT change is a hassle to do , install a method that makes it a snap.
Oil and filter change? Not a luxury in my book!* Would you run the old oil and filter if you buy a used boat even if they told you it was changed "lst week"? Not for a minute!
I would add something to this. Use a sump flush every time you change your oil and filter. Flushing your engine oil removes the sludge and varnish and your engine will work much cooler and lubricate much better for it. There are several propetary products around, yet I only know the one availalbe in Australia, namely Nulon and CEM. I found Winn to be rather average. Don't believe a word of the old wife tales about sump flush being bad for your engine.
Under engine valve , if you can reach , or installed oil waste pump and bucket.
If you dont have a pump to empty the sump, how are you going to do it? I can figure myself with a flat pan full of oil tripping over and making a mess. The lack of a comfortable method to empty the sump in istelf may not be crucial, yet not changing the oil because you can be bothered doing it because it is a pin may be a problem.
Again...how much is a hand pump? I think I saw some on e-bay !!!!!!!!!
OK
That's all for the dreaded list.
Oil analysis should be done already and provided with interpretation of results.
One visit from the mechanic. I'll venture if you are in Florida he will probably overcharge you $500.
The rest you can do yourself in your own time for little money.*
Changing the ceramic seals if you have them is another matter and may cost a bit to do yet not doing it at whatever it costs to do, is foolishness.
My opinion of course but the above is pure comon sense and is only part of what needs to be done on a boat. A small part I must say.
-- Edited by Marc1 on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 12:52:20 AM
Your analysis of the list is great but it all depends on the nature of the boat. On an old GB36 twin like ours there is only one size and kind of engine mount that will work due to the lack of clearance under the cabin sole and these are the kind the factory installed when the boat was manufactured. Sp if the mounts are okay, leave them. If they have collapsed, replace them with the same kind of mount. If you don't have an early GB36 twin, then there may be some value in upgrading the mounts if there is an upgraded mount that fits correctly.
On a Ford Lehman 120 the manual is very specific about NOT re-torquing the head bolts except on the turbo model, which I have yet to see in a boat. (I mean the FL120 turbo, not the later model Lehmans with turbos). So that's an item you should not do if you buy a boat with one or two FL120s in it.
I've not encountered a boat with ceramic seals (I assume we're talking the shaft log/packing gland here?) but I can see the logic of changing them if the boat you buy has them.
Changing the coolant is a good idea unless you find this has recently been done using the correct kind of coolant. Distilled water may be a requirement in some parts of the world but it isn't here--- owners and diesel shops alike all use regular tap water. Even the electrical shops in this area use tap water in batteries, something I won't do.
Changing the oil and filters upon acquiring the boat is a good idea of course. And if one has an FL120, changing the injector pump oil at the same time is smart.
I've yet to meet a diesel mechanic who recommends doing a compression test right off the bat unless the engine is showing signs of having problems in this area. Same thing with automatically pulling and overhauling injectors. The surveyors and mechanics here check the engine while it's running by loosening the injector line of each injector in turn and listening for any changes. If there isn't a change, by all means find and fix the problem. If there is and every other aspect of the engine's operation is normal for that type of engine-- smoke, sound, full throttle, idle, etc.--- they all say leave the injectors alone.
Water pump and thermostat? Again, the advice I hear from mechanics and surveyors is to leave them be if they're working. Carrying spares is certainly prudent.
Change all the hoses? Depends on what shape they're in. Our boat had mostly brand new hoses on it when we bought it. Seemed kind of stupid to change them when they were only a couple of months old.
And so on......* It's just common sense, something I'm becoming convinced more and more people have less and less of.
I know a fellow who changes the impellers in his raw water pumps (engines and generator) religiously every three months no matter how much he uses or doesn't use his boat. Granted, the chances of his suffering an impeller failure are pretty low, but in reality what he's ended up with is a pile of perfectly serviceable impellers that his friends buy for for a dollar apiece and run in their boats for a couple of years. It puts this guy in his comfort zone so that's fine, but it's not a particularly sensible practice although I'm sure the impeller manufacturers wish we were all like him.
-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 01:16:33 AM
On a Ford Lehman 120 the manual is very specific about NOT re-torquing the head bolts except on the turbo model, which I have yet to see in a boat. (I mean the FL120 turbo, not the later model Lehmans with turbos). So that's an item you should not do if you buy a boat with one or two FL120s in it.
I've not encountered a boat with ceramic seals (I assume we're talking the shaft log/packing gland here?) but I can see the logic of changing them if the boat you buy has them.
Changing the coolant is a good idea unless you find this has recently been done using the correct kind of coolant. Distilled water may be a requirement in some parts of the world but it isn't here--- owners and diesel shops alike all use regular tap water. Even the electrical shops in this area use tap water in batteries, something I won't do.
Changing the oil and filters upon acquiring the boat is a good idea of course. And if one has an FL120, changing the injector pump oil at the same time is smart.
I've yet to meet a diesel mechanic who recommends doing a compression test right off the bat unless the engine is showing signs of having problems in this area. Same thing with automatically pulling and overhauling injectors. The surveyors and mechanics here check the engine while it's running by loosening the injector line of each injector in turn and listening for any changes. If there isn't a change, by all means find and fix the problem. If there is and every other aspect of the engine's operation is normal for that type of engine-- smoke, sound, full throttle, idle, etc.--- they all say leave the injectors alone.
Water pump and thermostat? Again, the advice I hear from mechanics and surveyors is to leave them be if they're working. Carrying spares is certainly prudent.
Change all the hoses? Depends on what shape they're in. Our boat had mostly brand new hoses on it when we bought it. Seemed kind of stupid to change them when they were only a couple of months old.
And so on......* It's just common sense, something I'm becoming convinced more and more people have less and less of.
I know a fellow who changes the impellers in his raw water pumps (engines and generator) religiously every three months no matter how much he uses or doesn't use his boat. Granted, the chances of his suffering an impeller failure are pretty low, but in reality what he's ended up with is a pile of perfectly serviceable impellers that his friends buy for for a dollar apiece and run in their boats for a couple of years. It puts this guy in his comfort zone so that's fine, but it's not a particularly sensible practice although I'm sure the impeller manufacturers wish we were all like him.
-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 14th of October 2009 01:16:33 AM
OP
OP
captmorgan23
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2009
- Messages
- 36
Ceramic seals? What exactly are we talking about here? The actual stuffing box, where the flax or teflon packing is being referred to as a ceramic seal, or a seal and ?bellows? that are separate from the stuffing box. I actually started another thread on stuffing boxes, so hoping someone will clear up the ceramic seal confusion in my head.
Thanks all
MP
Thanks all
MP
