Bad Deal and I need to get out of it!

[BruceK]

Where`s that popcorn emoji. How about an anchor discussion?

 

[Action]

28 posts and we do not have the benefit of knowing the type of boat, the year, a link to the listing etc.
What $20K means to a $100K boat, is 20%
what $20K means to a $200K boat is 10%

The boat is titled, you are the main owner, OK, is there a % involved there? Like 60/40 split on sale.

**** or get off the pot comes to mind. If your signature was needed on the sale documents then that is your out, show the buyer your sig and say I do not approve of the sale.

I think post #14 was clear as to what info would be posted and what would be withheld by Monkey Sea.

 

[SeaDogAK]

One advantage to consulting with an attorney is that your conversation is confidential, as opposed to here where your ex might be reading along. Another advantage would be that your advice would come from a knowledgeable expert, as opposed to a lot of well meaning people who may not know enough — about your situation or the law of your state — to give good advice.

 

[CharlieO.]

My ex and I both agree they know at this point we kind of have them over a barrel at this point. The sale at this point is illegal.

If you are concerned about the potential buyers coming across this post.

If I heard the sellers were talking this way about myself and the deal I would leave you sitting at the table. There are other boats out there.

I don't see that the buyers did anything illegal, they are negotiating a boat deal that was listed through a broker, sounds like any mischievous deeds were conducted by the seller's broker and someone else who didn't have the authority to negotiate and/or sign a P+S agreement.

This is my opinion based on your facts and how I interpreted them. Hope it all works out for everyone!

 

[sunchaser]

Are we being trolled? If so, not the first time.

 

[Seevee]

Well, we don't know the value of the boat or what kind it is? Does that really matter? I could argue that not disclosing on a public web site is certainly the right of the poster, even if it makes it harder to help her, and I don't think it does.



However, if $20K is a BIG deal, then it's probably not a real expensive boat, but doubt it's being sold for $50K either.



The BIG rat in this nest is the broker. If he was competent, there would have been a brokerage agreement drawn up prior to the P&S, and he certainly would have been smart enough to involve all owners to draft the documents.



I'd call the broker on the table and tell him to take 5% or pound sand and simply sell direct to the buyer.



Seems like she gets along with the ex well enough to not involve a lawyer, which is really not needed to figure out a fair deal in this sale.

 

[ofer]

Every time I post there is a hint as to what the boat is.

There are only 2 of these available for sale at the moment, and only one is in the US. it wouldn’t take anything for the buyer to come across this thread if I put out that kind of info. I’m sneaky, not stupid!

The boat is documented, not titled, thank god, as a title would make it easier for me to get screwed over on the deal. In my state all that is needed to sell and title a boat is a bill of sale that doesn’t even have to be notary stamped. Being documented makes it much more difficult and a lot scarier too, as the coast guard is pretty famous for FAFO.

a BOAT is... A hole in the water, into which you throw money. Not a rare diamond on a 22K gold pendant.

 

[kthoennes]

My boat is also landlocked geographically in very limited regional market. There are only three for sale in the whole world that I can find right now, etc. And I've seen some recent comp asking prices well into the six figures (although I know that's utterly ridiculous and I'd never actually get that in a million years). Ofer is right, none of that really matters -- it's still not the Hope Diamond. It's still only worth what a buyer is willing to pay at any given moment.

 

[Mambo42]

I read the whole conversation and to me it is very simple.
If forging a signature of an owner is involved you basically already won the case. No need for further discussion.
So I agree with what was stated earlier: 'you just tell them what you want to receive in money and they can arrange the rest'. On top of that I would change the signature, because if you allow the sale to go through knowing that the signature was false......you will also have legal problems.
I guess that, when they realize what they have done, they will cave in and get you what you want. If you want to help your ex you tell the broker to lower the fee to 2.5 of even 0 % for participating in an illegal scheme.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Are we being trolled? If so, not the first time.

Ya' think?

 

[mvweebles]

I think y'all are a bit cranky today. The OPs story made sense to me. The broker and perhaps her ex got ahead of their headlights a bit and she needed to catch up. She sounded appropriately suspicious of the circumstances, but willing to see where it went as she got more information.

At least that was my impression.

Peter

 

[SoWhat]

A good contract lawyer can pierce any contract. Price for said attorney would probably start at $15,000. Yes, lack of your name would make attorneys job easier but if buyer wants to contest it you are in for a long ordeal.

I support the solution of you establishing your personal bottom line. If ex wants to pay 7% let it come out of his share. You will need to draft a written agreement with him and get it notarized. The agreement should specify how the proceeds of the sale will be distributed. In other words, check should be in both names, or brokerage should issue 2 checks, or whatever else you can think of. If he forged your name then he can not be trusted to do what is right.

A P&S can be amended without an attorney with buyers consent. Complicate it and you may lose the sale. Replace the batteries.

 

[sunchaser]

I think y'all are a bit cranky today. The OPs story made sense to me. The broker and perhaps her ex got ahead of their headlights a bit and she needed to catch up. She sounded appropriately suspicious of the circumstances, but willing to see where it went as she got more information.

At least that was my impression.

Peter

Cranky? Not at all . But nothing gets us old guys excited more than helping a damsel in supposed distress. There have been more than a few on TF where internet comfort is sought and freely given.

 

[Action]

But nothing gets us old guys excited more than helping a damsel in supposed distress.

You may be correct, and it is an assumption.
The gender of the OP has not been stated.
That may or may not make any difference.
However it is still an assumption.

BTW for disclosure, I am self labeling as an OG.

The other assumption is marital status.
I have heard the term (outside of this forum) "ex" in reference to an ex-long term partner.
More generally it is referred to a marital couple. However without clarity, we don't know. The good thing is both selling parties are in agreement (at this point) regarding the transaction.

Transactions can be messy in of themselves. (Like this one) Add a dissagreement of co-owners into a transaction and there new level of messy.

 

[CharlieO.]

They came for advice to get out of the deal, ex agreed to cover battery replacement, now think they have the buyers "over the barrel" and want to bully the selling broker into a zero percent commission.

 

[slowgoesit]

They came for advice to get out of the deal, ex agreed to cover battery replacement, now think they have the buyers "over the barrel" and want to bully the selling broker into a zero percent commission.

Charlie, I don't believe the OP ever stated that he/she wanted to lower the commission to 0%. He/She stated that the broker had agreed to 5%, and now wants 7%.

If the OP never signed the P&S, than he/she has very little liability, however if the "ex" did indeed forge the OP's signature, the "ex" has significant exposure. If the broker was aware of that forged signature, the broker has significant legal exposure as well.

What I'm kind of surprised at is that the "broker" and the "owners" apparently never completed a listing agreement prior to listing the boat for sale. Much of the ambiguity could have been eliminated had a listing agreement been competently executed. The broker is apparently incompetent or at the very least, extremely lax in the performance of his/her business.

Oh, and I totally understand and support the OP's decision not to post specifics of the boat and broker in this case. They really aren't germane to the question(s) the OP originally submitted.

Best of luck to the OP in getting a reasonable resolution out of this mess

 

[CharlieO.]

Charlie, I don't believe the OP ever stated that he/she wanted to lower the commission to 0%. He/She stated that the broker had agreed to 5%, and now wants 7%.

If the OP never signed the P&S, than he/she has very little liability, however if the "ex" did indeed forge the OP's signature, the "ex" has significant exposure. If the broker was aware of that forged signature, the broker has significant legal exposure as well.

What I'm kind of surprised at is that the "broker" and the "owners" apparently never completed a listing agreement prior to listing the boat for sale. Much of the ambiguity could have been eliminated had a listing agreement been competently executed. The broker is apparently incompetent or at the very least, extremely lax in the performance of his/her business.

Oh, and I totally understand and support the OP's decision not to post specifics of the boat and broker in this case. They really aren't germane to the question(s) the OP originally submitted.

Best of luck to the OP in getting a reasonable resolution out of this mess

Pretty sure that I had read that in the thread. Maybe some editing happened after I posted. I may have been mistaken though.

Anyway, something feels off on the whole deal and there were enough problems presented where they could have gotten out of the deal if they really wanted to as they posted in the thread title.

 

[SteveK]

Pretty sure that I had read that in the thread. Maybe some editing happened after I posted. I may have been mistaken though.

Anyway, something feels off on the whole deal and there were enough problems presented where they could have gotten out of the deal if they really wanted to as they posted in the thread title.

I also think zero or '0%' was inferred if not written. edited, maybe.
BTW, how does the OP know that the listing broker offered 5% when there was no listing contract before P&S which was also withheld.

The word flip was used. Was that meant to say the OP is in the business of buying /selling for a profit. Good job in the boating world.

 

[BruceK]

... I’m sneaky, not stupid!....

I bailed on offering advice after reading the above. But it`s good others were not dissuaded.

 

[Shrew]

To me this is somewhat cut and dry. Here is what I didn't get out of the thread.

1) Is the boat in both of the selling party's names?

2 Was the P&S signed by both selling parties?

3) Were the amendments to the P&S signed by both parties?

If the answer to #1 is Yes, and the answer to either #2 or #3 is NO, then the contract is voidable.

When the Buyer makes an offer, the seller has the choice to accept and sign, or reject.

When the buyer attempts to amend the P&S, The seller has the right to accept and sign, or reject.

At this point, the buyer either agrees to uphold the original P&S or walk. If the P&S had contingencies, and the contingency isn't met, then buyer is entitled to get their deposit back. If the buyer walks without the contingencies being met, there is grounds to keep the deposit (provided the verbiage of the P&S indicated the deposit was non-refundable).

So, if the vessel is solely owned by the boyfriend and the boyfriend accepted and signed the P&S and the subsequent amendments, then backing out becomes a bit more challenging.

So everything discussed in the last 3 pages of this thread are somewhat moot until we understand the answers to the first three questions.

 

[RickyD]

First, from your description, it's unclear whether you want to tank the deal or to negotiate better terms. Whether you and your ex both want to exit or just you want to exit. You need to be very clear.

I'll speak from perspective of protecting your interests, not your ex, not the brokers. My suggestion would be to send a registered letter to all parties including brokers, brokerages,.your ex and the buyer (if known) to inform you are a legal owner and have not agreed to the terms of the P&S agreement. In real estate, it's possible to file such a letter with the county that records the deed which will effectively prevent a future sale when the title company discovers the letter. Perhaps this is possible with USCG documentation - at the very least, you could prevent transfer of title. However, this will likely place your ex in a bind - if my understanding of your story is accurate, he's part of the selling brokerage so your interests are not necessarily aligned (I know, fairly obvious given he's your ex). Forging your signature is a serious crime (especially if it happens on USCG documentation) and may affect his career depending what state he's in (Florida and California have state licensure for boat brokers, though not sure if simple salespersons are covered too)

Perhaps the easiest thing for you to do is to say to your ex and the brokers "I don't care what you guys do to close the deal as long as I get $xxxx when the dust settles." You don't care if selling price is $20k lower or $20 higher, or if they need to install 20 new batteries. You don't care whether the brokers get a commission or not as long as you get $xxxx. There is nothing that says you get 50% of the proceeds - I have seen very large deals ger hammered out in the favor of an obstinate partner.

Rather than meddle in the negotiations, state your outcome and let them figure it out.

Good luck.

Peter

Great point about stating the outcome you would agree to. I've had customer's line out objectionable items in my contracts which led me to deal with a new marina owner who demanded that I sign their contract which held me responsible for any injuries my guests had on their rickety old wooden docks. I refused for 3 years until they threatened to throw me out. So I just lined out and initialed every objectionable item and they never blinked. I guess they just needed to check the box marked "Signed".

 

[TBW]

Get a lawyer.
Do not talk, email, text or communicate with anyone.
Everything in writing - writing.
If it requires initials, signature or has to do with money it goes across his desk first.
Writing - Lawyer
if it is documented and you are the controlling party, you control everything.
There is nothing without clear, transferable title.
There are companies who handle these documented boat transfers. They are more thorough than thorough. Some are a pain really but........
Good luck
There are worse things than losing this particular deal.

 

[Capt Ray]

#1
https://www.ybaa.yachts/aws/YBAA/pt/sp/about


One more resource that you might want to reach out to is YBAA, if their standard contract form was used for the deal. A number of years ago, I had a *problem* with an unscrupulous member/broker which I prefer not to elaborate upon here. But the Executive Director of YBAA had some very good advice.

He offered for me to send him a WRITTEN COMPLAINT OF A VIOLATION OF THE ORGANIZATION'S CODE OF ETHICS... which he could then act upon.

Their CODE OF ETHICS holds a predominant amount of "ink" on their website.

He could, for example, have a phone call with the broker who was not exactly playing by the rules. In my case, the broker was already known to be a shady character by this Executive Director! I do not recognize the name of the current Executive Director, so I think it is a different individual. Nonetheless, I would *think* the new guy would be a good source of advice for you.

Good luck.

#2
My dad used to say, "Everything is negotiable..."
"So, you should never feel powerless in any negotiation."

#3
One option is to simply tell the broker you are not going to continue with this deal. They cannot hire a lawyer to come after you if it is a YBAA contract. It all goes to binding arbitration... which the complainant has to initiate and pay for!!! Let him/them try to make the case with the weak evidence you describe!

 

[Larry M]

Are we being trolled? If so, not the first time.

It’s beginning to look that way but still a good discussion.

MonkeySea joined and posted 6 times on January 3 and hasn’t visited the site since.

 

[RT Firefly]

 

[MBythewood]

Title cannot be transferred without a controlling partner's signature

I was a broker in California many years ago. If I were to sell my boat I would list it with Curtis Stokes. You may want to contact him for advice.
https://www.facebook.com/CurtisStokesInc/

So my ex and I have had our trawler for sale for a couple months and have now had an offer. I was traveling full time and not privy to all the back door deals/info until I came back to the area.

My ex had been keeping me “informed” via text, but there was a TON he left out and i was not included in ANY of the emails/text/faxes from the brokers. Even now that I am back at the marina(RV) and the broker has been told, in writing, on 2 occasions by both of us I must be included on all correspondence I am still being left out of the loop.

Come to find out there is a reason for that, it is a VERY bad deal, $20000 less than asking bad! So it now falls on me to get us out of the deal.

Here is the list of possible “outs” I have found so far.

The boats name is listed incorrectly on the P&S agreement.(not a big deal except for legal purposes, they were provided a copy of the documentation early on)

****THE BIG ONE **** My name is not listed on P&S agreement.(it’s a documented boat, I am listed as “controlling owner”).

**** THE OTHER BIG ONE **** My ex signed my name to P&S agreement and told me after the fact. The is no power of attorney in place.

I finally got the listing broker to hand over a copy of the P&S agreement yesterday by making a scene, my request for a copy had been ignored previous to that. The deal was initiated by the buyer on 12/01/23.

Agreed on commission was 5% as my ex works for the broker, said broker has now reneged on that and states he doesn’t remember that conversation though when reminded of the exact date and place he has said he will take 7.5% instead of 10%. There was no signed brokers agreement it was just a verbal agreement.

After survey it was determined batteries were needed, 5 of them. A hand written fax from the sellers broker suggested sharing the cost of batteries. We are now being told we have to pay for them.

Emails stating there would be no further concessions beyond a set bottom dollar amount sent twice, and to move on to the next person interested in the boat, one has been completely ignored, the second was sent last night but we expect the same results.

There have been several other issues but these are the big ones.

So do you think I can get out of the deal without recourse on me?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Interviewed C. Stokes when we were listing our trawler for sale in Ft. Lauderdale last year. Best I can say is we were MOST unimpressed! MOST UNIMPRESSED!!!!!!

 

[mvweebles]

Greetings,
Interviewed C. Stokes when we were listing our trawler for sale in Ft. Lauderdale last year. Best I can say is we were MOST unimpressed! MOST UNIMPRESSED!!!!!!

Wow!!!! Not even addressing him as "Mr. Stokes.". For you, Mr. Firefly, saying a lot.

Peter

 

[Action]

+1

 

[Shrew]

****THE BIG ONE **** My name is not listed on P&S agreement.(it’s a documented boat, I am listed as “controlling owner”).

**** THE OTHER BIG ONE **** My ex signed my name to P&S agreement and told me after the fact. The is no power of attorney in place.

I don't know how I missed this. This contract is voidable, if not basically void.

If you are listed on the title (Documentation IS the title in this case), then it is not your boyfriends boat to sell. Your boyfriend can't sign your name to a contract. I seriously question the ethics of the broker on this one.

I also seriously question the ethics of the boyfriend.

My guess this has since been brought to light and why we've not heard back from the OP.