water tanks Helmsman 38E. Cold weather storage preperation

[capran]

I know it's a ways off, but anyone in northern climates that keep their boat on the hard, what do you do with your water tanks. Since there is no owners manual with diagrams wondering if there is a way to entirely empty both water tanks and hot water heater for winter storage on the hard. My understanding of the tanks is that they are fed by the same in hose and as you fill, one tank sort of spills into the other, rather than two separate tanks. the question is: is there a way to empty both tanks and lines to the pump? Have no idea how many dozens of gallons of rv anti freeze would take to prevent freezing.

 

[Fletcher500]

I can't help with winterization questions. Yes, the tank deck fill supplies both tanks directly. There are iso valves for each tank suction. The only way to drain the tanks is via the water pump through open faucets within the boat. The boat comes with 1 pump, but I have a secondary as a back up and fresh water wash down connection.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

You will need to empty the fresh water tanks using your fresh water pump through one or more faucets. Then drain the hot water heater with the bottom drain. Your bilge pump should take care of that water. Once the water system is as empty as you can get it, add a gallon or two of pink RV antifreeze to each tank. Use your fresh water pump to move some freeze into the hot water heater until you see pink stuff coming out of the water heater drain. Shut the pump off and bypass the water heater so that all water plumbing is carrying only cold water from the tanks. Now, run the pump to move the pink stuff throughout the entire water system, including showers, sinks and toilets. Once you see pink stuff come out of the last outlet, you are done. I only add enough antifreeze to do the job, the tanks don’t need to have anything left in them.

 

[capran]

You will need to empty the fresh water tanks using your fresh water pump through one or more faucets. Then drain the hot water heater with the bottom drain. Your bilge pump should take care of that water. Once the water system is as empty as you can get it, add a gallon or two of pink RV antifreeze to each tank. Use your fresh water pump to move some freeze into the hot water heater until you see pink stuff coming out of the water heater drain. Shut the pump off and bypass the water heater so that all water plumbing is carrying only cold water from the tanks. Now, run the pump to move the pink stuff throughout the entire water system, including showers, sinks and toilets. Once you see pink stuff come out of the last outlet, you are done. I only add enough antifreeze to do the job, the tanks don’t need to have anything left in them.

That's what I did with my two tanks on the sailboat I owned for last 22 years. But unfortunately, this boat has only one fill and at some undisclosed location there is some sort of a cross over where when one tank is full or near full, the water then goes to the other tank, so no way to isolate or feed RV fluid into each tank separately. pretty messed up way to build a boat. the prior owner said as he fills the tanks he has to slow the water fill otherwise it spills out at the fill site even though the water is slowly moving to from the tank being filled to the tank less full. And, of course, there are no diagrams or boat manuals that show where these connections are made. was hoping to figure out a way to 100% empty every bit of water aboard, both in tanks as well as in lines.

 

[capran]

I can't help with winterization questions. Yes, the tank deck fill supplies both tanks directly. There are iso valves for each tank suction. The only way to drain the tanks is via the water pump through open faucets within the boat. The boat comes with 1 pump, but I have a secondary as a back up and fresh water wash down connection.

WOW. Beautifully done. can you tell me the model number of the pumps. I at least want to keep a spare and the current water pump is out of production.

 

[CharlieO.]

I really want to try to avoid putting antifreeze into my fresh water system end of this season. We don’t use a ton of water but it has taken us awhile to get it all flushed out of our system. The marina winterized our new to us boat and it was easiest for them to flood everything with antifreeze. I plan on running my tanks dry, disconnect the hose from the pump, disassemble the pump and hook my vacuum pump to both the pump and tanks to get any residual water out. Do the same to the hot water heater too.

 

[capran]

I really want to try to avoid putting antifreeze into my fresh water system end of this season. We don’t use a ton of water but it has taken us awhile to get it all flushed out of our system. The marina winterized our new to us boat and it was easiest for them to flood everything with antifreeze. I plan on running my tanks dry, disconnect the hose from the pump, disassemble the pump and hook my vacuum pump to both the pump and tanks to get any residual water out. Do the same to the hot water heater too.

I was hoping I could get some tricks to do just that. Surely there must be a Helmsman 38 owner that has figured it out. If I just understood the fresh water tank hidden connections and had a diagram of the tanks and water system. Are the tank bottom below the level of the pump? In my Catalina 34 the bow tank was below the level of the pump, so easy to get it all drained, but the aft tank bottom was below the pump. very frustrating that there is no published manual.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Mine is Hull #3 and has only one water tank. 80 gallons at the aft end of the generator engine room. Where are the two tanks on newer versions? And why two pumps?

 

[capran]

Mine is Hull #3 and has only one water tank. 80 gallons at the aft end of the generator engine room. Where are the two tanks on newer versions? And why two pumps?

I am told hull number 9 is one fill, two tanks total of 140 gallons but they are somehow linked. The PO says at some point when filling he must reduce the volume of water going into the single fill hole because somehow the water movement from the one being filled to the one attached slows down. And it makes no sense to have 2 tanks but only one gauge! We've only filled once and didn't overfill, but in less than a week our goal is to head out for several months, so we'll fill as best we can. Maybe someone will be able to articulate what the design looks like and where to access the tanks, although they are probably like the holding tank and even when the paint is removed they are not transparent. a second pump would make it ready in case the main went out

 

[rslifkin]

If you're confident you can avoid any puddles in low spots in the system, there's nothing wrong with winterizing by removing all of the water. Personally, I don't trust that I won't get a wet spot, so I just bypass the water heater and run antifreeze through everything else. Then flush a few hundred gallons of water through in the spring to get rid of the antifreeze.

 

[Fletcher500]

WOW. Beautifully done. can you tell me the model number of the pumps. I at least want to keep a spare and the current water pump is out of production.

Morning, its a Marco UP6/E model. Our pumps age in dog years because we use them a lot. I had one of them apart a couple months ago and the PTFE helical pump gear teeth were in very good shape.

 

[capran]

If you're confident you can avoid any puddles in low spots in the system, there's nothing wrong with winterizing by removing all of the water. Personally, I don't trust that I won't get a wet spot, so I just bypass the water heater and run antifreeze through everything else. Then flush a few hundred gallons of water through in the spring to get rid of the antifreeze.

That's what we've been doing for 21 years on our catalina 34 but was hoping a helmsman owner has a strategy to avoid it, especially since the water level in the tanks shares a line, and not sure if it might take dozens of gallons of RV antifreeze to even get it to that point.

 

[rslifkin]

That's what we've been doing for 21 years on our catalina 34 but was hoping a helmsman owner has a strategy to avoid it, especially since the water level in the tanks shares a line, and not sure if it might take dozens of gallons of RV antifreeze to even get it to that point.

It might be possible to just drain the tanks completely and hook up a temporary feed to the selection manifold or pump input from a container of antifreeze. That way you can antifreeze the lines without feeding it through the tanks.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Where are those two tanks on the newer 38s?

And on a related subject, is the water heater still to port in the lazarette? And are the house batteries to starboard in the lazarette?

 

[sunchaser]

Post #3 is the best way to winterize a somewhat complicated fresh water system on a Helmsman. Elbows, faucets, check valved pumps, valves, ice makers, low spots etc are unfortunate freeze points. The non toxic pink purpose made antifreeze works well on literally millions of applications every winter.

The hassle, cost and aggravation of dealing with an improperly winterized oops can take the fun out of the next cruising season.

 

[capran]

It might be possible to just drain the tanks completely and hook up a temporary feed to the selection manifold or pump input from a container of antifreeze. That way you can antifreeze the lines without feeding it through the tanks.

That's a possibility if I can make sure tanks and water heater are empty and that there are no hidden lines lower than the area I am working on, but that's the issue. How to trace the in and out lines and know for certain I'm not leaving water in them to freeze.

 

[capran]

Post #3 is the best way to winterize a somewhat complicated fresh water system on a Helmsman. Elbows, faucets, check valved pumps, valves, ice makers, low spots etc are unfortunate freeze points. The non toxic pink purpose made antifreeze works well on literally millions of applications every winter.

The hassle, cost and aggravation of dealing with an improperly winterized oops can take the fun out of the next cruising season.

That's why I am so preoccupied with finding out what the connection between the two tanks is. somehow, when one is filling through the single fill line, at some point it transfers to the other tank, yet there is only one sensor. Makes no sense and is a very poor design.

 

[capran]

Where are those two tanks on the newer 38s?

And on a related subject, is the water heater still to port in the lazarette? And are the house batteries to starboard in the lazarette?

in this 2008, the water heater is to port under the floor of the main living area. Several people have referred to the cockpit floor locker as the Lazarette, so I am still trying to understand the terminology. Are there 2 lazarettes, one under the cockpit floor and one under the dinette seating/table area? and the batteries are right in the centerline of the boat, under the dinette flooring, almost at the doorway.

 

[Datenight]

It might be possible to just drain the tanks completely and hook up a temporary feed to the selection manifold or pump input from a container of antifreeze. That way you can antifreeze the lines without feeding it through the tanks.

This valve (self installed) is after the water tank. Once the tank is drained I close the valve at the tank. Next, I run a hose from the top of the valve to a fitting in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Bucket is filled with anti freeze, the pump pulls it through the system. The water heater is bypassed.

I have a single water tank with a drain at the bottom. A week or do before winter haul I drain the tank and leave the valve open so boat movement helps empty the tank. Have never added anti freeze to the tank or water heater.

The five gallon bucket has adaptors so I can attach it directly to the strainers for engine, generator and air conditioning strainers. Makes winterizing much easier. I can't find the pictures of the bucket in action. Will take some more this week if anyone is interested.

Rob

 

[HeadedToTexas]

in this 2008, the water heater is to port under the floor of the main living area. Several people have referred to the cockpit floor locker as the Lazarette, so I am still trying to understand the terminology. Are there 2 lazarettes, one under the cockpit floor and one under the dinette seating/table area? and the batteries are right in the centerline of the boat, under the dinette flooring, almost at the doorway.

Since virtually all of our water use is forward, my plan is to relocate the water heater from the port side of the lazarette to the space just forward of the work bench in the main engine room. Putting the heater closer to the use points saves water by shortening the waiting time for the flow to get hot. It also puts the heater in a far more serviceable location.

By convention, the locker beneath the cockpit is called a lazarette. Since only the thinnest of humans could wiggle through the constriction between the main engine and the generator, I refer to those spaces as the main engine room and the generator engine room.

 

[capran]

This valve (self installed) is after the water tank. Once the tank is drained I close the valve at the tank. Next, I run a hose from the top of the valve to a fitting in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Bucket is filled with anti freeze, the pump pulls it through the system. The water heater is bypassed.

I have a single water tank with a drain at the bottom. A week or do before winter haul I drain the tank and leave the valve open so boat movement helps empty the tank. Have never added anti freeze to the tank or water heater.

The five gallon bucket has adaptors so I can attach it directly to the strainers for engine, generator and air conditioning strainers. Makes winterizing much easier. I can't find the pictures of the bucket in action. Will take some more this week if anyone is interested.


Rob

yes. more pics and every detail imaginable. I am a very, very concrette thinker. is the bottom left corner your pic water tank? is the valve you insert on the top of the red valve by the bottom left of pic? is that before or after the pump? do you have a sketch of system? I don't have a generator or a/c and the lugger engine heat exchanger is above the water line and when not running, itis dry, so wondering if the sea water strainer is empty if that needs rv fluid. I used to run my engine pouring rv into the strainer but with this boat wondering if that is needed. any and all thoughts welcome.

 

[Bacchus]

I dont have or know details of the Camano but my Mainship has 2 tanks, one fill and one gauge.
My cross connect between tanks is visible and I added a T & drain plug to fully drain tanks so no pink needed / used. Your connection & pump inlet should be at/ near bottom of tanks. To check I would pump as much as possible, disconnect and use s wet/ dry shop vac to see if any additional comes out. A luttke water in bottom of tank us not an issue as long as valves, fittings, lines are empty.
I installed a winterizing valve as close as possible to the tank outlet. These are 3 way valves that permit attaching a short hose to pull AF from a jug and pump it through the system.
If obe tank fills and overflows before the other tank is full you might have a partially plugged vent. Mfg use fuel vents w screens and they easily get plugged. Helpful to replace w a straight mushroom thru hull or at least remove the screen to gave more open area. Flushing vent w hose or vac out helps keel them clean.
I drain water heater and by pass so no AF needed. Again a small of water in bottom not a problem.
I have winterized 3 boats and 3 motorhomes in very cold NE and never put AF in drained heaters or water tanks.
In spring hook up shore water znd flush well before switching bypass back to normal.

 

[FWT]

If you don't like the pink, I have seen suggestions that a couple of jugs of cheap vodka can be useful. I have not tried it. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

If you don't like the pink, I have seen suggestions that a couple of jugs of cheap vodka can be useful. I have not tried it. Your mileage may vary.

Spring commissioning is fun if you use this method. All you need to get going for the summer is a good supply of tonic water. Or orange juice.

 

[Bacchus]

If you don't like the pink, I have seen suggestions that a couple of jugs of cheap vodka can be useful. I have not tried it. Your mileage may vary.

You will need more than a couple of jugs if you don't drain & bypass heater & tanks.
I like to blow out lines w compressed air so when you see pink you know it's full strength and not diluted and providing less freeze protection. Just seeing pink isn't a guarantee.

 

[Datenight]

yes. more pics and every detail imaginable. I am a very, very concrette thinker. is the bottom left corner your pic water tank? is the valve you insert on the top of the red valve by the bottom left of pic? is that before or after the pump? do you have a sketch of system? I don't have a generator or a/c and the lugger engine heat exchanger is above the water line and when not running, itis dry, so wondering if the sea water strainer is empty if that needs rv fluid. I used to run my engine pouring rv into the strainer but with this boat wondering if that is needed. any and all thoughts welcome.

Hi Capran,

I will take some more pictures tomorrow. The bottom left is the generator. Water tank is on the centerline about 3 feet forward of the engine. The valve is before the pump so the anti freeze is drawn through the system. Water heater (drained) is bypassed. No sketch but may attempt one. Be forewarned my drawing skills are limited at best.

My engine strainer is below the waterline. I close the seacock and stick a hose in it to flush with engine running. Next shut down engine, get ready to winterize by filling 5 gallon bucket with anti freeze. Start engine, keep pouring in anti freeze until a deep pink stream comes out exhaust pipe. This is usually done in the slings just before haul out.

Rob

 

[Dreamboat53]

I know it's a ways off, but anyone in northern climates that keep their boat on the hard, what do you do with your water tanks. Since there is no owners manual with diagrams wondering if there is a way to entirely empty both water tanks and hot water heater for winter storage on the hard. My understanding of the tanks is that they are fed by the same in hose and as you fill, one tank sort of spills into the other, rather than two separate tanks. the question is: is there a way to empty both tanks and lines to the pump? Have no idea how many dozens of gallons of rv anti freeze would take to prevent freezing.

I have 2 connected water tanks as well on my Hatteras 53. The interconnection comes off the bottom of the tanks, so there has been no issue with filling them from a single fill connection. I was able to "tee" a drain line with valve off that interconnecting line and run it to the shower sump to facilitate draining in the fall. I never put antifreeze in them. As long as your tanks have flat bottoms, even if there is 1/4" of water left in them after draining, the resulting ice in the winter won't hurt the tanks. At least it hasn't hurt mine. To be doubly sure that I get most of the water out, I disconnect the suction hose from the pump and connect it to a wet vacuum and suck out the last bit in the bottom of the tanks and at the same time also clear the lines from the tanks to the pump.
For the water heater I just open the bottom drain and empty it out.
The remaining water lines I blow out with compressed air connected to the shore connection and open taps alternately until no more water comes out.
I'm up in northern Ontario where it gets pretty cold in the winter. Have had no problems.

 

[Comodave]

When we winterized our last boat we drained the water tanks completely with the pump. Drained the water heater and put it in bypass. Then put enough-200 antifreeze to fill the pressure water lines. We would run the pressure pump until color came out of each faucet. Then we would test the antifreeze coming out with a refractometer to make sure the antifreeze wasn’t diluted too much. It would always take more than just the first color to get freeze protection down to about -20. Then we would move onto another faucet. Then the engines and test the exhaust with the refractometer. Then the bilge pumps and sump pump. The A/Cs and wash down pump. Basically everything that had freshwater in it would get antifreeze and tested with the refractometer. A lot of work but compared to having freeze damage it was easy. One year we had -12 degrees for over a week, not a year for weak diluted antifreeze. Then when we launched we filled the water tank and pumped it out multiple times until the water was clean.

This is the refractometer we used. Got it on Amazon.

Antifreeze Refractometer 4-in-1 Coolant Tester Refractometer for Checking Freezing Point of Automobile Antifreeze Systems, Anti Freeze Tester Refractometer for Battery Acid, Ethylene Propylene Glycol

 

[backinblue]

Capt obvious checking in here. But besides the regular faucets, don't forget things like windshield washers, ice makers, washdown faucets, city water inlet, shower sump, bilge pumps, air cond. pump, etc etc.

 

[Barrie]

I always seem to get my trawler forum news letter after everyone else had said my thoughts but here goes anyway.
Our 2007 Mariner PH (Helmsman 38) has two water tanks that have a common pipe between them connected at the bottom. There is no problem filling or draining. When empty there is less 1/8 inch of water. Just look in the inspection port. No pink anti-freeze needed. If what is left freezes it does no harm. I disconnect the water line after the tank and before the pump to inject pink anti-freeze throughout the system. Then open all taps and most antifreeze drains back to the lowest part of the system where i have installed two dead end shutoff valves which re-captures much of the pink anti-freeze.
The hot water tank, located on the port side, in the lazarette is by-passed and drained. No pink anti-freeze.
This all makes startup in the spring quick and easy.
Barrie