What should I have done?

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I give JDCAVE a lot of credit for asking the question about what he should have done.

As usual, I really enjoy all of your advice on this.

"Close calls" are wonderful teaching moments. Accidents teach, too, just not so wonderfully!
 
markpierce said:
My point was that one should not wait for the last instant to signal. Have rarely needed to signal except to announce my entrance/exit at a marina with high breakwater or to test/exercise the horn every day underway (enjoying the echoing under the Carquinez Strait bridges).:)
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Correct. You shouldn't wait. But you should also use the correct signals.
 
eagle419 said:
It seems I don't have a clue either. What does 4 short blasts on the horn mean?
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Nothing, it was a mistake made by JD and then reiterated by me. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it is is 5 short blasts, which in Canada would mean "danger" or "unsure of your intentions" and in the US Salish Sea waters would mean "unsure of your intentions"

Me, being completely and utterly ignorant, would not have caught the mistake if one of the more well informed TF folks hadn't pointed it out. Once again, I am learning from you all.
 
Capt.Bill11 said:
Correct. You shouldn't wait. But you should also use the correct signals.
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Yes, but are you communicating "here I am, make your move" or "we're about to collide, let's make the best of it." It's a matter of timing.
 
markpierce said:
Illegal for USCG documented vessels, but does it concern for us "tiny tot" recreational vehicles?
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Not exactly sure what you are asking here.

It's not a matter of the legality of the way the name is displied.

But if you boated in the ICW or other areas with lots of narrow channels on a regular basis you would come to understand how frustrating it can be to be trying to do the right thing and call a vessel ahead of you to arrange a slow pass well ahead of time and find you can't read the vessels name until you are right in top of it.
 
I get what CaptBill is saying. We should all know the rules and abide by them perfectly. If we don't, then we are placing every boater on the water at grave risk, increasing our liability in the case of a collision, face ridicule among our peers, and our mother's won't love us anymore. I don't disagree. OTOH, in the event that a skipper is oblivious to your existence, it would seem that ANY auditory alert would be better than nothing.

But I may be wrong....
 
Capt.Bill11 said:
Not exactly sure what you are asking here.

It's not a matter of the legality of the way the name is displied.

But if you boated in the ICW or other areas with lots of narrow channels on a regular basis you would come to understand how frustrating it can be to be trying to do the right thing and call a vessel ahead of you to arrange a slow pass well ahead of time and find you can't read the vessels name until you are right in top of it.
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Completely understand your point, but I'm doubtful the USCG enforces the font requirements applying to small-boat documented vessels.
 
Another thought....

I think Hawgwash makes excellent points. I have found that in most cases where I have found myself in less than desirable situations on the water, I can usually trace them back to poor or untimely decisions on my part. I think that JD handled the situation well but that is not saying that there may have been things that could have been done earlier to make the situation more of a non-event. Reading the discussions of these types of events is helpful to me
 
dhays said:
Nothing, it was a mistake made by JD and then reiterated by me. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it is is 5 short blasts, which in Canada would mean "danger" or "unsure of your intentions" and in the US Salish Sea waters would mean "unsure of your intentions"

Me, being completely and utterly ignorant, would not have caught the mistake if one of the more well informed TF folks hadn't pointed it out. Once again, I am learning from you all.
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Sorry Dave, I was also pointing out your error, but you stated it with such conviction I tried sarcasm. Please accept my apologies:)

As Capt Bill pointed out, again with some humour, a pilot boat in fog sounds 4 short, so it doesn't mean 'nothing' after all.
 
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markpierce said:
Yes, but are you communicating "here I am, make your move" or "we're about to collide, let's make the best of it." It's a matter of timing.
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5 or more short blasts of the horn is not a collision only signal. And it can and should be sounded well in advance of a possible collision and any time you are in doubt of the other vessels intentions. There is no legally recognized "here I am, make your move" signal by the way. So it's not some timing issue in this case. Where you sound some meaningless signal firdt. And then follow it up with a collision signal after the meaningless signal has been ignored or misunderstood.

Clarity is the whole point of having defined signals. Otherwise what's the point of having them.

But in your case feel free to make them up as you go along. It's seems to have worked for you so far. Although perhaps the same can't be said for the vessels around you. :D



"When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. This signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes."
 
dhays said:
I get what CaptBill is saying. We should all know the rules and abide by them perfectly. If we don't, then we are placing every boater on the water at grave risk, increasing our liability in the case of a collision, face ridicule among our peers, and our mother's won't love us anymore. I don't disagree. OTOH, in the event that a skipper is oblivious to your existence, it would seem that ANY auditory alert would be better than nothing.

But I may be wrong....
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It's not that you're wrong. It's just that it's as easy to use the right signal in most cases as it is to make one up. And by using the right signal you are CYA in the event something bad happens.

And hey, sometimes the other guy actually knows what the hell the signal means and acts accordingly.




OK, you can stop laughing at that last part now.
 
JDCAVE said:
Thanks for your comments Hawgwash. I agree that I should have responded differently. I should have:

1) Sounded 5 or more blasts in the horn immediately. This does not require him to respond on the VHF, only that he hears me. (That said, I don't think this would have promoted him to change his actions, as he didn't understand his obligations in the first place or slow down.)

2) At the same time slowing down to idle forward only.

3) do not turn to starboard, but maintain heading...turning to starboard would have increased the risk of collision in this case as he came across my bow before heading to his starboard.

I do not agree however with your assertion that Enterprise Channel isn't narrow: there isn't a lot of water between the kelp beds north of the reefs off Trial Islands. Also the track I showed on the chart is as I remember the situation but probably is a poor representation of the situation.

Typically I assess situations and regularly contact other vessels in VHF to arrange safe passes.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
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Jim, I think you handled the situation as well as you could under the circumstances. It does sound like the other skipper was either not keeping a proper watch, or dumb enough to think a sail boat has right of way whether under sail or not - which helps to explain your initial hesitance, because you were waiting for him to do the proper thing. Having realised he was not going to, you did what was required. Yes, not stalling the engine would have been good, and needs addressing, but hardly something you would expect. The only thing I would add is to always make sure you turn on the breaker switch to your horn at start-up. Something I now always do, since once wanting the horn, and found like you, it was switched off at the main board.
Cheers,
 
Well, thanks to a handy cheat sheet that one of you posted earlier and I printed out, I will be much further along at identifying the correct signal the next time I need it. Just need to get it laminated and find a spot in the cockpit for it where it won't simply blow away.....
 
I had a similar encounter in my car, actually. I was parked behind another car in a parking lot. I had my keys out of the ignition, and was preparing to get out of the car when I noticed that the car ahead of me was starting to back up... toward me. The driver never even turned around to look behind her. She didn't know I was there until she hit me. I had about 2 seconds to react, and I tried blowing the horn. Turns out, my horn doesn't work when the car is off and the key is out. Who knew?

So, flip the horn breaker to 'on' and break the switch off... haha.
 
Aside from the barbs thrown at sailors, the biggest problem here is time spent speculating on the other skipper's intentions. After 40 years driving large trucks, I can tell you that you can never know what's in someone elses mind. Much better to make a course correction obvious to anyone watching and to plan on keeping out of their way. If they blow by oblivious to your presence, so be it.

In regards to others who might understand sound signals, it might be an over generalization (like many here), but I would suggest that those are the folks likely to pay attention and not put you into the position of having to guess what they might do on the water.
 
bcam said:
In regards to others who might understand sound signals, it might be an over generalization (like many here), but I would suggest that those are the folks likely to pay attention and not put you into the position of having to guess what they might do on the water.
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:thumb: Think that's true 90+% of the time. Not like there is an enforced requirement (test or licence) to know the rules if you operate a boat.

Ted
 
MarkPierce: Your post #28 in regards to ships signalling when approaching "a plethora" of sailboats in a channel "one prolonged blast" is the proper signal. Considering the smaller boats cannot all be seen by the approaching ship or obscured by other sailboats.
 
JDCAVE said:
What would you suggest I should have done in this instance?
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
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Recognized that way too many sail boaters assume rules of the waterway do not apply to them.

My wife is a great helms person. When she spots a sail boat under power (aren't they all ), who is the obvious give way vessel but shows no I intentions of doing so, her normal refrain is "here we go AGAIN!"
 
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ulysses said:
MarkPierce: Your post #28 in regards to ships signalling when approaching "a plethora" of sailboats in a channel "one prolonged blast" is the proper signal. Considering the smaller boats cannot all be seen by the approaching ship or obscured by other sailboats.
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No, not really.

"(d)When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. This signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes.
(e) A vessel nearing a bend or an area of a channel or fairway where other vessels may be obscured by an intervening obstruction shall sound one prolonged blast. This signal shall be answered with a prolonged blast by any approaching vessel that may be within hearing around the bend or behind the intervening obstruction."
 
Capt.Bill11: Having spent no little time on the larger ships, the prolonged blast when you know there a vessels that you can't see is a fairly common signal. The five blasts would certainly be in order under the the conditions that you fail to understand the intentions of the other vessel. Given MarkPierce's post there would not necessarily be any confusion of signals since there had not been any signals to begin with. The ship is making it a point to say "I know you are out there but I can't see you". Tows use the same signal when coming around a bend especially when the can assume someone is around there but have failed to make radio contact for whatever reason.

To state that the signal "means nothing" is certainly not true. It means exactly what the rules dictate it means and is probably used to protect the pilot from a claim that when he lost sight of the vessels did he signal such ?

One would have to consider that the problems expressed by many on here as to sail boaters is that through forums like these, verbal communications at the club, where someone says "you are a sailboat therefore you always have the right-of -way, they take that as gospel rather than learning the rules. That being said one pro-longed blast of the whistle does mean something.
 
In further support of the one prolonged blast being the proper ship signal when approaching a plethora of sailing vessels in a channel, is the nature of the one prolonged blast itself. There are three instances within the rules where a one prolonged blast is provided. 1. ship at anchor 2. Inland departure 3. As noted above when vessels may be obscured. The signal is one of the few that does not signify an action on the vessel making the signal. In other words it does not signal that "I am altering my course.." or "I am going astern". It is used in all cases as an attention getting signal only. It may or may not be followed by the proper passing or overtaking signals as may be appropriate.

In the situation that was presented in MarkPierce's #28 post it is evident that was its intent. If on the other hand, the ship while approaching numerous sailboats had sounded one or two short blast then five or more due to the nature of the sailboat operators can you imagine the confusion that would have created ?

I am confident that the intent of the ships sounding the one prolonged blast is to gain that attention from the other smaller and obscure sailboats and if not indeed wake them up then at least make them find their radios and / or pay attention and look at the situation.
 
If you say so.

But it's pretty clear that in the situation Mark describes the vessels are not obscured by a "bend" or "obstruction". And that their intentions are in doubt.

And those are the criteria I have always been taught as to when to use the single prolonged signal. (And its the way I have used it.) As well as being taught what are the proper circumstances to use the 5 or more signal.

I was taught this by people who had literally been on vessels ranging from nuclear subs to super tankers. So I would hope that between that and the fact that they teach the rules on a continuous basis they would have at least some idea what they were talking about when it comes to how and when the signals should be sounded.

But you never know.
 
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JDCAVE said:
I do not agree however with your assertion that Enterprise Channel isn't narrow:
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Jim;
I would love to sit in your KK cockpit with a Blue Buck and big old paper CHS 3461.
The first three elements I would be looking at for that route in a "slow" boat would be tide, wind and current. On Friday all three were in your favour, as was visibility.

"Narrow" is, in large part, a state of mind and I understand your perspective on that and respect it.

Narrow to me are (locally) Narrows Inlet, Cockburn Bay, Squitty Bay, Pirates Cove, Smugglers Cove, Hidden Basin and, if only because of currents, Dodd Narrows. Yes, Enterprise has kelp but there is still plenty of water under a +/- 5' draft through there. A key though is how much open water and visibility there is to asses things before the very short run through the tight part.

I'm wondering if you were apprehensive about going through there in the first place and just didn't plan far enough ahead or go through the mental "what ifs." We need to face like challenges but need to be as prepared as possible and maybe, just maybe that day was a good one to just go south around Trial Islands.

Nervousness can be a good thing but can also be just as crippling as over confidence and I think there is lots for all of us to think about in threads like this.

But what do I know, I don't have a vessel in my profile and it's unknown if I'm married or not.
:rofl:
 
Capt.Bill11 said:
If you say so.

But it's pretty clear that in the situation Mark describes the vessels are not obscured by a "bend" or "obstruction". And that their intentions are in doubt.

And those are the criteria I have always been taught as to when to use the single prolonged signal. (And its the way I have used it.) As well as being taught what are the proper circumstances to use the 5 or more signal.

I was taught this by people who had literally been on vessels ranging from nuclear subs to super tankers. So I would hope that between that and the fact that they teach the rules on a continuous basis they would have at least some idea what they were talking about when it comes to how and when the signals should be sounded.

But you never know.
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:iagree:
Right. He had the group of vessels in sight, thus, the "here I am" situation is not applicable.

If he was trying to warn those vessels of his presence and thought there was danger, 5 blasts is the correct signal.

I don't agree with the idea of 1 blast being quicker than 5 so it's OK to sound 1 blast. It can be done, of course, it's just not correct and could be confusing.
 
I'm speculating that Mark's observations are in his home waters of San Francisco Bay, where there are many RNAs. The ship is in a channel and restricted, even if it doesn't appear to be a channel unless a chart is consulted.

Rule 9 would apply. One long blast would certainly be effective to clear apparent traffic and warn unseen traffic.

Ships may also sound one long blast when leaving their berth. In the Navy, that meant when the last line was cast off. The merchant mariner often elects to wait until he is actually underway and progressing forward.
 
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Talking about ships and sound signals reminds me of coming up the BiggMiss late one night, or early one morning as the case was. I was in my 48 sporty cruising at a leisurely 8 knots or so. I was a few miles into S.W. pass not yet to the head of passes. I had forgotten to turn my VHFs volume back up, all three of them. Everyone else was asleep. My radar was on full forward, autopilot following my "safe track". Basically I was in the middle of the river, traffick was unusually slow that night. Next thing I know my flybridge is lit up like LasVegas. I immediately looked astern to see the bow of a HUGE ship behind me. Close. I turned my VHF up and called on 16 while giving him every bit of air my horns had in 5 shot bursts. The captain returned with "this is the cruise ship (forgot the name)" and politely asked me to take one side or the other as he needed the middle. I obliged. After the pass I asked why he didnt signal his intentions instead of setting my bridge on fire. His response,,,,I didnt want to wake the passengers!!!! This conversation was on VHF channell 16 so I asked if USCG NewOrleans sector had copied. They affirmed. I learned a lot from that encounter.
 
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