Grounding wire for outdoor wifi AP

[paulga]

I was going to mount the tp link eap610 outdoor ap on a pole on top of the flybridge. Then noticed the manual requires connecting a grounding wire which is not provided in the package.

The ap is powered by an Ethernet cable from an poe injector plugged in an outlet in the bridge (3 prongs)

Can I use a 18 gauge copper wire for the grounding? Where should the wire ground to?

 

[Comodave]

I have no knowledge about this device but 18 gauge is pretty small wire. I would go at least 14 gauge unless you find documentation specifying something different.

 

[paulga]

I have no knowledge about this device but 18 gauge is pretty small wire. I would go at least 14 gauge unless you find documentation specifying something different.

Where does the wire connect to? As I know fiberglass is not conductor

 

[Comodave]

You would have to find out more about the device you are trying to ground. Then probably take it to the main ground bus bar. It could be a fairly long run so I would definitely go bigger than 18 gauge wire. Try to get a manual for that device.

 

[paulga]

You would have to find out more about the device you are trying to ground. Then probably take it to the main ground bus bar. It could be a fairly long run so I would definitely go bigger than 18 gauge wire. Try to get a manual for that device.

Is the main ground bus bar located in the rear panel behind the lower helm?

 

[paulga]

The grounding instruction is very succinct

 

[paulga]

The red area is the mounting location. Is it sufficient to ground to the green area in either picture? Or the base of a nearby pole, since those poles should already be grounded?

 

[Comodave]

What should be and what is can be 2 entirely different things. Lots of people, unfortunately, don’t follow the proper installation procedures. Only way is to check and see if they are grounded, I would guess not but that is just a guess. I couldn’t read the installation instructions, too small writing.

 

[paulga]

Here is the instructions on grounding

 

[READY]

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician so this response is just based upon what I think to be true:


If you take a lightening strike it is very unlikely unit will survive even if grounded with a heavy gage wire. If it builds up static electricity then a moderately sized ground could help prevent ESD damage. The most important safety benefit would be to protect the user (if they touch the metal cas) if the case gets internally shorted to power. That is normal for an AC powered product with a metal case such as an inverter. But given this unit is POE and presumably low powe I don't see how that could be much risk. I guess theoretically the ethernet cable COULD come in contact with AC power but you are more likely to win the lottery.

You should follow the manufactures instructions but I would not worry about this if it wasn't very easy to get to a good ground point.

 

[paulga]

Thanks. I have decided not to ground it, after some online research. I have read the grounding block on a boat is the negative polarity of battery, or a bus bar, eventually connected to a metal anode. Properly grounding requires a lengthy thick copper wire from bridge top into the cabin, I haven't seen other boats have that kind of wire.

I have also read that the masts nearby (conductor or not) will make a safety net, offering protection from lightening hazard. Many neighbors in this dock are sailboats.

Disclaimer: I am not an
electrician so this response is just based upon what I think to be true:


If you take a lightening strike it is very unlikely unit will survive even if grounded with a heavy gage wire. If it builds up static electricity then a moderately sized ground could help prevent ESD damage. The most important safety benefit would be to protect the user (if they touch the metal cas) if the case gets internally shorted to power. That is normal for an AC powered product with a metal case such as an inverter. But given this unit is POE and presumably low powe I don't see how that could be much risk. I guess theoretically the ethernet cable COULD come in contact with AC power but you are more likely to win the lottery.

You should follow the manufactures instructions but I would not worry about this if it wasn't very easy to get to a good ground point.

 

[STB]

I have no knowledge about this device but 18 gauge is pretty small wire. I would go at least 14 gauge unless you find documentation specifying something different.

I'd have thought 8 gauge, myself.

Maybe 10 gauge, but really...8 gauge.

 

[psneeld]

I believe ABYC recommends as minimums

6 ga for Lightning/bonding
8 ga for bonding
16 ga for grounding but no less than one size smaller than the units current carrying
wires.

ABYC separates bonding (corrosion/lightning) from grounding (safety/electrical
interference) for wiring, even though systems connected at some points.


circuitfixlilian123.z22.web.core.windows.net

 

[STB]

I believe ABYC recommends as minimums

6 ga for Lightning/bonding
8 ga for bonding
16 ga for grounding but no less than one size smaller than the units current carrying
wires.

ABYC separates bonding (corrosion/lightning) from grounding (safety/electrical
interference) for wiring, even though systems connected at some ponts.

Thanks! I don't have the docs in front of me, but isn't that for the components of a lightning protection system, e.g. the lightning conductors, grounding electrodes, etc, that establish and maintain the protective field and discharge lightning more safely to ground? Versus to bleed static off of a small, lower antenna?

Intentionally attracting and conducting lighting to safe(r) discharge seems like a totally different game.

I'm really just asking because I have a foggy memory that is no where near knowing.

 

[DBG8492]

Thanks. I have decided not to ground it, after some online research. I have read the grounding block on a boat is the negative polarity of battery, or a bus bar, eventually connected to a metal anode. Properly grounding requires a lengthy thick copper wire from bridge top into the cabin, I haven't seen other boats have that kind of wire.

I have also read that the masts nearby (conductor or not) will make a safety net, offering protection from lightening hazard. Many neighbors in this dock are sailboats.

I have two friends who both live in sailboats and both experienced lightning strikes in the past two years. One was a direct hit to the mast while underway, and the other was in the field of a strike on a crane about twenty yards away from where he was docked in a marina.

Both of them suffered nearly the same fate - all electronic devices on board were fried. The only difference was the wiring on the boat that took a direct hit - all of it had to be replaced. The owner of the indirectly-hit boat chose to replace it all because he simply didn't trust it anymore.

A neighbor in the yard where I am now was also struck shortly after we arrived. It hit the mast and traveled through the boat (I assume) looking for ground. It blew holes up to an inch in diameter through the hull near just about all of the jackstands and along the shaft log all the way to the rudder. It also fried all of his electronics. He wasn't aboard when it happened.

I guess you could say that, in the case of the first two who were aboard when it happened, they're still alive, but I am not sure that is due to anything other than luck.

 

[psneeld]

Thanks! I don't have the docs in front of me, but isn't that for the components of a lightning protection system, e.g. the lightning conductors, grounding electrodes, etc, that establish and maintain the protective field and discharge lightning more safely to ground? Versus to bleed static off of a small, lower antenna?

Intentionally attracting and conducting lighting to safe(r) discharge seems like a totally different game.

I'm really just asking because I have a foggy memory that is no where near knowing.

Not sure what you are asking...what I posted were 3 different ga wire minimums for the different levels of protection required and the difference in bonding/grounding that ABYC makes.

 

[paulga]

lightening damage is possible, i have no ways to rule that out.

all I did was mounting a tp-link eap610 outdoor router on a pole near the radar cone, lower than all other structures. it is powered via a PoE injector plugged in an AC outlet in the bridge.

I don't think this would increase the likelihood of lightening which is small. all your examples are sail boats, correct? but not grounding the router would give excuse for insurance to deny coverage. I may look to find an alternative internet solution, given the marina wifi is sluggish, although stable.

just curious, would people who installed a starlink dish connect a grounding wire?

I have seen 8 gauge copper wire roll at lowes yesterday. so thick and heavy, I was not able to even bend the wire.

I have two friends who both live in sailboats and both experienced lightning strikes in the past two years. One was a direct hit to the mast while underway, and the other was in the field of a strike on a crane about twenty yards away from where he was docked in a marina.

Both of them suffered nearly the same fate - all electronic devices on board were fried. The only difference was the wiring on the boat that took a direct hit - all of it had to be replaced. The owner of the indirectly-hit boat chose to replace it all because he simply didn't trust it anymore.

A neighbor in the yard where I am now was also struck shortly after we arrived. It hit the mast and traveled through the boat (I assume) looking for ground. It blew holes up to an inch in diameter through the hull near just about all of the jackstands and along the shaft log all the way to the rudder. It also fried all of his electronics. He wasn't aboard when it happened.

I guess you could say that, in the case of the first two who were aboard when it happened, they're still alive, but I am not sure that is due to anything other than luck.

 

[DBG8492]

lightening damage is possible, i have no ways to rule that out.

all I did was mounting a tp-link eap610 outdoor router on a pole near the radar cone, lower than all other structures. it is powered via a PoE injector plugged in an AC outlet in the bridge.

I don't think this would increase the likelihood of lightening which is small. all your examples are sail boats, correct? but not grounding the router would give excuse for insurance to deny coverage. I may look to find an alternative internet solution, given the marina wifi is sluggish, although stable.

just curious, would people who installed a starlink dish connect a grounding wire?

I have seen 8 gauge copper wire roll at lowes yesterday. so thick and heavy, I was not able to even bend the wire.

I have no idea what the insurance company would or would not say about the ungrounded router. My post was in regard to any "protection" offered by masts, and knowing what I know from seeing the results, I'd say that it's minimal at best.

Of the three people I know who have dealt with it - and yes, all were on sailboats - two filed claims and were paid without issue. The other chose to make the repairs himself rather than file a claim.

My Starlink doesn't have a spot for grounding the antenna. I've read about a lot of people who add an Ethernet surge protector to the line and bond that device to ground. However, my experience with nearly all surge protectors has been spotty at best - especially when lightning was involved.

But if I were going to try to do something to ground it, that's probably the best plan.

 

[tpbrady]

I am pretty sure the requirement for grounding the antenna for the outdoor unit is based on the National Electric Code. Those requirements are based on tying to earth ground which you don’t have. From a practical standpoint no ground would have almost no effect on operation and as others have pointed out, not have much of an effect on a direct hit. ABYC would be the guidelines on a boat. As far as Starlink is concerned, I have always wondered about lack of a grounding point especially when roof mounted or high in the air on a pole.

Tom

 

[paulga]

I think the point about having high masts nearby is, they will attract lightening first. if I anchor at an open area alone, my boat will be exposed to lightening hazard alone.

I have no idea what the insurance company would or would not say about the ungrounded router. My post was in regard to any "protection" offered by masts, and knowing what I know from seeing the results, I'd say that it's minimal at best.

Of the three people I know who have dealt with it - and yes, all were on sailboats - two filed claims and were paid without issue. The other chose to make the repairs himself rather than file a claim.

My Starlink doesn't have a spot for grounding the antenna. I've read about a lot of people who add an Ethernet surge protector to the line and bond that device to ground. However, my experience with nearly all surge protectors has been spotty at best - especially when lightning was involved.

But if I were going to try to do something to ground it, that's probably the best plan.

 

[STB]

Not sure what you are asking...what I posted were 3 different ga wire minimums for the different levels of protection required and the difference in bonding/grounding that ABYC makes.

I was asking which one, if any, are guidance for the grounding of an antenna like the one being discussed. Thanks!

 

[STB]

I am pretty sure the requirement for grounding the antenna for the outdoor unit is based on the National Electric Code. Those requirements are based on tying to earth ground which you don’t have. From a practical standpoint no ground would have almost no effect on operation and as others have pointed out, not have much of an effect on a direct hit. ABYC would be the guidelines on a boat. As far as Starlink is concerned, I have always wondered about lack of a grounding point especially when roof mounted or high in the air on a pole.

Tom

For a boat lightning protection, I'd actually recommend NFPA 780 vs ABYC TE-4. In some circles there is war over the differences between the two and representatives of one group has explained their concerns and reccomendations fairly well, articulating the rationale for the differences, and the other group not so much. At least in various circles ai teavel.and places I read.

 

[psneeld]

I was asking which one, if any, are guidance for the grounding of an antenna like the one being discussed. Thanks!

If worried about lightning, they recommend 6 ga.

For just RF bleed, then 16ga or larger (like the tiny wire seen in electronic power cable bundles...not necessarily the foil or mesh shielding).

That's what the excerpt from the OP seems to indicate....as the antenna is only powered by a POE so grounding the case is not probably necessary.

 

[STB]

If worried about lightning, they recommend 6 ga.

For just RF bleed, then 16ga or larger (like the tiny wire seen in electronic power cable bundles...not necessarily the foil or mesh shielding).

That's what the excerpt from the OP seems to indicate....as the antenna is only powered by a POE so grounding the case is not probably necessary.

Thanks!

My earlier xommwnt about 8AWG wasn't from any type of standard, just what I've seen people I trust use in similar situations. Not much different -- but next time I'll grab 6 AWG!

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks!

My earlier xommwnt about 8AWG wasn't from any type of standard, just what I've seen people I trust use in similar situations. Not much different -- but next time I'll grab 6 AWG!

I'm trying to imagine 6-guage green wire grounding a 20-watt Access Point.

BTW - I recently replaced my bonding wires. Was during Covid so perhaps supply chain issues, but finding anything heavier than 8-guage in green was impossible.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Thanks!

My earlier xommwnt about 8AWG wasn't from any type of standard, just what I've seen people I trust use in similar situations. Not much different -- but next time I'll grab 6 AWG!

The 8 ga is often quoted and the ABYC wire ga for bonding, they just go to 6 ga to keep it simple for bonding AND lightning protection.

 

[psneeld]

I'm trying to imagine 6-guage green wire grounding a 20-watt Access Point.

BTW - I recently replaced my bonding wires. Was during Covid so perhaps supply chain issues, but finding anything heavier than 8-guage in green was impossible.

Peter

Generally I would think an access point wouldn't need to be bonded and if Cat 5/6 cable is the power supply, then something close to cat 5/6 wire could be used to ground if necessary (don't know why) and probably OK for RF reduction/bleed.

 

[READY]

FYI. I took a direct hit on my former boat, while at Sea. It hit a VHF antenna and vaporized the fiberglass. Took out all of my electronics. This was 20 years ago but the insurance carrier did not do any extensive exam checking for grounds. It could be different today but they would find it challenging to say that not having your antenna grounded would have any impact on the outcome. If lightening hits on or near your boat no ground is likely to save the electronics.

 

[DBG8492]

If lightening hits on or near your boat no ground is likely to save the electronics.

This rhymes with what I have witnessed.