I’ve been doing it all wrong! (single engine handling)

[mncruiser]

It’s our third season with our Mainship 390, single Yanmar 300 with a bow thruster. I’m intent on not using the “cheating” bow thruster this season until I’m confident I can handle the boat without the thruster. Then I’ve earned the right to cheat!

We have fairly narrow fairways, we tie up starboard side. My usual cheating procedure is to go slightly past the slip, thruster the bow starboard, and in to the slip and a little port rudder brings the stern in.

Without thrusters, I go 3-4 slips past, and execute a back and fill turn thingy, then come into the slip.

My prop rotates clockwise.

Well I’ve been doing port turns, because the boat turns tighter that way. Guess what? That’s the wrong way!

My 10 year old informed me I was within 4” of “smoking the dinghy on a pole” while he was manning his stern line station as we came in last night. I have been feeling like I was drifting starboard more than I wanted to….because I’m turning the wrong way, correct?

He and I looked it up and I think that’s correct.

We went and got a pump out today, and I got the chance to do a few right turns, but coming into the slip I used the thruster as I could tell my dock crew was not in the mood for my boating challenge games.

Am I on the right track here?

 

[Comodave]

You need to see what direction your stern goes in reverse and then use that to your advantage. Don’t try to force the boat to do something that it can’t do.

 

[mncruiser]

But…this:

(Image credit Tor Pinney from tor.cc)

 

[Comodave]

Easiest way is to put it in reverse and give it a burst of power and see which way it backs. Then always try to back that direction if possible. If not possible then set the rudder the other way and start backing. As it turns give it periodic bursts of forward to straighten the boat out and then continue reversing.

 

[High Wire]

The theory in post 3 is correct as far as propeller force goes. But wind and current complicate things and must always be considered. For right hand props “Back-to-Port”. Meaning: RH prop, rudder amidships and little way on, the stern moves to port when backing and to starboard when going ahead
All good to know until you charter a trawler with a left hand prop then it’s all backwards!

 

[mvweebles]

Ugghhh.....without a picture or diagram, I always screw-up these types of posts, but I keep trying anyway. Here it goes....

As Hih Wire states, the diagram is correct. In reverse, your prop pulls your stern to port which assists a starboard turn. For your back & fill maneuvers, you should make a starboard turn.....if you have a choice.

I assume when you say you land to starboard, it means you have a shared slip - no center finger between you and a boat next to you. You are correct to go past a bit so you can build momentum towards the dock.

A couple tips that may help.

Using short bursts. Challenge with a single is getting flow over the rudder to turn without building forward momentum - "Kick" the stern. The rudder must be hard-over before the gear is engaged. Raise the RPMs a bit for a second or so.

Prop walk is most prominant just as the boat's forward momentum stops. This is important as you plan your back & fill. You go to reverse to slow the boat but often nothing happens until you're almost stopped. Then the prop starts to 'grab' and pull the stern to port in your case. Good time to bring the RPMs up for a second or two, then promptly go to forward (rudder should already be hard-over stardboard). Its all timing from there - goal is to build/maintain rotational momentum. Any current or wind will confound it so don't be disappointed.

If I guessed right about your slip arrangement - no finger between you and next boat, it's a bit tricky in a single with 'wrong' prop walk. As you stop forward momentum, you have to kick the stern to starboard. But in the end, in the absence of favorable wind or current, the stern wants to go to port. Best defense is good crew and a good plan on which dockline is first. All boats respond differently, but often a good first dockline in your situation is a springline attached to the end of the finger with the loop laid over your midship cleat as you come into your slip. With your helm hard-over to port and gear in idle-forward, acts as a "brake" to lever you into the finger giving crew time to make-up other docklines. But do not underestimate the trickiness of docking 'wrong side' in a single. Practice your short game - your 10-year old son is great crew I'm sure.

BTW - I love your avatar photo of two children walking hand-in-hand down a dock. My sister is 18-months younger than I am and we remain close siblings. That could easily have been us circa 1970.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

We have fairly narrow fairways, we tie up starboard side. My usual cheating procedure is to go slightly past the slip, thruster the bow starboard, and in to the slip and a little port rudder brings the stern in.

Without thrusters, I go 3-4 slips past, and execute a back and fill turn thingy, then come into the slip.

My prop rotates clockwise.

Well I’ve been doing port turns, because the boat turns tighter that way. Guess what? That’s the wrong way!

He and I looked it up and I think that’s correct.

Am I on the right track here?

The diagram is correct.

I'm not clear which side of the fairway your slip is on. If to port, you'd slightly pass your slip, crab in using small shots of reverse gear and occasional shots of forward gear. No throttle, no thruster required.

If your slip is on the starboard side of your fairway, get a different slip.

Or do a 270° before backing in to that.

-Chris

 

[mncruiser]

Ugghhh.....without a picture or diagram, I always screw-up these types of posts, but I keep trying anyway. Here it goes....

As Hih Wire states, the diagram is correct. In reverse, your prop pulls your stern to port which assists a starboard turn. For your back & fill maneuvers, you should make a starboard turn.....if you have a choice.

I assume when you say you land to starboard, it means you have a shared slip - no center finger between you and a boat next to you. You are correct to go past a bit so you can build momentum towards the dock.

A couple tips that may help.

Using short bursts. Challenge with a single is getting flow over the rudder to turn without building forward momentum - "Kick" the stern. The rudder must be hard-over before the gear is engaged. Raise the RPMs a bit for a second or so.

Prop walk is most prominant just as the boat's forward momentum stops. This is important as you plan your back & fill. You go to reverse to slow the boat but often nothing happens until you're almost stopped. Then the prop starts to 'grab' and pull the stern to port in your case. Good time to bring the RPMs up for a second or two, then promptly go to forward (rudder should already be hard-over stardboard). Its all timing from there - goal is to build/maintain rotational momentum. Any current or wind will confound it so don't be disappointed.

If I guessed right about your slip arrangement - no finger between you and next boat, it's a bit tricky in a single with 'wrong' prop walk. As you stop forward momentum, you have to kick the stern to starboard. But in the end, in the absence of favorable wind or current, the stern wants to go to port. Best defense is good crew and a good plan on which dockline is first. All boats respond differently, but often a good first dockline in your situation is a springline attached to the end of the finger with the loop laid over your midship cleat as you come into your slip. With your helm hard-over to port and gear in idle-forward, acts as a "brake" to lever you into the finger giving crew time to make-up other docklines. But do not underestimate the trickiness of docking 'wrong side' in a single. Practice your short game - your 10-year old son is great crew I'm sure.

BTW - I love your avatar photo of two children walking hand-in-hand down a dock. My sister is 18-months younger than I am and we remain close siblings. That could easily have been us circa 1970.

Peter

You guessed it exactly right! Thanks for the great response, it’s exactly what’s been floating around in my head, but could not put all the pieces together.

I’ve got to be better about using the spring line to pivot, rudder hard over to port and move the stern in. So far this season every docking event has been super calm, but that will change.

Having a great crew helps a lot. But also trying to be better single handed as well. That’s going to take more practice, but I’m now very happy with my lower helm and side door that at least puts me in the right spot!

Thank you, That avatar pic is great, was the kids almost 5 years ago now, back when we were river boaters on the St. Croix and Mississippi. It was one of those not staged moments that just popped up! They still are the best of friends, also close in age, and great little boaters!

 

[mncruiser]

The diagram is correct.



I'm not clear which side of the fairway your slip is on. If to port, you'd slightly pass your slip, crab in using small shots of reverse gear and occasional shots of forward gear. No throttle, no thruster required.



If your slip is on the starboard side of your fairway, get a different slip.



Or do a 270° before backing in to that.



-Chris

We are the starboard fairway as we come in. We always dock bow in. Starboard tie.

Most of my dock friends already are confused why I’m doing so many circles, even when I use the thruster. Ha!

It’s only going to get worse with the 270 degree and similar turns!

 

[Pete Meisinger]

The port or starboard "drift" while in reverse is a variable thing. just when you think you have it figured out a little wind or current will change the norm. You have a bow thruster, use it.

pete

 

[Gdavid]

Don't beat yourself up about using the thruster, that boat's design really relies on it with the relatively small rudder and the integrated swim platform/hull extension. I believe Mainship made the bow thruster standard equipment on the single engine 350 & 390 boats out of necessity rather than market appeal. The twin engine boats did not receive the bow thruster as standard equipment.

It is better to use the thruster early to keep yourself on track in a docking evolution rather than rely on it to bail you out when things are going wrong because you may end up over-taxing it and tripping the breaker. With time, you can learn to use it less but it will require judicious use of the throttle at times.

I've run a single engine 390 quite a bit, my parents own one, I ran it home from NYC to the Chesapeake Bay and was fortunate to borrow frequently it over two seasons to take trips with my own family. My father, brother and I have spent quite a bit of time practicing docking the thing, critiquing each other, experimenting with different approaches and conditions. It is a great boat in many ways but it just is not very responsive to helm at slow speed. I know the steering system is fully bled and it has a rudder angle indicator at both helms (in the autohelm) which we rely on extensively when docking which assures me the rudder is following helm input correctly.

I also own an old Mainship 34' with no thrusters and I single hand it out of my busy marina pretty frequently. The 390 is a much better boat in many ways and I covet my parent's much newer and spacious boat but it would take me a lot of additional practice to run it without the thruster.

 

[rslifkin]

Doing a 270* was mentioned further up in the thread. Sometimes that's truly a better option than trying to make the boat turn in a way it doesn't want to go.

And as mentioned, from what I've seen of them, the Mainship 350/390 is not a great handling boat in close quarters.

 

[mvweebles]

It is better to use the thruster early to keep yourself on track in a docking evolution rather than rely on it to bail you out when things are going wrong because you may end up over-taxing it and tripping the breaker. With time, you can learn to use it less but it will require judicious use of the throttle at times.

As luck would have it, my berth in Ensenada MX that I went to after my refit - which included install of a Bow Thruster after 25-years of no-thruster - had the same situation as the OP. Landing on 'wrong' side. I have to say I love having a thruster. It doesn't take much - a second or two here and there. But it sure makes life easier.

I've been in/out of that slip a few dozen times. About 20% of the returns have been a bit sloppy, partially because when I've had crew there has been a language barrier (my Spanish sucks). I really need to practice more and get a better feel of where on my boat to place the springline. Somehow, theory is not always a predictable precursor to reality.

I also want to practice backing into the slip since that would put prop walk on the favorable side. I don't have a lot of experience backing my boat into a slip so definitely need to spend some quality time practicing that too. Once my wife is with me, will be easier to practice together.

At any rate, I do not consider thruster usage to be cheating. It's a tool that enables and de-risks close quarter maneuvers and allows you to go to unfamiliar berths with confidence. The more experience you have the less time it will be used. I see nothing but upside with a thruster. Glad I had it installed.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

At any rate, I do not consider thruster usage to be cheating. It's a tool that enables and de-risks close quarter maneuvers and allows you to go to unfamiliar berths with confidence. The more experience you have the less time it will be used. I see nothing but upside with a thruster. Glad I had it installed.

Agreed, thrusters are there to be used. It's just good to have an understanding of how the boat moves, what it can do without the thruster, and why you're using the thruster (which you certainly do after so many years on the same boat without a thruster). I see way too many people over-use it and under-use the rudder, making things harder than it needs to be. Heck, I've seen people try to steer a boat down a marina fairway with the bow thruster...

 

[mncruiser]

The port or starboard "drift" while in reverse is a variable thing. just when you think you have it figured out a little wind or current will change the norm. You have a bow thruster, use it.

pete

Agreed. But the thruster has been keeping me from learning the full dynamics of how the boat really handles.

 

[mvweebles]

Agreed. But the thruster has been keeping me from learning the full dynamics of how the boat really handles.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You learned what you learned when you were ready to learn it. Safely and comfortably. If you end up enjoying boating long term, you will constantly find yourself learning more. Part of the charm.

...... Heck, I've seen people try to steer a boat down a marina fairway with the bow thruster...

Imagine how it would go if they had no thruster..... And at least they got out using their boat (gulp).

Single engines force a person to learn at least something. A thruster is a safety valve while they develop skills. That's great. When I first started 35-years ago, thrusters were rare. I started in a very high-wind area near Candlestick Park, San Francisco. Afternoon winds at the dock were routinely 25-30 kts. Idea of going out in the morning knowing what was coming when I returned turned my stomach. A thruster would have helped so much - at least I could have learned.

I'm pretty good at close quarters - singles and twins. But that's because I used to dock a lot on many, many different boats. Not every docking goes perfectly. I can remember a few that went embarassingly poorly, usually because I mis-read current (oh....that day at Angel Island SF Bay......). Some weren't that long ago.

I just think thrusters are a great investment. Yea, $7k-$10K-ish by the time they'reinstalled, but if they get your boat out of the slip, its money well spent.

Peter

 

[mncruiser]

Don't beat yourself up about using the thruster, that boat's design really relies on it with the relatively small rudder and the integrated swim platform/hull extension. I believe Mainship made the bow thruster standard equipment on the single engine 350 & 390 boats out of necessity rather than market appeal. The twin engine boats did not receive the bow thruster as standard equipment.

It is better to use the thruster early to keep yourself on track in a docking evolution rather than rely on it to bail you out when things are going wrong because you may end up over-taxing it and tripping the breaker. With time, you can learn to use it less but it will require judicious use of the throttle at times.

I've run a single engine 390 quite a bit, my parents own one, I ran it home from NYC to the Chesapeake Bay and was fortunate to borrow frequently it over two seasons to take trips with my own family. My father, brother and I have spent quite a bit of time practicing docking the thing, critiquing each other, experimenting with different approaches and conditions. It is a great boat in many ways but it just is not very responsive to helm at slow speed. I know the steering system is fully bled and it has a rudder angle indicator at both helms (in the autohelm) which we rely on extensively when docking which assures me the rudder is following helm input correctly.

I also own an old Mainship 34' with no thrusters and I single hand it out of my busy marina pretty frequently. The 390 is a much better boat in many ways and I covet my parent's much newer and spacious boat but it would take me a lot of additional practice to run it without the thruster.

I do have one advantage, previous owner put on this articulated rudder which is pretty slick!

 

[hollywood8118]

I would equate not using the thruster to having someone standing on the swim platform line in hand and not having them step on the dock to cleat the line while I rush to do it myself. I have been putting single engine trawlers in their slips for over 25 years and I still use ALL tools I have to try to get the perfect approach and docking. Even with all the tools one will have a crap landing at times.. even when all looked perfect .. until it wasn't.
Slow,steady, purposeful, and focused typically works the best ( for me).
Hollywood

 

[Hippocampus]

Like you had troubles initially. Last few boats were high aspect fin bulb keeled sailboats. They pivot on the keel. Due to high shaft angle and significant distance between prop and balanced spade rudder they have prop walk but not much if any prop wash.

Now have a NT42. It has basically a low aspect full keel with more keel aft than forward. Rudder is close to the prop. Small distance between prop and canoe body. Suspect your boat is similar. So it has both prop walk and prop wash. But for me the initial confounding variable was it doesn’t pivot amidships. The bow moves easily but the stern tends to stay put. Have two 8hp thrusters. Between the stern thruster being closer to the surface and faced with having to move more lateral plane it isn’t as effective as the bow thruster. even without engaging thrusters net effect is is it’s much easier to move the bow around then the stern.

So now I aim to get the bow where I want it and don’t worry as much about the stern as much during the first part of docking. The stern will be 180 from the bow. I usually dock stern first into slips but bow first when going into tight parallel to a face dock sneaking in between two other boats. Find if I can get the bow where I want it I can then loop a spring line. Whether that spring runs forward or aft depends upon which way I’m going. But usually aft when going into fuel docks. But with a spring and a small bit of throttle you get pulled in parallel to the dock. This works even when current or wind would have overwhelmed the thrusters. Found it works well going in but given the sides of recreational trawlers are fairly flat not as well going out. The constant curve of most sailboat hulls makes springing off a dock easier. But you can spring off going forward against a bow line brought to a dock cleat (or pole) amidships with trawlers.

Have also found that unless I have a lot of room I’ve given up on back and fill to port. Like you and most US boats I have a RHed prop. So even if I want to turn just 90 degrees to port I go 270 to starboard. Initially I was too light handed with the throttle. Trick for me was to learn to give a blast of throttle. Just briefly enough the boat doesn’t move or barely moves but still a strong blast. Also found I wasn’t waiting long enough between forward and reverse. Now only go to reverse when the bow has totally stopped swinging to starboard.

Practiced against a channel marker. Found it so different than sailboats needed that time. Doing that also teaches you how your boat handles in current and wind. Try to stimulate docking from all cardinal points. Try to back up to put your stern close to the buoy from them as well. That was another thing to learn. Compared to sailboats my trawler has a lot more top hamper. Given the bow swings first I might go into a slip bow or stern first depending upon which way the wind will help me to line up to the entrance of the slip. Again because, at least for me, when backing in stern first I think a lot about where the bow should be to get the stern where I want it. So much easier to correct if you’re a bit off.

Lastly had to get my head around how poorly trawlers steer at very low speeds with the rudder. Have hydraulic steering so increased sensitivity making it 2 1/2 turns lock to lock. Also how hard it is to back a trawler up in a straight line for any kind a significant distance. Especially with wind or current. Definitely worth practicing.

So far I’ve haven’t hit another boat nor hit mine. Some docking has been pretty. Some not so much. Some I aborted before starting as I didn’t feel I lined up everything correctly. Still not a universally pretty docker but getting there. I still have no reluctance to using the thrusters. No ego in docking (or boating for that matter) . Figure as time goes on I’ll use them less and less so there’s no rush.

 

[Fletcher500]

Good Posts Peter.

 

[CaptTom]

@Hippocampus touched on a point I'd like to emphasize.

Know your pivot points. The rule of thumb is it'll be about 1/3 of the way aft when you're going forward, and 1/3 of the way forward when reversing. Obviously that's just a generalization. The key is to know how much the "other end" is going to swing when making any turn. It's critical to not think like you're driving a car, where the front wheels are pulling you into the turn.

 

[mvweebles]

@Hippocampus touched on a point I'd like to emphasize.

Know your pivot points. The rule of thumb is it'll be about 1/3 of the way aft when you're going forward, and 1/3 of the way forward when reversing. Obviously that's just a generalization. The key is to know how much the "other end" is going to swing when making any turn. It's critical to not think like you're driving a car, where the front wheels are pulling you into the turn.

Good point - for reference, flybridge is often about one-third aft. So if you're driving from there, you're standing above the pivot point in forward. It's also why its often better to back-away from a lateral obstruction such as a side-tie with a boat in front and behind.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

We are the starboard fairway as we come in. We always dock bow in. Starboard tie.

Most of my dock friends already are confused why I’m doing so many circles, even when I use the thruster. Ha!

It’s only going to get worse with the 270 degree and similar turns!

Well bow-to on the starboard side of your fairway should be easy. Just use the rudder, drive the boat in, and stop. Might need some short shots of reverse gear to kick your stern out a bit... but thruster shouldn't be required.

Heavy weather or running tides or whatever may sometimes call for a spring line -- or some thruster since you've got one -- and laying up against a pile to force a pivot is sometimes useful too.

The 270° is only for stern-to into a slip on your starboard side... and I guess you could probably avoid that with your thruster... but we never had a thruster, so I dunno about that for sure.

-Chris

 

[SteveK]

"Last few boats were high aspect fin bulb keeled sailboats. They pivot on the keel."
I still use that technique with the trawler (sorta). Forward momentum established and use prop walk, wheel hard over, occasional burst forward to pivot (with twins). Timed right the boat rotates and slides sideways into the dock. Not sure if it would work with a single.

 

[mvweebles]

"Last few boats were high aspect fin bulb keeled sailboats. They pivot on the keel."
I still use that technique with the trawler (sorta). Forward momentum established and use prop walk, wheel hard over, occasional burst forward to pivot (with twins). Timed right the boat rotates and slides sideways into the dock. Not sure if it would work with a single.

It absolutely works same way with a single. But only on its favored side.

Some time back, Rslifkin noted that one way of looking at driving a twin screw boat is to consider it a pair of singles. Right engine has a right-hand prop; left engine a left-hand prop. Approach a side-tie at a 45-degree angle at slow speed, helm centered. Point the bow roughly where you want it to end-up, usually abreast a cleat. A common visual from the flybridge is when the dock "disappears" beneath the bow (you're still 10-15 feet off the dock - seems close but you're not), put the outside engine (furthest away from dock) in reverse and burp the RPMs to slow the boat and use prop-walk to spin the stern into the dock. Normally, no 'inboard' engine is needed - in fact, if the engine closest to dock is put in forward, it often causes the boat to end-up several feet off the dock.

To Rslifkin's point, a Twin is two singles and ambidextrious.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

Peter I find approaching a dock when possible at 90* works better than 45* as that forward momentum is not pointed at the landing spot.

 

[rslifkin]

The ideal angle to approach at all depends on how big a spot you're trying to get into on a face dock, what the wind and current are doing, and the behavior of the boat you're on. I've been known to occasionally approach in the opposite direction for a tight spot in calm conditions and make a 180* to slide the boat into the spot.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks for the wisdom. Gonna practice some of this stuff then put it to use. Think The biggest step is to get in and out of a few tight places with the thrusters. Then add stuff in so you use them less and less. Need the saw “slow is pro” or don’t go faster than you want to hit anything. Knew from the sailboat once I had a spring on odds of anything bad happening was slim. End up nearly always adjusting dock lines anyway so before starting we talk through which line first, second…… just want a line that will stop us from hitting anything. Downside of the freedom lift is my dinghy is way aft. No way to put a fender at that corner. Pretty much always back off if between two boats if wind it pinning me to the dock. Excellent point.

Also I’m not ashamed to ask for a particular side. Usually want my bow into the wind or allowing me to drift into the dock if a crosswind.

 

[mvweebles]

I drove a lot of different boats. I had my routine and didn't stray too far unless necessary - approach at ~45-degrees with bow pointed to where I wanted it to end-up, not behind, not ahead (some clean-up may be needed). Circumstances may require going past and returning; or making a 90-degree turn, whatever. But if possible, the last boat length (or more) was at ~45-degrees.

Everyone has to find their own method, but for me, this worked well because I could predictably land between two boats on a side-tie such as a guest/fuel dock. As long as I know the boat will fit, all I have to do is keep the bow very close to the boat ahead.

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat and you have to figure out what works for you and your crew, especially if the boat is difficult to board/de-board. I am surprisingly rusty these days and really need to spend some quality time practicing.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I drove a lot of different boats. I had my routine and didn't stray too far unless necessary - approach at ~45-degrees with bow pointed to where I wanted it to end-up, not behind, not ahead (some clean-up may be needed). Circumstances may require going past and returning; or making a 90-degree turn, whatever. But if possible, the last boat length (or more) was at ~45-degrees.

Everyone has to find their own method, but for me, this worked well because I could predictably land between two boats on a side-tie such as a guest/fuel dock. As long as I know the boat will fit, all I have to do is keep the bow very close to the boat ahead.

There are a lot of ways to skin a cat and you have to figure out what works for you and your crew, especially if the boat is difficult to board/de-board. I am surprisingly rusty these days and really need to spend some quality time practicing.

Peter