Whats wrong with Bayliners?

[markpierce]

Glad to see you're back, "Codger 2."

 

[Marin]

The Mercedes owner might disparage Toyotas but there's a lot of Toyotas on the road and for good reason!

I believe that for the most part you get what you pay for. Boats, vehicles, outboard motors, toasters, you name it. Of course you have to do sufficient research to determine if the reality of the item you're buying is the same as the advertising, image, and hype.

A number of years ago we bought a new Range Rover. We still have it and to date it has been the most trouble free and reliable vehicle I have ever owned starting with my first one in the late 1960s. This includes makes like VW, Aston Martin, BMW, Toyota, Ford, Austin Healey and a few others. Recently the Range Rover has been joined by a Subaru and a Ford pickup, both of them purchased new. So far so good on the newcomers but they've got a long way to go to better the reliability of the Range Rover. We buy a vehicle to fill a certain requirement, and since we buy what we feel is the absolute best vehicle on the market to meet that requirement at the time, we tend to keep them for a long, long time. So we'll see how the newbies stack up...

A high quality boat, by which I mean the quality of its materials, construction, systems design, systems components and workmanship, tends to command a higher than average price because genuinely higher quality costs more to produce. Even if the boat is used, this higher cost compared to similar boats with similar histories of operation and care remains.

Which is why a (insert year here) Grand Banks or Hatteras or deFever or Tollycraft or Krogen almost invariably costs more than a similar size Bayliner of the same vintage. Often a lot more.

This is not to say that Bayliners are bad boats or that Bayliner owners automatically can't have as good a cruising experience as the owners of more expensive makes. It means that the more expensive boats are better boats in terms of their quality. Maybe not in every single aspect of quality: maybe Bayliner used a better motor than Brand A, or maybe their hull layup was a bit better than Brand B.

But overall, I believe you get what you pay for, assuming you approach the whole boat or vehicle or toaster-buying thing intelligently.

 

[BandB]

Marin. Quality is often a perception. Also it's a single experience. And it's based on how a car or boat is maintained. Mercedes are expensive and known for requiring high maintenance. As to your Range Rover, well JD Power rates them among the best in performance and design. Among the best in powertrain quality. However, they give them average and below average in every other quality rating and below average in overall quality. This isn't arguing with your experience. Just stating people have different experiences.

Sometimes it's what one considers quality. For instance, in the boats you mentioned is quality the teak, the wood throughout or is it the low maintenance. Bayliner didn't go for teak. Well, neither does Hatteras. There are many very happy owners of Hyundai. Is it quality? Depends on how you judge. During it's first 80,000 to 100,000 miles it will cost less to maintain than a Mercedes or BMW. We have a couple of sports cars that we don't drive much but I venture to say if we drove them 20,000 miles a year they'd have their share of issues.

Ironically thinking just of Grand Banks. Some of the features that attract people and increase the price, which include the teak, the general finishing, the beauty, are the same features that often mean a lot of work on an older boat.

As you, I do believe quality costs, but I don't believe one necessarily gets it by paying a lot. I also believe in production methods contributing greatly to quality and that is where Bayliner excelled. As to Bayliner being cheaper for the same vintage being used as evidence it's poorer quality, I disagree. I think that is strictly evidence it cost considerably less initially and evidence it's out of production. The used pricing structure of any item is a combination of two factors. Original Selling Price and Depreciation. Depreciation is influence by many factors. Perceived quality in the market is one but except for vintage and antique items, being out of production is another.

If I'm going to judge quality, I must look at customer satisfaction. As shown in this thread, that is extremely high with Bayliner. Now, yes, it is judged based on expectations which are probably less than for a more expensive boat. But still it's a very strong element that can not be ignored.

 

[HiDHo]

Most of the maintenance on Mercedes is preventive maintenance which is a hard concept for the average driver. Example: taking your Mercedes in for a 60,000 mile PM and getting a bill for several hundreds of dollars when the car was driving and operating perfectly. But the check discovered that the motor mounts say where wearing out.
I owned a 240D back in the day that while under going the 80K check the horn was found not to be working, it was replaced at no charge and packaged up to be sent to Mercedes engineers to find the fault because Mercedes said at that mileage it should have been working. Most if not all other mfg would toss it and charge you for a new horn. The concept of buying a car that built to last a lifetime is not the American way of car ownership.
The 240D was my one and only Mercedes, too slow, moved to a 1965 Porsche 356SC which I do wish I had kept for a lifetime.

 

[Great Laker]

Another way of looking at quality is "fit for purpose." If a boat (or any of its systems individually) fits the purpose and expectation you have for its use, it has quality in your mind.

For example, if you buy a boat with an "X" brand engine because you need or expect it to run 10,000 hours (assuming regular maintenance and no abuse) with no breakdowns, and it lasts that long without breakdowns, you would say the engine has good quality. If the engine brakes down sooner, you would probably say it has poor quality.

So, in this regard, quality is not absolute. It is relative to fit for purpose.

To declare any boat has poor quality without regard to a specific fit for purpose is meaningless.

 

[BandB]

HiDHo

I'm not anti Mercedes. Now you had a diesel which is very different than their gas models. We own a Mercedes SUV and have had no problems with it. Now we do have very few miles on it.

We've honestly had no problems though with any of our cars. Perhaps maintaining them well is why. Or just lucky.

 

[Codger2]

As you, I do believe quality costs, but I don't believe one necessarily gets it by paying a lot.

Amen! Although I believe Grand banks to be a good boat, I do not think it's a great boat. (IMO) Just because it costs more, doesn't mean that the quality is that much superior to a lot of other brands. Grand banks was among the first recreational trawlers offered to the public and its success was almost guaranteed. Like Xerox and copiers, it dominated the so called trawler market for years. It doesn't anymore.

For years, I was brain washed by competing marketing & dealer firms as to the inferior quality of the Bayliner 4588 & 4788. When I had the opportunity to actually cruise on one, I was amazed at the overall quality and performance of the boat. No, it's not a boat that status seekers buy but it is a boat that's extremely well made, that is affordable by a large majority of cruising couples & remains on the best seller list of brokerages throughout the country.

 

[pilothouse king]

Amen! Although I believe Grand banks to be a good boat, I do not think it's a great boat. (IMO) Just because it costs more, doesn't mean that the quality is that much superior to a lot of other brands. Grand banks was among the first recreational trawlers offered to the public and its success was almost guaranteed. Like Xerox and copiers, it dominated the so called trawler market for years. It doesn't anymore.

For years, I was brain washed by competing marketing & dealer firms as to the inferior quality of the Bayliner 4588 & 4788. When I had the opportunity to actually cruise on one, I was amazed at the overall quality and performance of the boat. No, it's not a boat that status seekers buy but it is a boat that's extremely well made, that is affordable by a large majority of cruising couples & remains on the best seller list of brokerages throughout the country.

Couldn't had said it any better myself!! This might mean I'm an " codger" too. Heck I was one (and ornery too!!) at 30! I sought out older people for wisdom and listened. Saved a lot of errors. More young people should give it a try vs. getting on Wikipedia and starting arguments.

 

[Scott and Malina]

I posted this in another thread but in case the original poster didn't see it, FWIW....

We have met several couples over the years who have Bayliners and have done the Inside Passage up and back, some several times. I would venture to say there are a lot more Bayliner owners who have done the Passage than Nordhavn owners.

Bayliners suffer from a reputation that stems partly from their cheap, entry-level trailer boats. The other source of Bayliner myths has to do with owners, not the boats.

Bayliner very successfully figured out how to make boats that were priced less than many other production cruising boats of the same size and purpose. And when you price something lower than the competition, you tend to get more people buying it. People who couldn't afford a Grand Banks, for example, could afford a similar-size Bayliner.

So you had people getting into a relatively large cruising boat who perhaps didn't really have the interest in all the details of cruising that someone willing to plunk down the price of a Grand Banks had. They just wanted to get out on the water with their friends and families and have a rousing good time.

So the uninteresting (to them) things like the Colregs and the details of proper navigation and radio use and the effect of their wakes on other boats were not things they paid much attention to. To them, the boat was all about having a good time.

When you encounter boaters who are inconsiderate, uneducated in boat operations, unskilled, careless or all four you also notice the boat they are using. And when it seems there are a lot of these less-than-ideal boaters driving Bayliners, the annoyance one feels upon encountering them gets transferred to the boat make. So..... Bayliners must be crappy boats because they are always driven by crappy boaters, right?

Sure, Bayliner was able to price their boats very competitively by using not the most expensive hardware and using production techniques more tailored to assembly-line production than those used by Grand Banks or Fleming or Krogen.

But the fact remains that in the hands of a competent, courteous boater, a Bayliner cruiser is no less effective at providing great value and experiences to its owner than a Grand Banks, Fleming, or Nordhavn.

Forced into a choice, I would take a well-looked after Bayliner cruiser over a similar size, older Taiwan trawler like a CHB with uncertain care and even more uncertain construction quality, knowing what I know about the manufacturing processes used in Taiwan in the 70s and 80s.

Well said friend...

Scott and Malina

 

[bcarli]

Thanks to everyone who responded. This spring we will be returning to the PNW and we will be actively shopping for a Bayliner 4588.

 

[eyschulman]

A friend of mine a part owner of a busy all service yard who is a working expert regarding boats owns a Bayliner and speaks well of it. Since his job includes many repair evaluations for individuals and insurance companies he gets to see how things are put together and what brakes and what does not.

 

[Marin]

This spring we will be returning to the PNW and we will be actively shopping for a Bayliner 4588.

The important word in your sentence is not "Bayliner" but "PNW." No matter what brand of boat a person may buy up here, the cruising experience will be superb, partcularly if one likes the northwest weather.

When you're the only boat in the anchorage and the eagles are flying, the kingfishers are diving, the otters are playing and the mountains are out, the brand of boat one is on is totally irrelvant. What's relevant is the fact that you're there, having an experience that will stay with you forever.

 

[bcarli]

Marin
You are 100% correct................
thanks

 

[sunchaser]

Thanks to everyone who responded. This spring we will be returning to the PNW and we will be actively shopping for a Bayliner 4588.

There are two 49 Meridians for sale in Seattle area. One was at the Seattle Boat Show. It has been under cover always and owned by a finicky maintenance oriented freak who -gasp- insisted on doing servicing by the book even though the boat racked up less than 100 hours per year. Cummins 330s and sparkling.

Although you are looking at a smaller 4588, the 49Ms are worth a look, a look you won't regret.

 

[Robster_in_edmonds]

A few important differences between the 4588 and the 1997 or later 4788/Meridian 490: Hino engines vs Cummins (both are great engines, Hinos can be a little harder to find an experienced mechanic and parts); 4588 had some wood coring above the water line (look for soft deck and flybridge); 4588 has exterior wood (pretty but more maintenance). We love our 4788, but doesn't everyone love the boat they own?

 

[FlyWright]

A few important differences between the 4588 and the 1997 or later 4788/Meridian 490: Hino engines vs Cummins (both are great engines, Hinos can be a little harder to find an experienced mechanic and parts); 4588 had some wood coring above the water line (look for soft deck and flybridge); 4588 has exterior wood (pretty but more maintenance). We love our 4788, but doesn't everyone love the boat they own?

The 4588 also has a smaller cockpit, as I recall. My friend has a 4788 with the Hinos, but maybe it's an oddball 4788.

 

[River Cruiser]

Another difference is the 45s have prop pockets the 47s do not, so the 45s have a little less draft.

 

[ksanders]

There are two 49 Meridians for sale in Seattle area. One was at the Seattle Boat Show. It has been under cover always and owned by a finicky maintenance oriented freak who -gasp- insisted on doing servicing by the book even though the boat racked up less than 100 hours per year. Cummins 330s and sparkling.

Although you are looking at a smaller 4588, the 49Ms are worth a look, a look you won't regret.

Sunchaser and Rob both bring up a Very good point here, one you should not overlook.


The Bayliner Pilothouse series of boats started in the early 1980's, using boat building techniques for the most part that were fairly typical of the era.

In approx 1993 the 45' version was discontinued and basically the exact same boat only 2' longer in the salon was introduced. The 4788 also marked a huge shift in construction materials. Where the 45' version had balsa cored decks like the other boats of its Era, the 4788 offered foam cored decks. This completely eliminates one of the major issues that vintage boats suffer from, being soft decks.

In 1996 The cummins engines were made standard, replacing the Hino engines of earlier boats. Nothing wrong with the hino engine, some even prefer it, but the Cummins engine clearly offers a better marine support network.

Some time later and I do not know when exactly the solid teak interior was replaced with in my opinion a not as nice teak interior with white cabinets. The same with the aft bulkhead. My 2001 model has an alumanium aft bulkhead and my neighbors 1994 has a teak looking bulkhead and in my opinion a better looking interior with more teak. But on the plus side the newer boats sport solid surface countertops replacing the formica that the older boats offered.

When Bayliner discontinued the 4788 in 2002 and Meridian mysteriously started selling the same exact same boats in 2003 the price went up, but for the most part the boats didn't change much. I've seen a 2008 model (last year built) and except for being newer I didn't see much difference.

So, what you have is a production run spanning 25 years and a whole bunch of boats. During that time the marine world evolved and so did the Bayliner Pilothouse.