water tanks Helmsman 38E. Cold weather storage preperation

[capran]

Do you by chance have a pic of your additions? I'm a very concrete guy and would sure appreciate it.

 

[capran]

Also, thanks for info on location of the connector hose on the tanks. All I can see is the outgoing connection lines at the bottom before the pump, but there must be additional connection lines on the fill side. Mine is a 2008 hull 9 I think.

 

[catalinajack]

If you're confident you can avoid any puddles in low spots in the system, there's nothing wrong with winterizing by removing all of the water. Personally, I don't trust that I won't get a wet spot, so I just bypass the water heater and run antifreeze through everything else. Then flush a few hundred gallons of water through in the spring to get rid of the antifreeze.

Here is what I don't understand about the thinking that it is necessary to add antifreeze to drained water tanks and water heaters. Here is my thinking. Consider an ice cube tray, we fill them and put them in the freezer. The water freezes but the expansion does not split the tray, the expansion is upward. So, I do not understand how the minimal amount of water left in drained tanks, even if it freezes solid, would do any damage. Supply lines must be evacuated but this can be done with either a compressor or a vacuum pump used in strategic locations. That seems a better solution than antifreeze. In fact, I have done just that with no ill effects.

 

[rslifkin]

Here is what I don't understand about the thinking that it is necessary to add antifreeze to drained water tanks and water heaters. Here is my thinking. Consider an ice cube tray, we fill them and put them in the freezer. The water freezes but the expansion does not split the tray, the expansion is upward. So, I do not understand how the minimal amount of water left in drained tanks, even if it freezes solid, would do any damage. Supply lines must be evacuated but this can be done with either a compressor or a vacuum pump used in strategic locations. That seems a better solution than antifreeze. In fact, I have done just that with no ill effects.

I follow that theory for the water heater. But I do put antifreeze in the water tank because it's just the easiest way to get the output line taken care of and feed it to the rest of the system. I can't just pull the line off the tank on my boat as it's not at all easy to reach.

 

[ronobrien]

I know it's a ways off, but anyone in northern climates that keep their boat on the hard, what do you do with your water tanks. Since there is no owners manual with diagrams wondering if there is a way to entirely empty both water tanks and hot water heater for winter storage on the hard. My understanding of the tanks is that they are fed by the same in hose and as you fill, one tank sort of spills into the other, rather than two separate tanks. the question is: is there a way to empty both tanks and lines to the pump? Have no idea how many dozens of gallons of rv anti freeze would take to prevent freezing.

I have the system rigged to blow air instead of water through the system to remove most of the water through ALL of the taps and valves. Then add about 5 gals of RV anti freeze to the tanks and pump it through ALL of the taps and valves. If you don't care the thought of anti freeze in your tanks (if using for potable) you can pump all the anti freeze into the system and add a couple gallons of cheap vodka to the tanks. Just remember to flush the tanks in the spring or that first cup of coffee will really get you going.

 

[Cartouche]

I know it's a ways off, but anyone in northern climates that keep their boat on the hard, what do you do with your water tanks. Since there is no owners manual with diagrams wondering if there is a way to entirely empty both water tanks and hot water heater for winter storage on the hard. My understanding of the tanks is that they are fed by the same in hose and as you fill, one tank sort of spills into the other, rather than two separate tanks. the question is: is there a way to empty both tanks and lines to the pump? Have no idea how many dozens of gallons of rv anti freeze would take to prevent freezing.

Drain water tanks by running water through faucets. Bypass Hot water tank ie. Take Cold in and hot out (probably Sea tech Fittings that come apart evr easy) and I made a Cross over with a 90 at each end to re connect cold in and hot out Drain hot water tank and at Fresh water pump disconnect from the in from the tanks and then connect a piece of pipe to put in a jug of plumbing anti freeze. Then turn back on Water pump and open from high to low every faucet (Including deck wash) until pink comes out the same color as it goes in. Depending on boat Ours takes 10 jugs to winterize including head. If there is a little water left in the tanks it will be fine as there is lots of expansion room. In spring run fresh water through system before re connecting hot water tank and you will have no anti freeze smell or taste If your connections are black they are 15MM and if they are white they are 1/2"

 

[capran]

I have the system rigged to blow air instead of water through the system to remove most of the water through ALL of the taps and valves. Then add about 5 gals of RV anti freeze to the tanks and pump it through ALL of the taps and valves. If you don't care the thought of anti freeze in your tanks (if using for potable) you can pump all the anti freeze into the system and add a couple gallons of cheap vodka to the tanks. Just remember to flush the tanks in the spring or that first cup of coffee will really get you going.

if you blow air through all the lines, does that not remove all the water in the lines? I sure wish there was a way to not put the RV fluid in. an added complication, is there are two tanks but they are joined, so putting water in one tank t some point puts water in the other tank. no diagrams and all I can see is the pipe from each tank connects, with an out to the pump.

 

[capran]

I follow that theory for the water heater. But I do put antifreeze in the water tank because it's just the easiest way to get the output line taken care of and feed it to the rest of the system. I can't just pull the line off the tank on my boat as it's not at all easy to reach.

we did that on our Catalina 34. But on the Helmsman I do have access to the pump and after the pump a very easy to remove in line filter, which is what I am thinking I might be able to pump air and open each faucet to get out the water. although we have the freshwater heads, so that's an issue to figure out.

 

[rslifkin]

we did that on our Catalina 34. But on the Helmsman I do have access to the pump and after the pump a very easy to remove in line filter, which is what I am thinking I might be able to pump air and open each faucet to get out the water. although we have the freshwater heads, so that's an issue to figure out.

For my raw water heads, I just pull the intake hose off the seacock and stick it in a bottle of antifreeze (usually the -100 stuff, as I know it'll get diluted by any residual water in the holding tank). Then each head gets flushed with antifreeze long enough to take care of the head, discharge line and get some into the holding tank.

As far as blowing out the fresh water lines, no reason you can't. I just worry that I won't get them truly dry and residual water will settle to a low spot and freeze. So I treat antifreeze as a "safe" option there.

 

[capran]

Where are those two tanks on the newer 38s?

And on a related subject, is the water heater still to port in the lazarette? And are the house batteries to starboard in the lazarette?

as near as I can tell, on mine (2009) the water tanks out lines are at the back edge of the compartment under the main cabin, pretty much directly under the back sliding door on the port and starboard side. the fill is on the port side edge in the corner of the cockpit. they must be low wide tanks to fet 2 70 gallon tanks in there. I have not looked under the floor in the aft cockpit lazarette, but they must be right there.

 

[capran]

For my raw water heads, I just pull the intake hose off the seacock and stick it in a bottle of antifreeze (usually the -100 stuff, as I know it'll get diluted by any residual water in the holding tank). Then each head gets flushed with antifreeze long enough to take care of the head, discharge line and get some into the holding tank.

As far as blowing out the fresh water lines, no reason you can't. I just worry that I won't get them truly dry and residual water will settle to a low spot and freeze. So I treat antifreeze as a "safe" option there.

tecma heads on ours. assuming this would work. just disconnect the line into the water pump and put a hose in a gallon of antifreeze and attach the end to the pump.,, so instead of drawing n the empty tank youre drawing from the rv gallon container.

 

[Helmsman]

This valve (self installed) is after the water tank. Once the tank is drained I close the valve at the tank. Next, I run a hose from the top of the valve to a fitting in the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket. Bucket is filled with anti freeze, the pump pulls it through the system. The water heater is bypassed.

I have a single water tank with a drain at the bottom. A week or do before winter haul I drain the tank and leave the valve open so boat movement helps empty the tank. Have never added anti freeze to the tank or water heater.

The five gallon bucket has adaptors so I can attach it directly to the strainers for engine, generator and air conditioning strainers. Makes winterizing much easier. I can't find the pictures of the bucket in action. Will take some more this week if anyone is interested.

Rob

I would like to see how you use the bucket. Thanks.

 

[Datenight]

I would like to see how you use the bucket. Thanks.

Hello Helmsman,

It's quite simple. I have a threaded x 2" adapter screwed into the bottom of the bucket. The other end is for 2" pipe. A 3" stub of 2" pipe friction fits into the bottom of the bucket and an adapter that is screwed into the top of the strainer. Photos 1 and 2 show the three sizes I need for my NP 45. Photo 3 shows what it looks like on the bucket.

Photo 5 shows how the adaptor is attached to the bucket. A big washer and electrical conduit nut. I did caulk under the washer.

To use, close the seacock, remove the cap, screw in the adapter. Then insert the 3" long 2" stub into the adapter and push the bucket onto the stub. Fill bucket with anti freeze to winterize AC, Generator and main engine. Even though it is only a friction fit I don't seem to have a problem with leaks.

To winterize the fresh water system, photo 4, I set the bucket up in the saloon with a hose (and special adaptor!). The hose runs to a "T" valve I have installed before the water pump. Water heater is set to bypass and fresh water tank has already been drained. The water pump draws the anti freeze through the entire system. Simply run each tap hot and cold until good pink comes out. Flush toilet several times, don't forget the fresh water wash down and windshield washers!

Very easy to do I should get a photo of the bucket sitting on the the strainer. Should be able to do that later this week.

Hope this helps,

Rob

 

[Helmsman]

Hello Helmsman,

It's quite simple. I have a threaded x 2" adapter screwed into the bottom of the bucket. The other end is for 2" pipe. A 3" stub of 2" pipe friction fits into the bottom of the bucket and an adapter that is screwed into the top of the strainer. Photos 1 and 2 show the three sizes I need for my NP 45. Photo 3 shows what it looks like on the bucket.

Photo 5 shows how the adaptor is attached to the bucket. A big washer and electrical conduit nut. I did caulk under the washer.

To use, close the seacock, remove the cap, screw in the adapter. Then insert the 3" long 2" stub into the adapter and push the bucket onto the stub. Fill bucket with anti freeze to winterize AC, Generator and main engine. Even though it is only a friction fit I don't seem to have a problem with leaks.

To winterize the fresh water system, photo 4, I set the bucket up in the saloon with a hose (and special adaptor!). The hose runs to a "T" valve I have installed before the water pump. Water heater is set to bypass and fresh water tank has already been drained. The water pump draws the anti freeze through the entire system. Simply run each tap hot and cold until good pink comes out. Flush toilet several times, don't forget the fresh water wash down and windshield washers!

Very easy to do I should get a photo of the bucket sitting on the the strainer. Should be able to do that later this week.

Hope this helps,

Rob

Thank you. Works well I bet. I use a funnel with bungee cords and a hose back to the bucket. It is something I bought a few years ago and works well. Can’t remember the manufacturer but the hose seals to the funnel, which sits in the strainer compartment like your bucket would.

 

[Datenight]

Thank you. Works well I bet. I use a funnel with bungee cords and a hose back to the bucket. It is something I bought a few years ago and works well. Can’t remember the manufacturer but the hose seals to the funnel, which sits in the strainer compartment like your bucket would.

I have seen those. They look like they would work well also. Just wanted more volume when doing the engine.

Rob

 

[Helmsman]

I have seen those. They look like they would work well also. Just wanted more volume when doing the engine.

Rob

How many gallons do you normally put through one engine. I had Crusader gas engines and would normally run about 7 gallons through. The Helmsman will have a QSB 6.7 diesel.

 

[Bacchus]

if you blow air through all the lines, does that not remove all the water in the lines? I sure wish there was a way to not put the RV fluid in. an added complication, is there are two tanks but they are joined, so putting water in one tank t some point puts water in the other tank. no diagrams and all I can see is the pipe from each tank connects, with an out to the pump.

Our Mainship has 2 tanks with a hose connection between them. I installed a T and a plug to positively drain the tanks. No pink AF reqd in tanks. Lines are easy to flush out in the spring. I added a water heater bypass. Drain the heater and bypass before adding pink AF and leave bypassed to flush in the spring.
I also blow out before pumping AF to ensure there is no dilution and lowered freeze point... shut off faucet etc when pink appears.
Blowing out alone has a risk that a low spot may still have water... you can never be 100% sure until it's too late... not worth the risk IMO

 

[rslifkin]

How many gallons do you normally put through one engine. I had Crusader gas engines and would normally run about 7 gallons through. The Helmsman will have a QSB 6.7 diesel.

For the first time, I'd go by feel. Probably until you see it from the exhaust plus another 2 gallons or so to reduce dilution.



With the gas 454s on my boat, it's 9 gallons per side. I usually start seeing antifreeze at the exhausts around the 7 gallon mark, but with the amount of liquid held in the 2 stage waterlift mufflers, I go for 9 to be safe. I'd expect the raw water system in the Helmsman is no larger than mine (hoses on the QSB are probably a bit bigger, heat exchanger probably holds more, but I'd expect a bit less held in the muffler and probably not 12 feet of pipe between the muffler and the hull discharge).

 

[Helmsman]

For the first time, I'd go by feel. Probably until you see it from the exhaust plus another 2 gallons or so to reduce dilution.



With the gas 454s on my boat, it's 9 gallons per side. I usually start seeing antifreeze at the exhausts around the 7 gallon mark, but with the amount of liquid held in the 2 stage waterlift mufflers, I go for 9 to be safe. I'd expect the raw water system in the Helmsman is no larger than mine (hoses on the QSB are probably a bit bigger, heat exchanger probably holds more, but I'd expect a bit less held in the muffler and probably not 12 feet of pipe between the muffler and the hull discharge).

Sounds reasonable. Thank you!

 

[Datenight]

How many gallons do you normally put through one engine. I had Crusader gas engines and would normally run about 7 gallons through. The Helmsman will have a QSB 6.7 diesel.

We have the QSB 6.7 also. Start seeing pink around four gallons and usually run about seven as well.

Rob

 

[ronobrien]

Funny story. I was winterizing last year and running A/F through the engines. Inadvertently I picked up a gallon jug of cleaning concentrate that looked identical to the A/F. A friend was helping me, I had one engine running and introducing the "A/F" into the raw water pickup when he starts yelling to shut it down. I couldn't imagine what was wrong until I looked out the back and saw what looked like a giant bubble machine, more like foam actually. I was puzzled until I picked up the gallon jug and actually read it. Ran some actual A/F through it and all is well. At least my engine will be clean.

 

[Helmsman]

We have the QSB 6.7 also. Start seeing pink around four gallons and usually run about seven as well.

Rob

I think that 7 gallons is what I will plan for. I also use the -100 degree antifreeze. Reading about the -50 versus the -100, apparently the -50 begins to freeze at a much higher temperature than the rated -50. If I remember correctly, it begins to thicken around 10 degrees.

Here is an article on the West Marine site, discussing this. The article states that the -50 begins to thicken at 12 degrees, while the -100 thickens at -60.

So, there are three elements to it, in my view. The temperature rating, the amount of dilution within the protected system, and the lowest expected temperature of the geographic area the boat resides in.

https://newcontent.westmarine.com/content/documents/pdfs/Antifreeze_101_Revised(2).pdf

 

[capran]

Thank you again. 2 month cruise is over and finalizing plans to go back to winterize

Our Mainship has 2 tanks with a hose connection between them. I installed a T and a plug to positively drain the tanks. No pink AF reqd in tanks. Lines are easy to flush out in the spring. I added a water heater bypass. Drain the heater and bypass before adding pink AF and leave bypassed to flush in the spring.
I also blow out before pumping AF to ensure there is no dilution and lowered freeze point... shut off faucet etc when pink appears.
Blowing out alone has a risk that a low spot may still have water... you can never be 100% sure until it's too late... not worth the risk IMO

When you blow out with a compressor, is there a PSI I can control on the compressor side? I saw a reference of keeping the PSI to 40 PSI so as not to damage any lines. Also, did you attach the compressor before the water pump of after the water pump? Hopefully I'll order a compressor or pick up this week. not sure of a recommended model. At this point, I like your thinking of blow out AND get the lines with RV antifreeze run pink through every line. In this order: 1) drain water tanks with regular water pump 2) empty any water in hot water heater using the drain coupling at bottom of hot water heater. 3) hook up compressor to water line to line as it comes out of the tanks, before the water pump and run through RV antifreeze through every hot and cold faucet till pink. We're on the hard in Anacortes Wa so thinking the -50 should do. (It's what I was using on sailboat.) ((will post a separate thread question about Tecma Heads and Lugger 85 HP engine.)) Any other recommendations from you or others are most appreciated!

 

[Barrie]

Please tell me if i am doing something wrong!
When I winterize the engine, generator and air-conditioning, I go to the water intake filters, close the valves, remove the filters then suck out the little bit of water left with a wet-dry vacuum. My wife then starts things up while i pour large jugs of pink AF and dump it in the filter. No muss or fuss and fast. When she sees pink coming out the exits she shuts down. (yes mufflers were drained) Washdown and toilets are similar.
For the plumbing, I let the pressure pump suck it through a separate hose that is "T"ed before the pump but after the water tank.
Does anyone see any problems with this system? Or is this the norm?
Thanks Barrie

 

[backinblue]

When you blow out with a compressor, is there a PSI I can control on the compressor side? I saw a reference of keeping the PSI to 40 PSI so as not to damage any lines. Also, did you attach the compressor before the water pump of after the water pump? Hopefully I'll order a compressor or pick up this week. not sure of a recommended model. At this point, I like your thinking of blow out AND get the lines with RV antifreeze run pink through every line. In this order: 1) drain water tanks with regular water pump 2) empty any water in hot water heater using the drain coupling at bottom of hot water heater. 3) hook up compressor to water line to line as it comes out of the tanks, before the water pump and run through RV antifreeze through every hot and cold faucet till pink. We're on the hard in Anacortes Wa so thinking the -50 should do. (It's what I was using on sailboat.) ((will post a separate thread question about Tecma Heads and Lugger 85 HP engine.)) Any other recommendations from you or others are most appreciated!

What are you gaining by using compressed air followed by antifreeze? I think that many people who blow out the lines with air is because they don't want to add antifreeze. If you are running antifreeze through all the lines anyway, why bother with the air?

 

[Comodave]

Please tell me if i am doing something wrong!
When I winterize the engine, generator and air-conditioning, I go to the water intake filters, close the valves, remove the filters then suck out the little bit of water left with a wet-dry vacuum. My wife then starts things up while i pour large jugs of pink AF and dump it in the filter. No muss or fuss and fast. When she sees pink coming out the exits she shuts down. (yes mufflers were drained) Washdown and toilets are similar.
For the plumbing, I let the pressure pump suck it through a separate hose that is "T"ed before the pump but after the water tank.
Does anyone see any problems with this system? Or is this the norm?
Thanks Barrie

Just because you see pink coming out of the exhaust doesn’t mean that you are protected. When we winterized we would test each and every outlet with a refractometer to see what temperature the antifreeze was good to. Always when we first saw color the temperature would be +20 to +30 degrees. Remember that there is still quite a bit of water inside the engine that will dilute the antifreeze. We would keep adding antifreeze until we got a test that showed at least -20. We used -200 degrees antifreeze. We used a lot of antifreeze but we never had anything freeze and break, think engine block. It would be a PITA to break water lines but it would be a disaster to crack a block. For the engines we used an adapter called Sea Flush. It is simple and quick to use. Take the top off the strainer and remove the basket. Insert the Sea Flush and use a 5 gallon bucket for the antifreeze. It would suck in the 5 gallons in a couple of minutes. My wife would stand by the exhaust and test the antifreeze, takes about 20 seconds. You put a couple of drops on the refractometer and hold it up to the light and read the temperature off the scale.

 

[Comodave]

What are you gaining by using compressed air followed by antifreeze? I think that many people who blow out the lines with air is because they don't want to add antifreeze. If you are running antifreeze through all the lines anyway, why bother with the air?

You may save some antifreeze by blowing the lines out first so the antifreeze isn’t diluted by the water remaining in the lines. I never went to the extra effort of blowing them out.

 

[backinblue]

You may save some antifreeze by blowing the lines out first so the antifreeze isn’t diluted by the water remaining in the lines. I never went to the extra effort of blowing them out.

Although you are correct, I can't imagine that it's worth the trouble to save a minimal amount of antifreeze. I thought most people who blow out the lines do so because they do not want to introduce antifreeze into their water system. I've never had an issue rinsing out the antifreeze in the spring, although I don't rely on my water tanks for drinking, etc, as much as some members do.

 

[Comodave]

Although you are correct, I can't imagine that it's worth the trouble to save a minimal amount of antifreeze. I thought most people who blow out the lines do so because they do not want to introduce antifreeze into their water system. I've never had an issue rinsing out the antifreeze in the spring, although I don't rely on my water tanks for drinking, etc, as much as some members do.

I agree. We just pumped the water tanks empty and added antifreeze to the tanks. Then ran it through the water lines. I had enough work winterizing the boat to mess with blowing out the lines first.

 

[Cartouche]

Please tell me if i am doing something wrong!
When I winterize the engine, generator and air-conditioning, I go to the water intake filters, close the valves, remove the filters then suck out the little bit of water left with a wet-dry vacuum. My wife then starts things up while i pour large jugs of pink AF and dump it in the filter. No muss or fuss and fast. When she sees pink coming out the exits she shuts down. (yes mufflers were drained) Washdown and toilets are similar.
For the plumbing, I let the pressure pump suck it through a separate hose that is "T"ed before the pump but after the water tank.
Does anyone see any problems with this system? Or is this the norm?
Thanks Barrie

Yes all good but hopefully you don't use pink in the engine and Generator. It does knot have inhibitors for an engine and will not read on a hygrometer. I use green -100 and capture from the exhaust in a cup and measure to ensure over -50 protection. by just waiting for pink a:how pink is it (is it still diluted) b: you will never know as you can not test the efficacy