XPM78 - Explorer Yacht

[RWestermann]

Chris,
I really like the approach you are taking with the hybrid propulsion for your XPM78-02.
A couple of posts back you mention "dynamic positioning".
Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that?

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Dynamic Positioning

Chris,
I really like the approach you are taking with the hybrid propulsion for your XPM78-02.
A couple of posts back you mention "dynamic positioning".
Can you elaborate a bit on what you mean by that?

Mr Westerman - my long suffering wife does not like being shouted at and dislikes in equal measure being told what to do. So in an effort at self preservation I tried to make it as easy as possible to dock all 78 feet, shorthanded (me).

Firstly, this is not true DP as you would get for example on a Cable layer or Rig support vessel. It uses the same control system but with less redundancy and more latency. We have one long run proportional bow thruster, two electric drives and two independent rudders. We can use the thruster to adjust the bow P/S. The motors (or one motor) to adjust the hull Fwd/Aft and the remaining motor with its attendant rudder to push the stern P/S with quick Fwd bursts of the throttle in the same way as every sailor does docking. Not sure yet about prop walk, need to see how it goes. Also Electric hybrid drive will reduce the latency somewhat.

The system is linked to GPS for position so we can follow a course over ground, a track or stay within an orbit as we would if anchored. Praxis Automation are supplying a Commercial DP system minus the aforementioned redundancy. Systems like Dockmaster or one from Cummins (name?) work in a similar way but I believe they need a stern truster or pod drives. We don't have that luxury.

Praxis are simulating polar (360 deg - not "cold") current and wind effects so we have a good guess at conditions where we are on the limit. We have variables in the control that they will then set up on sea trials.

Will it work? Frankly I don't know for certain but its a good tale while it lasts and I have some faith as its not their first rodeo as they say in Texas.

I hope that explanation helps, if anyone has further comments please chime in.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Great stuff ! I also love the fork lift crane setup, very clever.

Keep the pics flowing, as Helen of Troy said, you can never have too many pics.

Hopefully I will be starting a similar thread soon to track progress, we signed a contract with the same yard and designer recently, drafting off Chris and Wayne

We should start a thread about that "Jury Rig of the Week". With the cost of Framing lumber these days that's probably an expensive creation though the wood does look suspiciously used!

Here is my first contribution - Johns Island, South Carolina, window cleaner in a. Crown Vic. Can't blame the guy for trying rather than sitting around moaning about his fate.

 

[dannc]

... With the cost of Framing lumber these days ...

Yeah, the cost of timber and lumber is at unreal levels. Land owners all around us have been logging all year. We logged some land years ago and managed by dumb luck to sell at a high value that had not been seen in years before or after the sale. Then these prices hit. I wish we had trees to sell.

The current prices are 3-4 times what we got decades ago and would greatly help paying for an LRC.

Later,
Dan

 

[twistedtree]

Yeah, the cost of timber and lumber is at unreal levels. [emoji33] Land owners all around us have been logging all year. We logged some land years ago and managed by dumb luck to sell at a high value that had not been seen in years before or after the sale. Then these prices hit. [emoji33] I wish we had trees to sell. [emoji4]



The current prices are 3-4 times what we got decades ago and would greatly help paying for an LRC.



Later,

Dan

So you are getting more as a land owner? What species? I cut a lot of Ash last summer while it’s still around, and prices weren’t much different. My logger says he’s not making any more money.

 

[RWestermann]

So you are getting more as a land owner? What species? I cut a lot of Ash last summer while it’s still around, and prices weren’t much different. My logger says he’s not making any more money.

Hi Peter and Dan,


Over here in Europe, we now have to deal with higher prices for aluminium (up to 50%) and much longer delivery times.


The word is that one factory went out of business, and the demand was much lower because fewer built aircraft.


If we order aluminium sheets today (May 10, 2021), they will be delivered in the September/October time frame.


Rob

 

[dannc]

So you are getting more as a land owner? What species? I cut a lot of Ash last summer while it’s still around, and prices weren’t much different. My logger says he’s not making any more money.

I don't know for sure since we no longer have trees ready to sell. I did check the NC Extension office of prices which they pull from TimberMart-South | Home, and the price for the landowner does not seem that good.

Having said that, there are some variables that might be affected the report the extension office published. One of the variables is location. The extension office used to report prices based on regions in NC vs the current report that covers the entire state. There can be large variations in different regions.

The report does not seem to show very high prices one is seeing in lumber, yet land owners are logging all around us, so they must be getting good prices. I have never seen this much logging before and it has all happened in the last few months.

So I am stumped regarding prices.

Later,
Dan

 

[twistedtree]

I don't know for sure since we no longer have trees ready to sell. I did check the NC Extension office of prices which they pull from TimberMart-South | Home, and the price for the landowner does not seem that good.

Having said that, there are some variables that might be affected the report the extension office published. One of the variables is location. The extension office used to report prices based on regions in NC vs the current report that covers the entire state. There can be large variations in different regions.

The report does not seem to show very high prices one is seeing in lumber, yet land owners are logging all around us, so they must be getting good prices. I have never seen this much logging before and it has all happened in the last few months.

So I am stumped regarding prices.

Later,
Dan

Ha, stumped. That's a good one.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Hi Peter and Dan,


Over here in Europe, we now have to deal with higher prices for aluminium (up to 50%) and much longer delivery times.


The word is that one factory went out of business, and the demand was much lower because fewer built aircraft.


If we order aluminium sheets today (May 10, 2021), they will be delivered in the September/October time frame.


Rob

Mr Westerman - thanks for commenting. I see in your sort Bio you have one of the Artnautica designed LRC 58's. I really like that long thin utilitarian design, is there a thread here or other contributions that expand on them?

 

[dannc]

Hi Peter and Dan,

Over here in Europe, we now have to deal with higher prices for aluminium (up to 50%) and much longer delivery times.

The word is that one factory went out of business, and the demand was much lower because fewer built aircraft.

If we order aluminium sheets today (May 10, 2021), they will be delivered in the September/October time frame.

Rob

Yeah, commodity prices are going up all over, and can be in short supply. Still, disappointing to hear that AL is being hit hard. Don't they know that boat builders should have the highest priority!

Hopefully, once the pent up demand is resolved and operations get back to normal, prices and delivery times will normalize. <CrossFingers>

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

For Mako.

Mako asked me a question in private mail but I cannot respond because Mako has too many store messages and needs to remove some, so says TF.

I do not mind posting my reply here, since we discussed the topic here, but that is up to Mako, well, and the OP.

I saved my response so I can post where ever, whenever I can.

Later,
Dan

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

They sent me some updated pictures. Also placed orders for most of the hardware we will need Q1 next year, wanted to get ahead of inflation here.

 

[RWestermann]

Mr Westerman - thanks for commenting. I see in your sort Bio you have one of the Artnautica designed LRC 58's. I really like that long thin utilitarian design, is there a thread here or other contributions that expand on them?

Hi Chris,


I am afraid not (yet), at least not by me.


On the Artnautica website one can find a photo report of the hull #3 and hull #5 builds and on Insta I report as well on the LRC58 product line.


I intend to start a LRC65 thread but as mentioned earlier getting available enough aluminium sheets to start a build is a challenge.

 

[dannc]

They sent me some updated pictures. Also placed orders for most of the hardware we will need Q1 next year, wanted to get ahead of inflation here.

That is a good idea and might apply to equipment that is, or will be, affected by the chip shortage. It looks like the chip shortage is going to take a year or so to fix.

Pretty pictures. So cool how the jig saw puzzle turns into a boat.

Later,
Dan

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Rendering

The Yard just set me a rendering. Flybridge is shown with windows but these will not be fitted as we'd cook.

 

[Xlantic]

Plenty solar panels, I see .

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Thanks for reading. She has 8 kW of flexible panels. We have given a little efficiency here in comparison to rigid panels but they conform better to the roof shapes, or at least ones that don't look too contrived. The supplier has fixed connections under the panels so we can bury them in the roof. Aft deck roof, flybridge roof and the front cabin roof have air cooling underneath them to limit efficiency loss at elevated temperatures.

The "8kW" is theoretical max at mid latitudes. Reality will probably be less most days. Grouped Victron MPPT controllers feed in to the house then power batteries. As long as the A/C is not running much we should not need engines at anchor. Or at least that's the theory.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks for reading. She has 8 kW of flexible panels. We have given a little efficiency here in comparison to rigid panels but they conform better to the roof shapes, or at least ones that don't look too contrived. The supplier has fixed connections under the panels so we can bury them in the roof. Aft deck roof, flybridge roof and the front cabin roof have air cooling underneath them to limit efficiency loss at elevated temperatures.

The "8kW" is theoretical max at mid latitudes. Reality will probably be less most days. Grouped Victron MPPT controllers feed in to the house then power batteries. As long as the A/C is not running much we should not need engines at anchor. Or at least that's the theory.

I expect you won't have much trouble keeping up with that much solar. With my 820w of panels I've got surplus power in the afternoon on a good, sunny day (although I'm not cooking on solar/battery). And I've seen short periods of 800+ watts a few times under good conditions. I'm sure your power needs are higher, but probably not 10 times.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Got a few more updates on the hull. Framing coming together now, stringers to add then the skin. We spent some time reinforcing the first 1000mm of the bow. Keel is 25mm plate, skin is another 12mm each side. Should help out from impact with random trees, containers or ice. There is a further watertight bulkhead behind the forepeak.

 

[dannc]

...
The "8kW" is theoretical max at mid latitudes. Reality will probably be less most days. Grouped Victron MPPT controllers feed in to the house then power batteries. As long as the A/C is not running much we should not need engines at anchor. Or at least that's the theory.

Back in May, Wayne(Mobius) posted some information about his solar power generation and usage. I posted some comments and he answered recently about power usage and generation.

...we have still not plugged into any shore power, in part to more fully test out all our electrical systems. We are also going out of our way to use as much electrical consumers as possible so we are leaving all our systems on all the time, running the 230V water heater element, doing LOTS of washing machine loads, all 4 fridge/freezers, etc. so we are going through about 400+ Ah per day and the 14 solar panels bring the 1800 Ah 24V Carbon Foam House batteries back to 100% almost every day and usually by noon or so. Of course we are in a good location and time of year here in Antalya so solar production is quite good...

One of the game changers with the LRC boat is the amount of solar power generation that can be fitted. I ran some numbers using the Victron solar power calculator, and it would seem that the panels, Victron by the way, would produce far more power than would be used, in various Northern Europe locations for 10 months of the year. December and January can be a bit iffy power generation wise.

Later,
Dan

 

[Dav]

Flybridge is shown with windows but these will not be fitted as we'd cook.

Thank heavens!

I do not quite get this "trend" of building a flybridge and then converting it into a indoor space. I must be missing something. It is not like these boats are lacking interior space to begin with. With enclosed flybridge, there is no comfy spot left to spend outside while underway.

Sensible choice!

BTW regarding the solar panels, I would consider once more before getting flex pv panels. They're handy, but they seem to have very limited lifetime in practice, plus they cost quite a bit more than nonflexible ones.

 

[rslifkin]

Thank heavens!

I do not quite get this "trend" of building a flybridge and then converting it into a indoor space. I must be missing something. It is not like these boats are lacking interior space to begin with. With enclosed flybridge, there is no comfy spot left to spend outside while underway.

Sensible choice!

Depending on intended cruising areas, boat equipment (air conditioning, etc.) and what other outside spaces you may have, I can see the desire for a higher vantage point without needing to be outside. Basically upper and lower pilothouse. Of course, that problem could also be solved with just 1 well placed pilothouse.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

We have now nearly completed framing the hull. Stringers were added lastly so she is ready for her final skin. Typical building practice is 5 by 50mm stringers 400mm on centre. (ref: Gerr - Elements of Boat Strength). We increased this to 10 by 100, 300mm on centre at little extra cost as that's the most common plate thickness we found locally. Aluminium is hard to find these days of Covid. Should make for a very stiff hull form.

We had to also add a little additional buoyancy to the stern (2.3T) on account of all the equipment we stuffed in the engine room (batteries, mainly). So it should be easier to step on from the dockside being 600mm wider at the swim platform. (Right hand image.) Not sure how this will affect water flow, need to calculate that still. I need to cure my habit of adding stuff.

Visiting family in Wales,UK, its good to get away from the summer sun of South Carolina for a while.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

The build is now receiving her outer skin so beginning to look like a yacht. Aluminium is proving very difficult to get our hands on in our Covid world of 2021. I also underestimated the time it would take to properly specify the internal outfit, should have know better. However, following the lead set by Dashew and FPB designs, we over specified scantlings and skin thickness so it would take an ill deserved knock or two without damage. Here are a few photo's of where she is at:

The formed plate on the shop floor is for the sole, 19mm (¾"). The stem is 25mm and side plates 12mm.

 

[dannc]

The build is now receiving her outer skin so beginning to look like a yacht. Aluminium is proving very difficult to get our hands on in our Covid world of 2021...

What I have read is that there is plenty of Aluminum. The problem is getting it out of China and getting it shipped somewhere.

Has to be really frustrating but I think for the next couple of years, getting stuff is going to be problematic.

Later,
Dan

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

I use to move containers (20ft) too and from the US to Europe. In the good old days it was about $2000 each, landed. More like $10K now, assuming you can get a slot that is. I've not heard shipping companies moaning about freight rates recently. Norwegian Hydroelectric Aluminium plants are now backed up 12 months last I heard, we even tried Ukraine, (I'd have to take cash to that trade probably). Ahhhhh!

 

[dannc]

Yeah, it was not that long ago shipping companies where complaining about rates and too many containers. Stock in the companies that make shipping containers dropped like a hot rock.

Now, they are building huge numbers of containers and the world is awash with said containers, yet, there is a shortage of containers!

The problem is the empty containers are in the wrong places.

Later,
Dan

 

[NeuroBeaker]

The Yard just set me a rendering. Flybridge is shown with windows but these will not be fitted as we'd cook.

Wow, that's a great looking design.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

[JLAUGHL]

Chris random question for you, has the rapid expansion of inflation in Turkey and the general collapse of the lira impacted your build?


I could see where there might be general benefits from currency conversion but it seems getting the equipment you need to outfit the boats systems could be harder to get into the country...



What if any steps are you thinking about to cover yourself from further turmoil?

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Sir - this is a really good question to pose, currency exposure, solvency ... all considerations in spending on long term projects in foreign destinations. Our contract is in US$ as is our main resource which does limit the foreign exchange exposure and provide for stability if not the absolute lowest price. We are building in Turkey and under Turkish law we are entitled to take ownership of the hull at a very early construction stage so we have some protection also from insolvency at the yard caused by economic turmoil. Our yard, Naval Yachts are also in the Free Trade zone of Antalya meaning that imports basically bypass any internal restrictions and tariffs. What cannot be economically sourced locally can be drop shipped. So far we have done this from the UK, USA, Belarus(!) and China.

It's a frequent misconception that with currency collapse there are deals to be had, perhaps of the one off kind but the collapse is also accompanied by rampant inflation as the locals struggle to make ends meet. Our concern is to keep the project solvent and stable, dealing in US$ helps both us and the yard as the funds are also held in $$. They are good honest and hard working people and I would not wish their circumstance on anyone. respectfully, Chris