Windlass, not a clue!!!

[Portuguese]

Gentlemen

Having in mind that:
·******** Rainha Jannota is 40.2" on Water Line, and displaces 55000 lbs
·******** She will be mostly at anchor with a crew of two*in the mid 50's
·******** There will be 300 of 3/8 chain pulling, most likely, one 135 lbs Bruce
·******** A second anchor set up, 120 lbs Danforth with 60 3/8 chain with 5/8 rope
·******** Windlass choices are: 1000W Lewmar H3, Maxwell HRC 10-10, Maxwell VWC 1500

What would you pick for the conditions above and do you have better choices than the ones above. I am also open for ideas or recommendations that lead to save cash. This last one is flowing out very quick!!!!

Please let me know what I really need! My little experience does not cover this issue properly

Thank you for your help and effort

*

 

[Codger2]

You may want to research the Muir 2500* or possibly another size. Muir is one of the worlds great anchor manufactureres but not as well known as the others you have listed. My windlass is a Muir 1200 but my boat is only 32 feet. (29.6' at the WL.)

Atlantic 2500 -


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 13th of October 2011 08:45:36 AM

 

[Woodsong]

http://www.imtra.com/product/anchoring_systems/lofrans/lofrans_horizontal_electric_winches/falkon.htm

 

[Phil Fill]

I would not go with a*vertical feed, like the Atlantic*2500*but a*hoizontal drum,*over the drum,*that drops*chain straight down into the locker.** If we have to replace our Windless I would go with a straight drum*which does not require a locker.**They look ugly but that is what most of the commercial boats use.

Also make sure you locker is big high enough for*the chain pile, and/or the pile does not fall over.* The locker might be your limiting factor for the amount of chain.*We have a hydraulic bow thruster so the windless would be hydraulic.* Are you still planning on having hydraulic on the boat?

*

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-- Edited by Phil Fill on Thursday 13th of October 2011 10:14:22 AM


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Thursday 13th of October 2011 10:19:42 AM

 

[skipperdude]

I have a hydraulic drum type on my boat.

If you are going to have hydraulics . I'm with Willy.

What he said.

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 13th of October 2011 10:32:18 AM

 

[Conrad]

We just installed a Maxwell HRC 10-8 and love it. *(The -8 is for 5/16 chain while the -10 is for the 3/8 that you are planning on using.) It works very well, and although it is a horizontal windlass it drops the chain & rode directly into the chain locker.*

We went with that model as we have a chain/line combo and the HRC handles both with no fuss or bother. With straight chain you have other options. The Muir or Lofrans, for example, (or other Maxwell) are good options for straight chain. I've heard mixed reviews on the Lewmars. Of course if money is no object the Lighthouse models are considered to be about the best by Practical Sailor and others.

Whatever you go with I would heartily recommend a remote helm switch for either single handing or when inexperienced crew is on board. And up and down control.

 

[sunchaser]

My Maxwell VWC 2200 has worked fine on an all chain rode*on a similar weight vessel. Your anchor has more weight than mine so you'd likely need a size or two*up. Maxwell has a selection chart on their website. DO NOT undersize your windlass to save money. Plug in your chain size and anchor weight for each of the*windlass types.

For two anchors to be set up for immediate deploy, you'll need a double drum or two separate vertical windlasses and a separated chain/rope locker. A separate vertical windlass is a luxury, with two hawse holes you can get by with one vertical windlass.You'll just need to monkey around with the chain to go from one anchor to the* other. My spare Fortress anchor has never seen the bottom and I hope it never does. With your big anchor you'll never drag so a spare IMHO is only required if you lose your main.

Be sure you get the electrics right regarding cable size for your run length. With 24 V the cable would be smaller. If your vessel is 12V you'd need a dedicated inverter, not a big deal just $$.

What you are wanting to do is pretty standard stuff. The windlass supplier and install yard should be capable of answering all your questions and guarantee all will work correctly- if not, run.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Thursday 13th of October 2011 10:57:31 AM

 

[Marin]

Portuguese wrote:<br style="font-size:9pt;color:#000000;font-family:Verdana;" />
What would you pick for the conditions above and do you have better choices than the ones above.

We replaced the no-name horizontal windlass that came with the boat with a new Lofrans Tigres.* This windlass, while sized for boats like the GB36 and GB42, is probably too small for your purposes given the anchor weights you are talking about.* But based on our experience wtih the Lofrans, and the make's reputation, I would most likely go with one of their larger windlasses were we shopping for a new windlass for a boat the size of yours and the high anchor weight you are considering.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 13th of October 2011 11:53:44 AM

 

[Codger2]

Conrad wrote:
We went with that model as we have a chain/line combo and the HRC handles both with no fuss or bother. With straight chain you have other options. The Muir or Lofrans, for example, (or other Maxwell) are good options for straight chain.

******* My Muir 1200VRC (Vertlcal Rope & Chain) handles rope & chain well. It also has a "zerk fitting" for frequent greasing. (Not a big thing but grease does seem to cut down on the corrosion that all (unused) windlasses suffer from.)

I believe most windlass manufacturers make a good product. If they didn't they wouldn't last long in this market.

*

 

[FF]

There will be 300 of 3/8 chain pulling, most likely, one 135 lbs Bruce

· A second anchor set up, 120 lbs Danforth with 60 3/8 chain with 5/8 rope

I think the 3/8 chain selection is too weak.light.

7/16 or even 1/2 high test would allow better sleeping at night.

displaces 55000 lbs, will surge hard in certain conditions.

 

[Portuguese]

Guys

Thank you all for your opinions,

FF

I had to go electric because I could not find a reliable professional to rig up a hydraulic system. Apart from that I am concern and confused as some Windlass brands request the tackle weight multiplied by 3, to be 1/3 of the max capacity of the windlass.
Having said that, I see the requirements for my boat like this.
ANCHOR + Chain
3/8" calibrated chain: 300' x 0.64 lbs = 192 lbs + 65 lbs Anchor = 257 x 3 = 771
Windlass Capacity:
Ground Tackle x 3 = 771 x 3 = 2313 lbs max pull. Based on these calculations, the options are:
MUIR: Atlantic 2500 Vertical, Horizontal automatic freefall HFF 2500, Horizontal HR 2500 Cheetah (most popular, expensive)
Lofrans: Horizontal Lofrans Falkon (not too expensive but hard to get parts)
Maxwell: Horizontal HRC 2200 or HRC 3500, Vertical VWC 2500 (best price so far)
Ideal: Ideal Horizontal Size 4 (too expensive and heavy)

Any more advise?

 

[sunchaser]

Port* -* Maybe it is too early for me, but how does a 65# anchor figure into your calculations?

 

[Portuguese]

The 65# comes from a table of Burce Anchors and it is related to LWL/DISP/Beam. They said that for a calm day, wind below 20 knts, 20 kg is ok. For winds above 20knt up to 45 30 Kg is ok...so....

I hope this is correct!

 

[sunchaser]

Port - But you are using a 135# anchor, so that is what must be used in the*lift calculations, not 65#. Are you attempting to select an anchor too so your initial 135# was just a throw out?


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 14th of October 2011 08:25:23 AM

 

[Phil Fill]

The original 135 lbs anchor sounded high for your size boat?* 65 lbs sound more like it looking at the anchor charts.*

 

[Portuguese]

Guys I am sorry...135# was a miscalculation. I multiplied 30 kg by 2.2 twice...don't know why...The recommended size is 65# or 30 kg

Sorry for that

 

[sunchaser]

Port - So lets start over. For whatever it is worth, my similar sized vessel has a 2200 Maxwell, 3/8 chain and a 30kg Bruce. It all works. No*downside to*going bigger on the entire system, just more $$. Why so big a Danforth? Why not a Fortress you can keep in its bag until you feel you need it?

 

[Larry M]

Portuguese wrote:

...The recommended size is 65# or 30 kg...

*Port:* I would go with a bigger primary anchor.* Most anchor guides only look at boat length.* With your displacement*(55,000 lb) and wind-age, I would consider going up to an 80 to 100 lb anchor.*

 

[Marin]

Port--- One thing to keep in mind regarding the Bruce: in test after test over many, many years, the Bruce consistently has one of the lowest if not THE lowest holding power of all the designs tested. Yes, it sets fast in most bottoms and will reset fast--- sometimes. I don't know the kinds of bottoms, winds, etc. you anticipate encountering, but if holding power under higher pressures is going to be important, I suggest that you check into other anchor designs. While the Bruce is the most popular anchor among powerboaters in this area (PNW), which is one reason we initially bought one, boaters up here typically don't encounter winds at anchor that are all that strong. We don't get the big, exposed, windy anchorages one gets in the southwestern Pacific, for example. But, depending on the bottom makeup, when the wind does kick up, a Bruce will let go before a lot of other designs. This was our experience and has been the experience of a number of other boaters we know in the area.

 

[Portuguese]

Guys:

Thank you all for your prompt answers and points of view. T really appreciate your help.
Sunchaser; Please let me know how much chain you have. A Fortress in Brazil is like gold. It is expensive because is imported and people dive to get a free one, if you catch my drift, at least the small ones.
Larry; as a matter of fact, to be on safe side, I was thinking about*raising a notch on anchor size, that would put me in the 80 lbs territory.
Marin: We dont enter inland with boats in Brazil. There are only one or two places worth visiting, away from the coast weather effects. We stay mostly in open bays, where the wind comes to null between 10:00 and 14:00. Other than that it blows from 15 up to 30 knts average, easy. In the summer time is a Northeast wind, in the winter time (from May to October) is South/Southeast. The bottom is mostly sand or shale. Every boat, sail or power has a Bruce maybe because of the marketing done is the past. However, every now and then I here complain about its capacity of staying on hold. The ones here, who dont like them, use Danforth.

P.


-- Edited by Portuguese on Friday 14th of October 2011 12:47:50 PM

 

[sunchaser]

Port*- I carry 300 feet of chain. My 30 kg Bruce has held securely in 35 knots on a 5: 1 scope. If I lost the 30 KG I'd go up a size or two to whatever would fit. Su Inglis es bueno


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 14th of October 2011 12:58:17 PM

 

[dwhatty]

sunchaser wrote:
*Su Inglis es bueno



-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 14th of October 2011 12:58:17 PM

Your Spanish may be bueno but I think that they speak Portuguese in Brazil.

 

[sunchaser]

Yes I know that but my Portuguese is no bueno and I bet Port's*Espanol is perfecto like his Inglis.

 

[Marin]

Portuguese wrote:
The bottom is mostly sand or shale. Every boat, sail or power has a Bruce maybe because of the marketing done is the past. However, every now and then I here complain about its capacity of staying on hold. The ones here, who dont like them, use Danforth.

Don't know about shale as we've never encountered that kind of bottom yet, but for sand just about every anchoring test ever done puts the Danforth type of anchor at the top of list in terms of holding power.* The same list that has Bruce at or near the bottom.

The aluminum Fortress is an excellent anchor for sand although the one drawback I have read about it is that if the boat should get pulling hard sideways on it the shank has been known to bend if the anchor stays set with the pull at that angle.

I was told by the fellow who was once the Bruce distributor for the Puget Sound area that the Bruce's wide popularity in this area stemmed from its reputation for setting quicky in a wide variety of bottoms, which we get up here.* This was certainly our experience in the years we used a Bruce.* But, this fellow said, if what's needed is high holding power, the Bruce leaves a lot to be desired.* This, too, was our experience.

If it was just us I'd think that we were doing something wrong.* But this same dragging-under-pressure has been experienced-- apparently a lot--- by several of the members of our boating club and some of them eventually gave up on the anchor.

As I said, we've not experienced a shale bottom (that we know of).* But based on your description of more open anchorages, often with a sand bottom, the folks in your area who chose a Danforth would seem to be making the more dependable choice in my opinion.

 

[Codger2]

dwhatty wrote:Your Spanish may be bueno but I think that they speak Portuguese in Brazil.

******* Of course you're correct, David and...."they've got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil."

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Friday 14th of October 2011 01:54:39 PM

 

[Portuguese]

....Guys. Yes in Brazil we speak Portuguese. As I have been working in 16 different countries, I also speak fluent Spanish, enough French and I won't starve if I am in an Arabian country.
About the coffee, I agree that we have too much, but not as good as the Colombian or Costa Rican...What we have here a lot, is sunshine and warm mild temperatures 365 days a year.
But, we don't have Trawlers, windlasses, aluminum anchors, marine generators, watermakers, navigation electronics, and a lot of other stuff that costs us an arm and a leg....But life is great here! It is a great nautical community.
Come on down guys. I live in a city set on a bay where you can spend a year visiting a different mooring place every weekend without ever repeating. The fuel is expensive!

 

[dwhatty]

Portuguese wrote:
....Guys. Yes in Brazil we speak Portuguese. As I have been working in 16 different countries, I also speak fluent Spanish, enough French and I won't starve if I am in an Arabian country.
About the coffee, I agree that we have too much, but not as good as the Colombian or Costa Rican...What we have here a lot, is sunshine and warm mild temperatures 365 days a year.
But, we don't have Trawlers, windlasses, aluminum anchors, marine generators, watermakers, navigation electronics, and a lot of other stuff that costs us an arm and a leg....But life is great here! It is a great nautical community.
Come on down guys. I live in a city set on a bay where you can spend a year visiting a different mooring place every weekend without ever repeating. The fuel is expensive!

I would be there in a flash if I could afford it as I have always wanted to visit your country since I learned Portuguese when I was in the US Navy way back in the 1960's. Most of my teachers then were from Brazil. Sadly, I have lost my semi-fluency in Portuguese after 45 years of non use. Where in Brazil are you?

 

[Portuguese]

<q>,,,,,Where in Brazil are you?
</q>

Well, I am in Salvador Bahia
12° 58' 43.22"S* 38° 28' 35.80"W
*
Welcome!


-- Edited by Portuguese on Friday 14th of October 2011 04:31:08 PM

 

[Marin]

We did a project a few years ago with GOL airlines. Worked in both Sao Paulo and Rio. Rio was nice. Sao Paulo not so much. Interesting airport, though. They call it "the aircraft carrier" for good reason.

 

[dwhatty]

Portuguese wrote:
<q>,,,,,Where in Brazil are you?
</q>

Well, I am in Salvador Bahia
12° 58' 43.22"S* 38° 28' 35.80"W
*
Welcome!



-- Edited by Portuguese on Friday 14th of October 2011 04:31:08 PM

Big country! What is that large body of water Northywest of Salvador towards Madre de Dios and then around toward Itaparica? Looks like good cruising grounds?

I vaguely remember a song we sang in class that starts something like (pardon my spelling, grammar and punctuation):

Não há, ó gente, ó não Luar, como esse do sertão...

Is this from your part of Brasil?



-- Edited by dwhatty on Friday 14th of October 2011 05:54:21 PM