What does radar do that my eyes can't?

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Exactly! I think 240 replies have exhausted this subject.
 
So would someone please address what’s the downside of using radar?
Sure there’s nuances that require training but the vast majority is intuitive if you leave it on and glance at it time to time correlating the radar image to your eyes and a chart.
Maybe that experience will incentivize you to go further in learning its capabilities. It’s been said here most recreational boaters are nearly clueless in its use. Maybe that’s true or maybe not. I’m unaware of any formal assessment. Even so a superficial understanding gets you a significant advantage in avoiding mishaps.
I’ve learned by experience. Haven’t done much of the formal training the professional Mariners here have done. Yes, have done courses in weather, diesel, electrical systems, safety at sea, celestial etc. but even to me as a dilettante I’ve learned how to interpret radar images, triangulate, navigate, use ARPA/MARPA, see weather, adjust the device to get the information I want, set up alarm zones etc.. That’s just with messing around. No cost to me. No heavy lifting
The bit about information overload seems way overwrought to me. Even if you only have one screen to look at you can split it or do AIS/radar as a overlay. Please come forward and explain why you have resistance to using it.
As Mikey was told “try it you’ll like itl
Did have bourbon favored pancakes once. Weird but edible. In the cooking the alcohol left so prefer single malt on the side.
 
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The downside to overloading any single watchstander is well documented...at least in aviation where it is way more prevalent than in commercial vessel activity...therefore lightly investigated/monitored in recreational boating.


The real issue is that many owners buy boats with radar after decades of boating without it. The number of boaters that run out of the channel or into things because they are distracted is mind boggling.


Viewing this issue from a very experienced point of view is difficult...the main reason maybe I can is my training and experience in training new boaters and being fully immersed with them for decades.


Even the extraordinarily bright people I taught could easily get overloaded when I just stood back and watched when they started missing things because their uncertainty in one or two necessary items started to give stress..like shallowing water, of a slight rise in engine temp, etc...etc...
 
Gee, interesting perspective. Not disagreeing respect your experience. We’ve crossed oceans with inexperienced crew. Our habit has been to try to take two excellent crew and myself. Then know we can run the boat. But really like taking a fourth who’s a newbie. Explain believe your eyes, body, nose, senses first. Have them read the opening screen stating all that stuff is a AID in navigation out loud. Give them a poke every time they fall into screen hypnosis. Double watch with them a time or two or three and they’re good to go.
Find the most difficult are those who think they know everything. “I’ve been doing it this way for years”. Unfortunately they may be unable to learn. I’ve learned a ton from crew and when I’ve crewed for others. The difficult group is those who live their lives on screens. They rather believe the screen than their senses. Tough group. But in general the failing has been screen hypnosis which can occur whatever the screen is showing. Have had that sickness myself but the admiral gives me shock therapy and it passes.
 
In depth training is the only success in ensuring watch standers do and react as wanted. All the experience in the world doesn't necessarily make up for identifying limitations and setting the stage so they are not exceeded. Thus the high standards for appointing and set by instruction and standardization teams.


Every few years new theories come out why people do things and react certain ways. There are basics that seem to never change and one of those is that inattention brought on by boredom has to be managed at higher than the personal level. Thus when you are the captain and sole watchstander on a vessel, certain givens to keep your focus on the important. Automation is great, right up to the point of it has to be automatic when things go critical and not draw attention away from ones basic senses....especially if it is redundant.
 
One of my areas of questioning in selecting crew is about heavy weather, breakdown and and other mishap experience. Continue to believe training is very much worthwhile but so is experience. Once you go through a storm or two or other stressful experience and come out on the other side you’re more able to keep calm and sail on. Not escalating is key. Some can some can’t. True in an E.R. during a code, in a firefight, or on a boat. In all these settings both training and experience are needed.
Went through 2 footitis. Crewed and crew for people more skilled and experienced then me. Slowly built up my skill set such as it is. Continue to try to learn. That way have gained training but also experience. Currently find folks who gone through US captains courses or all the ASA courses but are truly unsafe on a boat. The current situation where some people haven’t “paid their dues” or however you want to put it and just made use of their financial resources has contributed to this state of affairs.
 
Hippocampus said:
One of my areas of questioning in selecting crew is about heavy weather, breakdown and and other mishap experience. Continue to believe training is very much worthwhile but so is experience. Once you go through a storm or two or other stressful experience and come out on the other side you’re more able to keep calm and sail on. Not escalating is key. Some can some can’t. True in an E.R. during a code, in a firefight, or on a boat. In all these settings both training and experience are needed.
Went through 2 footitis. Crewed and crew for people more skilled and experienced then me. Slowly built up my skill set such as it is. Continue to try to learn. That way have gained training but also experience. Currently find folks who gone through US captains courses or all the ASA courses but are truly unsafe on a boat. The current situation where some people haven’t “paid their dues” or however you want to put it and just made use of their financial resources has contributed to this state of affairs.
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I won't go into the discussion of experience versus training on offshore passages on small vessels...not my experience area, but I certainly have disagreements with some of your opinions there...and expertise as to why.


I am just talking about the average weekend and vacation boaters that puts maybe 100 hrs on a vessel a year and never ventures more than maybe 300 miles from home. Travels in daylight and fair conditions.


That's probably in excess of 90% of all boaters. The COLREGs are really not well written for this crowd and both the USCG and Boating Safety people at the state level recognize that and set up the Boating Safety Certificate courses to their level...not the experienced people you often find on TF.


Thinking this group of people thinks or acts like the textbook version of seamanship is ridiculous. Look at all the complaint of how these people tie up their boats, or run a channel or wake others in an anchorage....this is a huge but different group.


My points and probably most others points about radar is mostly lost on them as it just isn't a priority for them... so suggesting they keep it and get better at it is great...but suggesting it's mandatory that it be on all the time and used suggests they will get more out of it than it may be a distraction. That starts to go into my area of expertise. So I will just say that I don't agree it's a rule or agree that running radar for everyone all the time while underway is really a great anti collision tool.


Beyond that...have at it for radar discussion. I hope everyone learns something about radar...including myths about it and other electronics.
 
Good answer. Even early on when I owned boats under 35’ and had very limited free time always thought sailing and boating could be a lifetime pastime. Always something new to learn, a new thing to do and a new place to go. Kinda like fishing, golfing, camping or hunting. You’re right many aren’t boat nuts. It isn’t a passion for most. And there’s Jeff foxworthy’s famous statement

You can’t fix stupid.

But fortunately don’t think there’s any of those on this forum. Although we all do stupid stuff time to time.

Would note the history of mandated behavior isn’t that wonderful. Just look at prohibition. Never argued that it be mandatory. Unenforceable and like you say may increase rather than decrease risk.
 
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Not that other professions don't go thru the same...but Naval flight training was weird to a youngster like me when the 2 distinct phases of initial training were...


1st Phase Visual Flight Rules.... always trust your instincts....always question your instruments when unsure what they are telling you.


2nd Phase Instrument flight rules....always trust your instruments...the seat of your pants could be lying to you.


I knew pretty early on to never trust anything fully, not your crew (yes you bet your life on them most of the time), your aircraft and it's systems, your supervisor, the reporting source, the info from the boat below, etc...etc...


About the time I started getting good at bundling all that info was about the time my own body/mind started failing me....reaction time down, eyes losing day/night vision, knowing not being invincible overtook me....etc...etc... so relying on outside things needed more attention.


The worst and maybe the best training I ever had was my last night, shipboard qualifications. Already demoted from aircraft commander to first pilot due to lack of flying hours (now very senior for my current flying assignment)...the poor, much junior to me aircraft commander let me make the approach to the ship and the necessary touch and gos which were safe but not pretty. He quickly said "that's it sir, your last one".... I quipped back with a good laugh and said.... "you bet that's my LAST one". Realizing you are getting in over your head is the most valuable lesson of all.


AS to people being stupid if not "boat nuts"... that would only be true if everyone who does anything not at a professional excellence level is stupid.... not happening. That's why so many TF discussions go awry thinking everyone boats for the same reasons with the same gusto.
 
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High Wire said:
Sure. Take a zoomed in look at the OP's radar settings from Post#1. See anything that could be a problem?
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Those aren't my settings. They were taken long before I owned, or even moved aboard it.

However, my know nothing mind wants to say that the gain is set extremely too high?
 
HTurner said:
I have made syrup with rum.
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Funny you mention that. On one weekend trip I brought the pancakes and bacon but forgot the syrup. Improvised by mixing some rum with Baileys and pouring that on the finished pancakes. Maybe have been some of the best we ever had! Much for fun than learning radar. JUST KIDDING!!!
 
The fire control techs on USS Preble where I was XO tied a sausage to the flagstaff one day and aimed one of these bad boys (AN/SPG-55B missile system fire control radar) at it. Blew the thing apart. Who says we didn't have a death ray?
 

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toocoys said:
Those aren't my settings. They were taken long before I owned, or even moved aboard it.

However, my know nothing mind wants to say that the gain is set extremely too high?
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Taking a guess.
The Sea clutter and Rain clutter knobs should be at zero (full ccw) unless there’s a good reason (big waves and downpour). Sea clutter reduces targets close to the boat. Too much and nearby boats disappear. Really bad. Rain clutter knocks down the returns too. I’m guessing that is why the Gain is cranked so high to try to compensate. The manual explains all this.
 
Anyone associated with military radar or defense contracting involvement has stories of radar that can do spectacular things and produce power that will do amazing things.


Comparing these radar to small boat radar is not really fair. I could use comparisons, but all it would do is get the jokesters and argumentative types to run the thread all over the place.


Yes there is radiation but like some radiation studies have revealed that the suns radiation in Denver or to airline flight crews to be worse than some forms of electronics.... I would only believe a tiny bit of chatter rather than examples of radars that aren't even in the same league due to design parameters.


This one is ancient and over a 1,000,000 watts...not telling what hot dog heaters are out there now...but on a small boat?
 

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Wasn’t saying that at all. Rather many people just want a fun day out in the water. Not obsessed like many here. That has nothing to do with intelligence. But there are definitely some who take their $100 kayaks out in the cold waters of New England on a falling tide with a strong west wind blowing when the next thing east of them is Portugal. Those folks do exist. Have given them a ride home and didn’t even get a thank you. Just guff I wasn’t going fast enough and why I didn’t drag all the kayaks with me (there were four) and I was on a 25’ cape Dory by myself.
 
Hippocampus said:
Wasn’t saying that at all. Rather many people just want a fun day out in the water. Not obsessed like many here. That has nothing to do with intelligence. But there are definitely some who take their $100 kayaks out in the cold waters of New England on a falling tide with a strong west wind blowing when the next thing east of them is Portugal. Those folks do exist. Have given them a ride home and didn’t even get a thank you. Just guff I wasn’t going fast enough and why I didn’t drag all the kayaks with me (there were four) and I was on a 25’ cape Dory by myself.
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Sure. I was one of those people for the first thirty years of my life. Some of the crap my dad pulled when boating in my youth… :rolleyes: But then I received real training and mentoring and some hard knocks. Some of the craziest boating stuff I saw when I was doing enforcement was by the smartest people who often are who can afford the best equipment - theoretically. Wrote lots of tickets to surgeons and judges and professors and MBA types. Of course some of those are unable to listen to anyone, by disposition.
 
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Alaskaflyer said:
Sure. I was one of those people for the first thirty years of my life. Some of the crap my dad pulled when boating in my youth… :rolleyes: But then I received training and mentoring and some hard knocks.
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Thanks.
......inexperience doesn't make a person stupid unless they keep repeating their mistakes or refuse to listen to people with more training/experience... or get it themselves.


Well....sure there are some things so basic even a caveman can understand and doing them earns the stupid title...bt not at the level many if not most level that are discussed here between people with decades of high levels of boating.


Anyone doubting can go to a "boating" or "kayaking" or "fishing" website and look at some of the questions asked. Not only are the questions so basic, the levels of what could go wrong in terms of safety and survival aren't even on the horizon.


They weren't for me and many of the boaters I knew years ago.... years in the USCG with ooodles of training/education and years in commercial service took me light years beyond the typical boaters knowledge or even cares. The old you don't know what you don't know abounds in any hobby unless it's your passion. Doesn't make you stupid, just inexperienced. Most likely the vast majority of hobbyists never go much beyond the basics of any hobby.
 
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Scooby5959 said:
Yeah sorry I didn’t think I was starting a new thread . anyways crossing the Pacific would be fun don’t know if I could do it in my Nordic 26 however. I’m a pretty handy guy I can do all the work myself welding on fuel tanks etc. just wondered if anybody knows what those boats can actually handle .
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The question isn't so much what the boat can handle. It's what can you handle at the helm of that boat. Thinking about the time you hit above 10' wind waves, you're way over your head.
 
psneeld said:
Comparing these radar to small boat radar is not really fair. I could use comparisons, but all it would do is get the jokesters and argumentative types to run the thread all over the place.
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Comparing a fire control radar to a small boat radar? Not. Just a an interesting aside.

Imagine using one to roast the attacking middle easterners in their annoying Whalers in the Hormuz Strait once that region goes hot.
 
rgano said:
Comparing a fire control radar to a small boat radar? Not. Just a an interesting aside.

Imagine using one to roast the attacking middle easterners in their annoying Whalers in the Hormuz Strait once that region goes hot.
Click to expand...


Didn't think you were seriously, but there were a bunch of posts all mentioning radar of way different magnitudes.


Think I saw where Israel took out drones with lasers...our laser program I believe is maturing enough that backing off the rail gun seems like a connection and the increased power supplies being installed on USN ships may be too. That would be as impressive (probably more so) than fire control radar which is a bad boy unto itself. I think some of that tech was used to come up with the ISAR. The little I know about it is that USCG C130s had radar that could just about ID a ship from it's profile at unbelievable ranges. That was back in the early 90s.
 
When I worked in Alaska I trained with some of the security forces at the small bases operated by the 213th space warning squadron. They said they had regular details to clean up the dead birds from in front of the single large array, but it was only a problem out to about 20 or so feet. And some of those were probably strikes not radiation :D
 
WAY back in 1981 when I attended the Naval War College in Newport, we were given temporary and very high security clearances to tell us of some radar things then online as well as some "coming down the pike," and I am still amazed. Some of them I have never heard mentioned in the open press like when the security veil is finally lifted. Same for satellites.
 
As a young engineer working for a military contractor, I had top secret clearance working on this:

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jstars/

The article mentioned it was first deployed during desert storm while still under development. It was basically a prototype and the crew included some of my fellow civilian engineers flying combat missions because the USAF was not trained at the time. It was instrumental in targeting SCUD missiles and bringing a quick end to the war.
 
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