menzies
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The point we were making is that it is law to have have a copy on board.
It should also be read using those quiet evenings on board
Who had right of way?
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
The point we were making is that it is law to have have a copy on board.
It should also be read using those quiet evenings on board
rclarke246
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All this talk about the "tonnage rule" and avoiding collisions, reminded me of the old standby text book.
Please go to Amazon.com and read the reviews of this book. Trust me, you'll be delighted.
https://www.amazon.com/Avoid-Huge-S...1&keywords=avoiding+big+ships#customerReviews
Thanks for directing me to these thoughtful reviews! Funniest stuff I’ve ever read! Can’t wait for the sequel: How to Avoid a Train. ROTFLMAO!
PJHoffnet
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One thing I find interesting is that the man at the helm of the sailboat said he saw them far off and watched them close. Granted, there are defined roles for the give way and stand on vessel in the COLREGS, but it also states that you must take action to avoid a collision even if it breaks the rules (typically as a last resort). I also don't see anything about the sailboat sounding the danger signal (five short blasts).
Crash survivor: 'All of a sudden, his boat was sitting on top of our boat' - Capital Gazette
Crash survivor: 'All of a sudden, his boat was sitting on top of our boat' - Capital Gazette
twistedtree
Guru
It amazes me the excuses people will make, and rationalizations they will make to defend and perpetuate their ignorance. Is learning this stuff (the Colregs) really that hard or painful? Do you really care that little about your responsibility as a captain? I don't understand why everyone on this forum wouldn't be enthusiastically trying to learn all this. Instead we are seeing that almost nobody knows even the most basic rules, and many will make every excuse possible to justify not knowing them.
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
When certain people infer or call people ignorant or stupid just because they may have a broader picture that the rules are not always cut and dry, you will loose some folks And even some of these fine folks that's locked into their positions have changed their locked in positions between night and day.
You loose objective and open minded people willing to waste their time typing on these venues for what in return. Not everyone here is a novice and a first time boat owner and boater. And some folks have an outside life that's much more rewarding too then arguing on the internet.
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markpierce
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Never thought otherwise. My message implied one must become familiar with the Colregs because there is little/no time to consult when a collision is imminent.
ranger58sb
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Yes, but... as I said in the other thread (I think; somewhere, at least...)
Just because the article doesn't say it, it doesn't mean the sailor didn't make the appropriate sound signals or attempts to avoid collision. Reporters don't always capture everything they hear, they don't always include everything they hear into their submission, editors may or may not stick their oar in... etc.
IOW, not enough info to judge.
-Chris
JDCAVE
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I’m no maritime lawyer (although I’ve had the privilege of having considerable discussion with one on this very topic) but...
I think when you find yourself in court the legal parties involved will make their arguments and the judge(s) find judgement based solely on the referenced Colregs, and not with your contention that “the rules are not always cut and dry.”
Jim
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
Please read what I wrote in response to the quoted inquiry. As it relates to this discussion on this thread, my reply was in response to this comment in particular. I gave up attempting to discuss anything when the turds began to be repeated.
That is a pretty broad brush statement . One participant in particular that has beat this dead horse of knowing the absolute law has hedged his bets and changed several times on his own accord.
Check this out, from a professed expert, just on this page. This is called backtracking.
Not a single person on this thread can say with absolute confidence what a ruling would be in a court pertaining any and all accidents of two or more vessels simply because no two accidents are the same.
A late friend Capt. Bill Brogdon was an expert witness and flew around the country to testify after thoroughly investigating cases himself. I spent some time with him and learned that the written rules could not always be applied to a ton of cases. I stand by my position but will not argue all day about this as so many have done here.
Capt. Bill Brogdon, Dies at 72
BruceK
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I hope the late Capt. Brogdon was not suggesting commonsense be a component of rule interpretation and vessel operation at times of risk of a collision.We just can`t have outlandish extreme views like that expressed here.
Especially if we start with the concluded view the sailboat was at fault because, well, it is a sailboat. And then search for, invent, and attribute aspects of its conduct to support that view.
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
I hope the late Capt. Brogdon was not suggesting commonsense be a component of rule interpretation and vessel operation at times of risk of a collision.We just can`t have outlandish extreme views like that expressed here.
Especially if we start with the concluded view the sailboat was at fault because, well, it is a sailboat. And then search for, invent, and attribute aspects of its conduct to support that view.
Well the common sense portion that he would tell me was that the big boat had the right of way, even though you may be right to your rights. Sometimes that ended up to be dead to rights you know. And he was a big sailor too, racing one of the prettiest Lightning sailboats in the water. But he continued to say "Challenge the big guy at your own risk, no matter if your sails full of hot air."
Talking about reading books, this is easy reading from Capt. Bill.
https://www.amazon.com/Boat-Navigat...37957/ref=mt_hardcover?_encoding=UTF8&me=&qid=
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Islanddreamer
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Almost sorry I started the original thread. When I saw the first reports and pictures, my thought was not right away, but who had to change underwear after that. Happily no one was hurt. The lawyers will figure it out.
Having said that, I can say that on a number of occasions we’ve taken quick action to avoid a collision, with many of them coming from vessels overtaking us. The COLREGS would support me completely as an overtaken vessel has the top priority, but is easier to avoid the accident than tell the salvage company and USCG that I was right. As with raising children, you have to decide which “hill you want to die on”, and the first pages of the rules state that you should do everything to avoid a collision.
Having said that, I can say that on a number of occasions we’ve taken quick action to avoid a collision, with many of them coming from vessels overtaking us. The COLREGS would support me completely as an overtaken vessel has the top priority, but is easier to avoid the accident than tell the salvage company and USCG that I was right. As with raising children, you have to decide which “hill you want to die on”, and the first pages of the rules state that you should do everything to avoid a collision.
twistedtree
Guru
NOBODY is saying one should stand a course to the point of a collision. And as others have pointed out. that's clearly stated in the Colrags. Once a collision occurs, BOTH parties are at fault for letting it happen regardless of who is stand-on and who is give-way. So at the end of the day your job is to do whatever it takes to not hit another boat.
What I think is irresponsible is to not know all the rules of operation that lead up to that last ditch, "do whatever it takes" action, and substitute then with "do whatever seems right to you".
Nobody is born knowing all this stuff. We all have to learn it. And I'm sure nobody here knows it all. I sure don't. So we all need to look back and refresh and relearn. That's why you're supposed to have a copy of the Colregs on board.
But it's pretty clear from this thread that even the most basic rules aren't understood by many. Ok, not a problem, just open up the book, read through, and refresh your memory or learn a few new things. That would be so much more productive than defending ignorance.
What I think is irresponsible is to not know all the rules of operation that lead up to that last ditch, "do whatever it takes" action, and substitute then with "do whatever seems right to you".
Nobody is born knowing all this stuff. We all have to learn it. And I'm sure nobody here knows it all. I sure don't. So we all need to look back and refresh and relearn. That's why you're supposed to have a copy of the Colregs on board.
But it's pretty clear from this thread that even the most basic rules aren't understood by many. Ok, not a problem, just open up the book, read through, and refresh your memory or learn a few new things. That would be so much more productive than defending ignorance.
ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
What I find absolutly amazing is that a bunch of power boaters are trying to justify why it’s OK to run over a sail boat.
All you have to do is look at the photograph of the accident to realize that the sailboat was broadsided by the power boat at high speed.
Anybody that has spent actual time on the water knows that when one boat is crossing the path of another boat that the boat who’s path is being crossed only has to change course by a few degrees to avoid collission, where the boat that is doing the crossing would have to make a huge course change.
Anybody that has spent any actual time behind the helm would also understand and apreciate that sail boats cannot make big course changes without both changing the rudder, and changing the sail angle. They would also understand that a sail boat cannot increase or decrease speed without either adding or dropping sail.
An experienced mariner would also look at the photo, and deduce that the boat that ran over the sail boat did so at a very high rate of speed, and would based on their experience also deduce from the twin outboards, and design of the power boat, that the power boat is a high speed, highly manuverable craft.
A experienced mariner would not need the coloregs to tell them that a more manuverable boat has all the power to avoid a collision where a less manuverable vessel has much less ability, and that common sense seamanship would dictate that the more manuverable vessel just slightly adjust their course, and or slightly adjust their throttle settings which would have avoided the collision.
But... I suppose thats why we have to have coloregs... So that we can have a document to tell people what they should already know, and what an experienced mariner has seen with their own eyes, and understands.
Guys... analyzing the accident photograph makes it impossible to justify the powerboats actions, and misintrepreting the coloregs will not help make that justification.
All you have to do is look at the photograph of the accident to realize that the sailboat was broadsided by the power boat at high speed.
Anybody that has spent actual time on the water knows that when one boat is crossing the path of another boat that the boat who’s path is being crossed only has to change course by a few degrees to avoid collission, where the boat that is doing the crossing would have to make a huge course change.
Anybody that has spent any actual time behind the helm would also understand and apreciate that sail boats cannot make big course changes without both changing the rudder, and changing the sail angle. They would also understand that a sail boat cannot increase or decrease speed without either adding or dropping sail.
An experienced mariner would also look at the photo, and deduce that the boat that ran over the sail boat did so at a very high rate of speed, and would based on their experience also deduce from the twin outboards, and design of the power boat, that the power boat is a high speed, highly manuverable craft.
A experienced mariner would not need the coloregs to tell them that a more manuverable boat has all the power to avoid a collision where a less manuverable vessel has much less ability, and that common sense seamanship would dictate that the more manuverable vessel just slightly adjust their course, and or slightly adjust their throttle settings which would have avoided the collision.
But... I suppose thats why we have to have coloregs... So that we can have a document to tell people what they should already know, and what an experienced mariner has seen with their own eyes, and understands.
Guys... analyzing the accident photograph makes it impossible to justify the powerboats actions, and misintrepreting the coloregs will not help make that justification.
Islanddreamer
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Exactly. We weren’t there. Here is a local article quote:
“We are THANKFUL everyone was safe in that boating accident that's been so widely shared today on FB....
Here's a statement from our friends at Chesapeake Boating Club...
This morning (August 17) at approximately 11:30 a.m, a member of the Chesapeake Boating Club was under sail on one of the Club’s J/105s when they were struck by a 35-foot powerboat. The J/105 was struck amidships on the starboard side, with the powerboat coming to a stop on top of the sailboat. Thankfully, no one was injured.
Our members were operating the boat in a safe manner, on a day with clear visibility and 10-12 knots of breeze. The J/105 crew attempted to hail the approaching boat prior to the collision, otherwise signal, and take action to avoid the collision.
We would like to thank the U.S. Coast Guard Mid-Atlanticand Maryland Department of Natural Resources for their rapid response to the scene #sailng #safety #chesapeake”
High Wire
Guru
Both boats look in surprisingly good condition for a high speed crash. I would have thought the powerboat would have punched through or continued over the sailboat. Anyone else thinking the same?
psneeld
Guru
If the sailboat was rail down to starboard like I believe the sailboat captain said in a later article...it may not have been high speed at all.
The powerboater may have slid on easily and the sailboat righted back up as the weight became more centered and the wind spilled from the sails.
I have pulled a boat out of the marsh plenty of times that slid right up and over a fairly high sod bank and were going not all that fast. You could tell the fast movers as they were hundreds of feet into the marsh with a telltale prop furrow through the sod.
The powerboater may have slid on easily and the sailboat righted back up as the weight became more centered and the wind spilled from the sails.
I have pulled a boat out of the marsh plenty of times that slid right up and over a fairly high sod bank and were going not all that fast. You could tell the fast movers as they were hundreds of feet into the marsh with a telltale prop furrow through the sod.
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Never Insist.
Wow, I got dizzy reading all the opinions on who has the right of way. Most of the opinions are true in a vacuum or textbook sense. My own rule has served me well (knock on wood) for 52 years on the water....know who has the right of way long before you get too close, but never insist on your right of way, because the ultimate rule is to avoid collisions. With big commercial vessels in tight quarters...I simply stay as far away as possible as long as it does not endanger my vessel....then I get on the radio and have a chat. If that doesn't work be sure to take photos and call a good maritime attorney.
Wow, I got dizzy reading all the opinions on who has the right of way. Most of the opinions are true in a vacuum or textbook sense. My own rule has served me well (knock on wood) for 52 years on the water....know who has the right of way long before you get too close, but never insist on your right of way, because the ultimate rule is to avoid collisions. With big commercial vessels in tight quarters...I simply stay as far away as possible as long as it does not endanger my vessel....then I get on the radio and have a chat. If that doesn't work be sure to take photos and call a good maritime attorney.
The basic rules really aren't that hard to learn, and one can just take a on line boating course and learn enough to operate reasonably safe. Sure, there's a lot of nitty gritty that you won't remember or ever need, but rarely needed.
I could make an argument that if there's any doubt just don't get to the point where you have to make a split decision.
My biggest fear is the drunk, or the ego person that has to prove their faster or better and whiz by my boat at high speed, way too close, wake me just for the fun of it.
Had a drunk come by yesterday, still on plane in the marina area, passed within 30 ft of the dock I was mored to, waked all of us and acted like it didn't matter. When confronted by one of the locals who knew him with a "no wake" comment, he was an absolute AH, saying it's fine and we don't need to worry about it and screw off.
He then fell off his boat when tying to the dock. I was concerned that he was going to come over and confront us, which would have been ugly. I have zero tolerance for such behavior and wouldn't hesitate to be forceful if needed. We don't need these types.
A second worse person, is the one that just doesn't pay attention, and from all the reports, seems like the power boat guy fits this category.
I could make an argument that if there's any doubt just don't get to the point where you have to make a split decision.
My biggest fear is the drunk, or the ego person that has to prove their faster or better and whiz by my boat at high speed, way too close, wake me just for the fun of it.
Had a drunk come by yesterday, still on plane in the marina area, passed within 30 ft of the dock I was mored to, waked all of us and acted like it didn't matter. When confronted by one of the locals who knew him with a "no wake" comment, he was an absolute AH, saying it's fine and we don't need to worry about it and screw off.
He then fell off his boat when tying to the dock. I was concerned that he was going to come over and confront us, which would have been ugly. I have zero tolerance for such behavior and wouldn't hesitate to be forceful if needed. We don't need these types.
A second worse person, is the one that just doesn't pay attention, and from all the reports, seems like the power boat guy fits this category.
Scratchnsaw
Senior Member
Someone was right or can we say someone was wrong, and someone is dead to rights no matter what the so called rules to the road states. Its not cut and dry. Someone screwed up in this fishing boat and pleasure yacht collision.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...498804841.html
Its not cut and dry. Someone screwed up in this fishing boat and pleasure yacht collision. https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...498804841.html
psneeld
Guru
Heck ......had a sailboat almost TBone me today in the Chesapeake.
He was over taking me by about 2 knots. Didn't notice him till he was abeam me and his leeway had him on a collision course for sure.
He was upwind of me on a close haul about 40 feet abeam and would have paralleled my course except for the leeway....he only could wind up closer unless he fell off behind me which would have been easy for a very long time.
But he pressed on till even I had to make a radical turn away from him but not so much I didn't keep enough advance if he fell off behind me.
Finally he was just about bow to bow and fell off which meant he was 90 degrees and 20 feet or so away. He missed my stern by about 5 to10 feet.
Being the stand on vessel I couldn't believe he couldn't fall off behind me a tad sooner or slack a sail to slow and fall behind when it got really tight.
Just another clueless sailor who pressed his ,"I am a sailing vessel" mentality into extremis with a 6 knot powerboat.
He was over taking me by about 2 knots. Didn't notice him till he was abeam me and his leeway had him on a collision course for sure.
He was upwind of me on a close haul about 40 feet abeam and would have paralleled my course except for the leeway....he only could wind up closer unless he fell off behind me which would have been easy for a very long time.
But he pressed on till even I had to make a radical turn away from him but not so much I didn't keep enough advance if he fell off behind me.
Finally he was just about bow to bow and fell off which meant he was 90 degrees and 20 feet or so away. He missed my stern by about 5 to10 feet.
Being the stand on vessel I couldn't believe he couldn't fall off behind me a tad sooner or slack a sail to slow and fall behind when it got really tight.
Just another clueless sailor who pressed his ,"I am a sailing vessel" mentality into extremis with a 6 knot powerboat.
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Someone was right or can we say someone was wrong, and someone is dead to rights no matter what the so called rules to the road states.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...498804841.html
People screw up, they make mistakes. The only thing that prevents more accidents on the road and water is that most take two people screwing up and so when any of us do make mistakes, someone else bails us out. I'd say the collision above is like 90% of them, both made mistakes, just one more egregious than the other.
Somebody screwed up for sure. How does a 332’ yacht and a 65’ charter boat collide? The charter boat was just leaving SD so the crew should have been fresh.
Here’s what the USCG put out.
https://content.govdelivery.com/acc...86GDBbeLOzLipMrbGpNtPln54zVnK43hnO0rD1fKh0yrM
Here’s what the USCG put out.
https://content.govdelivery.com/acc...86GDBbeLOzLipMrbGpNtPln54zVnK43hnO0rD1fKh0yrM
AlaskaProf
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As I tell anyone at the helm on my boat: "Yes, you have the right-of-way, but assume he doesn't know that."
A sailboat beating to weather doesn't want to give up any ground that is hard won. Sailboat helmsman (any that have ever raced anyway) would not consider 15 feet a close pass. He just ducked you when he knew he had to. On a powerboat you can simply turn the wheel to go where you want. Not so on a sailboat. This is exactly why they have the right of way (in many situations).
If you have never sailed, or raced a sailboat, you may be forgiven for thinking this is close. The reality for sailors is: any close maneuver that doesn't result in a touch, is only close, not "too close". Racing rules allow for protests, when there is an actual collision (touch). Many, (or all) sailors, bring the racing rules to casual sailing. When you see a sail boat (not under power) in your "stand on" zone, always think they will treat a mere power boater as a second class opponent, with no rights. whatsoever.
psneeld
Guru
I have raced sailboats and manuevered commercial vessels in tight situations ..I understand the concept of "close" when necessary.
Had I not turned, he would have hit me..... That was unacceptable.
There was no need for a ten foot miss in completely open water.
He just didn't do what he should of done.
Which I think is the main topic in the thread.
Had I not turned, he would have hit me..... That was unacceptable.
There was no need for a ten foot miss in completely open water.
He just didn't do what he should of done.
Which I think is the main topic in the thread.
