My John Deere decided to take some time off

[O C Diver]

From Wednesday 06.21.23

Speaking of the Coastguard, things aren't going so well right now. John Deere decided to take some time off.



For those who aren't familiar with my projects, I swapped the engine in my boat for a John Deere 4045TFM75. It's a tier 2 diesel that is mechanically injected but electronically controlled. This means the fuel injection pump is electronically controlled by an ECM (Electronic Control Module [computer]). Basically, when you turn the key on, the ECM checks the solenoid control circuit, then the solenoid is activated and moves the throttle position to idle speed. Once you start the engine, increasing the throttle, increases voltage from the ECM to the solenoid, which changes the injection pump setting.

On Wednesday afternoon the engine shutdown. The error message on the display read:
HIGH PRESSURE FUEL PUMP CONTROL VALVE CIRCUIT HAS HIGH RESISTANCE.
The ECM frequently checks the control valve circuit for high resistance, and sensing it, turns the solenoid off. Unfortunately, there is no bypass or get home at high idle mode.

This happened to me in 2017. The resistance limit is about 7 ohms. When it happened, I called the dealer from 5 miles off the shore of Lake Superior. He walked me through the fix. The connectors for the wiring harness are environmentally sealed and self wiping. Basically, removing the connector and replacing it a couple of times wipes the contact surfaces. Removing and replacing the connectors on the ECM and the solenoid resolved the problem. It happened a few days later. This time I cleaned all the surfaces with contact cleaner, enhancer and corrosion inhibiter. Problem solved till last Wednesday.

On Wednesday I repeated my cleaning process. No joy. The dealer I bought the engine from has retired. The boatyard I normally use, now has the franchise. Bobby (one of the owners) was a JD mechanic for several years with an agriculture franchise. He sends me the schematics and diagnostic pages via email (Starlink high speed internet is a beautiful thing!). I disassemble the circuit and check resistance for each component and wire. The wiring harness is only allowed 0.5 ohms of resistance on each lead. The multi meter has more resistance in its wires and probes. Add to that, resistance changes in a hot engine room. So its a game of measuring resistance and subtracting the multi meter's resistance, that keeps changing. Clean everything and put it back together again. It starts; runs 30 seconds; then it dies. Time to get a tow to a harbor of refuge.

Apparently having unlimited BoatUS towing insurance means very little. The BoatUS tow guy didn't want to come 35 miles, tow me, and make a very nice paycheck. Will have to rethink the value of that insurance. USCG came; did a very professional job; had me to the dock by 10:30pm at Port Sanilac. In the rack by 11pm.

Up at 4am to try to solve the problem. Take it all apart again including the cap that converts the coil studs to the Deere connector. Clean everything again and measure all the resistances, again. Including the cap that converts the coil studs to Deere connector, there are 4 connections on each wire. I get a little stuff, but mostly corrosion inhibiter, for all my cleaning.




Put it all back together again and it fires right up. I've been here before. I wait 20 minutes without a hiccup before casting off the lines and head out. 30 minutes and about 2 miles North, it quits again.

Drop the hook and take it apart again to see what I might have missed. This time I zip tie the ECM to the wiring harness as oppose to bolting it to the mounting plate. Engine fires right up and hasn't quit since.


Go back to the marina and wait to call Bobby. We talk about the problem. I think the ECM has gotten heat sensitive. He thinks it's probably resistance in the loop or a bad ground. Further, he says he's never seen an ECM fail and then come back to life, repeatedly.

I head out the next morning and the engine runs flawlessly. While cruising, I decided to use the infrared temperature gun on ECM.

This is the temperature of the ECM in a 104 degree engine room.


This is the mounting plate for the ECM which is bolted to the crankcase.


This is the ECM remounted to the plate with 3/4" plastic standoffs.


Found out Tuesday that replacing the ECM ($1,800) will also require a technician with the magic software, to download the ECM files while attached to the engine, switch ECMs, and then upload the computer files. Without the magic software, you can't just have a second ECM on the boat as a backup.

Also learned that heat increases resistance in wiring and connections. Have traveled over 350 miles since the last hiccup and am trying to figure out a plan going forward.

Open to suggestions.

Ted

 

[KnotYet]

Interesting problem and troubleshooting.
Have you looked for a John Deere owner's forum that may have posts regarding
the same sort of problem? I would expect that some savvy farmers have a work-
around or programming tools to address this. They can't wait around for a tech.

 

[rslifkin]

I've seen an ECU flake out at high temperatures before, but that was an automotive application. And the failures it was exhibiting weren't anything logical. But unlike your situation, it wasn't showing just a single symptom and it wasn't throwing any codes.

 

[CharlieO.]

According to this they say you can order a preloaded ECU for an extra cost. Not sure on the validity of that statement, any way might be worth pursuing to see if it is really an option.

https://www.frontierpower.com/service/swapjdecu.htm

 

[dannc]

According to this they say you can order a preloaded ECU for an extra cost. Not sure on the validity of that statement, any way might be worth pursuing to see if it is really an option.

https://www.frontierpower.com/service/swapjdecu.htm

I think that is new. In the past, my understanding was the JD would NOT sell a spare ECU to boat owners. There was a settlement/agreement this year to allow non JD dealers to repair JD equipment. It was pushed by farming groups but maybe it has helpped out boat owners.

Given the risk a boat owner has with a dead engine from a dead ECU, JD's stance has been appalling.

Later,
Dan

 

[O C Diver]

Interesting problem and troubleshooting.
Have you looked for a John Deere owner's forum that may have posts regarding
the same sort of problem? I would expect that some savvy farmers have a work-
around or programming tools to address this. They can't wait around for a tech.

I haven't checked for a Deere forum. My guess though is that most other applications have a fan on the engine and a better fresh air cooling situation. I'm not convinced now that there is a problem with the ECM as opposed to the wiring or something else. I believe the fault code is correct, only not sure where the increased resistance is coming from.

Ted

 

[Comodave]

Maybe put a small fan blowing on the ECM.

 

[O C Diver]

According to this they say you can order a preloaded ECU for an extra cost. Not sure on the validity of that statement, any way might be worth pursuing to see if it is really an option.

https://www.frontierpower.com/service/swapjdecu.htm

That may be worth considering as an option, but I'm no longer convinced the ECM is bad. Would really like to determine whether the high resistance is in the ECM or elsewhere.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Maybe put a small fan blowing on the ECM.

I have considered that and the wiring connecting it to the solenoid.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Intermittent problems are the worst. IF, perish the thought, it re-occurs, might you take a freezer gel-pack and forcibly cool various components or perhaps, one of those spray can freeze thingys? Just a thought.

 

[AquaAura]

So it hasn't failed since you zip tied it off the mounting bracket? I would just make a non heat conducting stand off so it is spaced off the original mount and also add a fan.


I would also be calling boat tow and getting a refund from them.

 

[twistedtree]

By all indications it's a heat problem. Is permanently mounting the ECU away from the engine a possibility? Will the cables reach?


I recall hearing about an ECU heat problem in some older Deere model. There were two different ECUs with different temp ratings, and some engines were using the lower temp ECU. Switching to the higher temp ECU solved the problems. Might be worth checking to see if there are different ECUs for different 4045 applications. Being mounted right on the block with no air flow seems problematic. Mine is remote mounted, though a different variant of the 4045.

 

[AquaAura]

You could use reflective insulation behind the ECU as well.

 

[Simi 60]

I am clueless to these things appart from knowing I do not want them for these reasons
But what would happen if you ripped it all of and binned it?

Thinking back to early days anti pollution gear on cars,
Ripping stuff off and filling a box full of bits seemed common

 

[rslifkin]

I am clueless to these things appart from knowing I do not want them for these reasons
But what would happen if you ripped it all of and binned it?

Thinking back to early days anti pollution gear on cars,
Ripping stuff off and filling a box full of bits seemed common

On most newer engines, if you remove the electronics, it doesn't run. It's not like the early days of electronics where they kludged some control bits onto an existing mechanical system.

 

[O C Diver]

Greetings,
Mr. OC. Intermittent problems are the worst. IF, perish the thought, it re-occurs, might you take a freezer gel-pack and forcibly cool various components or perhaps, one of those spray can freeze thingys? Just a thought.

I appreciate the thought, but I'm not sure the chips would tolerate a hundred degree swing in seconds. Probably just let a fan blow on it for a while.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

By all indications it's a heat problem. Is permanently mounting the ECU away from the engine a possibility? Will the cables reach?


I recall hearing about an ECU heat problem in some older Deere model. There were two different ECUs with different temp ratings, and some engines were using the lower temp ECU. Switching to the higher temp ECU solved the problems. Might be worth checking to see if there are different ECUs for different 4045 applications. Being mounted right on the block with no air flow seems problematic. Mine is remote mounted, though a different variant of the 4045.

The wire from the ECU to the solenoid might be 16".

Will check to seeif there are high temperature ECUs. But then, why would you keep making the low temperature ones?

It's clear to me that something in the circuit needs cooling. Will probably start with a fan until other options present themselves.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

I am clueless to these things appart from knowing I do not want them for these reasons
But what would happen if you ripped it all of and binned it?

Thinking back to early days anti pollution gear on cars,
Ripping stuff off and filling a box full of bits seemed common

If it could be done, I'm thinking it would cost many boat units to convert the injection to mechanical, all the gauges and sensors, and then rewire the start and run circuits.

I've got over 5,000 hours on the engine without anything other than expected maintenance. I'll work my way through this and keep doing what I'm doing.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Will check to seeif there are high temperature ECUs. But then, why would you keep making the low temperature ones?

I think someone earlier touched on the reason - in many applications there is constant airflow across the engine at ambient temperature, but not in a marine application where there is little to no air flow, and a potentially high ambient.

 

[slowgoesit]

The wire from the ECU to the solenoid might be 16".

Will check to seeif there are high temperature ECUs. But then, why would you keep making the low temperature ones?

Ted

Why would they keep making low temp ECU's? I think you answered the question when you said they sell new ones for $1,800.00!

I too had heard that they won't sell you replacement ECU's as spares, only as exchanges when they failed. I've heard of at least one circum-navigator who chose an engine other than a John Deere for just this very reason.

Best of luck getting to the bottom of the problem!

 

[Insequent]

I have a JD 6068TFM75. Sounds like the OP's with 2 more pots. My injector pump is a Bosch VP44.

Three years ago I had a high water alarm from one of on-engine fuel filters. This led to a situation where the engine would start and run normally until I came back to idle to enter the berth It would then alarm. Shutting down and then re-starting would then allow the engine to run again without alarming. This resulted in discussion with the dealer and commencement of using the JD fuel conditioner. What happened next is covered by some extracts from emails.

1. Following the service before Easter I went for a cruise a few days ago. I ran for about 4 hours, without any issues. After about 3 hours I took the engines up to 2000 rpm for about 15 minutes, and then to 2550 rpm for about 5 minutes. Both engines were running perfectly, although gulping a lot of fuel! I have used the fuel treatment stuff.

Approaching the anchorage i throttled back to idle, and the Starboard engine alarm went off, as it has done 80% of the time for the last 8 or so long runs. This morning however that engine would not start. It spins over freely, but will not fire up. On looking at the error codes there is now an additional one - 1076.

The full codes and text are (SPN the FMI):
1569 31 Engine Power Derate
1078 31 Fuel Injection Pump Spd/Pos Sensor Condition Exists
1077 31 Fuel injection Pump Control Valve Control Valve Condition Exists
1076 2 Fuel Injection Pump Control Valve Invalid

So its pretty clear I am now at "pump off" situation, unfortunately.

2.Good Morning Brian,

We use a local fuel injection specialist to rebuild these pumps.
They have the test bench etc which is required to run them up.
As long as the water damage isn’t too extensive this is usually the most economical option.

A new unit is currently available ex USA - $8735.28 incl GST
A factory remanufactured unit is currently available ex Melbourne warehouse - $7149.89 incl GST

Removal and replacement of the injection pump from the engine requires a few special tools to set up the timing.
So we normally take care of this part of the procedure.


3.Good Morning Brian,

The feedback on the condition of the pump was that overall wear etc was minimal but there was the small amount of water damage we discussed.
They provided the attached pictures showing the corrosion it caused.
The cause of total stoppage was electronic.
But they could not determine for sure if this was related to the water ingress or just an age / heat related electronic failure.

4. The repair of the injector pump was $3,438.50. Its run fine ever since......


For the engine in question I had twice received a high temp alarm at the helm. I shut down the engine immediately and resolved the issue, but the engine and attached injector pump was quite hot. The first time I had forgotten to open the water intake valve after cleaning the filter. The second time was after I had filled the filter with mud after cutting a corner at slow speed near an island in southern Moreton Bay. So the pump ECM had been through a couple of heat cycles.
Then in 1. above I ran the engine at high rpm and load hoping to get the condoned fuel to get rid of the last traces of water that may be in the fuel.
But no alarms during this exercise. However, it was likely the final straw - the ECM said "I don't like being hot...."

I think the cable tie mounting is a good idea. A fan would be a good idea also. But I suspect your ECM is toast, just not burnt and dead yet.

 

[O C Diver]

So I had an optimistic thought.

Let's say the ECU reaches a temperature of 170 degrees or more when it's bolted to the plate on the engine block. After hours of cruising, wouldn't the ECM be 170 degrees and by connection (conduction) the multi pin connector and some portion of the wiring harness? If the ECM is mounted as it now is, doesn't that reduce the temperature of the above components?

While the ECM may still not be as heat tolerate as it once was, could the resistance in the control valve circuit (reason for the ECM shutdown) be lower as a function of lower ECM temperature?

While I know heat increases resistance in electrical circuits, I don't know if a change of 40 degrees or more would be enough to make a difference.

Thoughts?

Ted

 

[BruceK]

... While the ECM may still not be as heat tolerate as it once was, could the resistance in the control valve circuit (reason for the ECM shutdown) be lower as a function of lower ECM temperature?

While I know heat increases resistance in electrical circuits, I don't know if a change of 40 degrees or more would be enough to make a difference.

Thoughts?

Ted

Just some thoughts. Why would the ECM`s heat tolerance change? Age? Long term heat exposure? What altered to reduce tolerance? If it doesn`t change, is the cause otherwise, and what is it?

 

[Insequent]

Thermal cycling and high temp are both causes of failure. A couple of links attached. Easy to find more with Google. Something that JD needs to address if they have not done so already. As commented up-thread, marine ER's just do not get the same airflow's around the engine that occurs with agricultural equipment

https://www.manufacturing.net/home/...quipment-failures-cause-effect-and-resolution

https://www.ansys.com/blog/thermal-cycling-failure-in-electronics

 

[lwarden]

The ECM is likely using a reference resistor that the CPU is doing a comparison against to the pump circuit. These reference resistors change resistance with temperature to some degree. If it's a very sensitive and low resistance change being measured, the increase in temperature of the ECM may be enough to affect the reference resistor value and trigger an alarm. Or, the reference resistor itself or soldering may be weakened due to heat cycling. Keeping the ECM cool is just a good idea all around so separating it from the engine and adding a heat sink or fan seems like a good plan.

Also, just wondering if there is a difference due to removing any grounding on the ECM by zip tying it away from the block. If it is now not grounded then perhaps this is due to a ground loop issue?

Just guesses...

 

[Eli27]

From Wednesday 06.21.23

Speaking of the Coastguard, things aren't going so well right now. John Deere decided to take some time off.

View attachment 140084

For those who aren't familiar with my projects, I swapped the engine in my boat for a John Deere 4045TFM75. It's a tier 2 diesel that is mechanically injected but electronically controlled. This means the fuel injection pump is electronically controlled by an ECM (Electronic Control Module [computer]). Basically, when you turn the key on, the ECM checks the solenoid control circuit, then the solenoid is activated and moves the throttle position to idle speed. Once you start the engine, increasing the throttle, increases voltage from the ECM to the solenoid, which changes the injection pump setting.

On Wednesday afternoon the engine shutdown. The error message on the display read:
HIGH PRESSURE FUEL PUMP CONTROL VALVE CIRCUIT HAS HIGH RESISTANCE.
The ECM frequently checks the control valve circuit for high resistance, and sensing it, turns the solenoid off. Unfortunately, there is no bypass or get home at high idle mode.

This happened to me in 2017. The resistance limit is about 7 ohms. When it happened, I called the dealer from 5 miles off the shore of Lake Superior. He walked me through the fix. The connectors for the wiring harness are environmentally sealed and self wiping. Basically, removing the connector and replacing it a couple of times wipes the contact surfaces. Removing and replacing the connectors on the ECM and the solenoid resolved the problem. It happened a few days later. This time I cleaned all the surfaces with contact cleaner, enhancer and corrosion inhibiter. Problem solved till last Wednesday.

On Wednesday I repeated my cleaning process. No joy. The dealer I bought the engine from has retired. The boatyard I normally use, now has the franchise. Bobby (one of the owners) was a JD mechanic for several years with an agriculture franchise. He sends me the schematics and diagnostic pages via email (Starlink high speed internet is a beautiful thing!). I disassemble the circuit and check resistance for each component and wire. The wiring harness is only allowed 0.5 ohms of resistance on each lead. The multi meter has more resistance in its wires and probes. Add to that, resistance changes in a hot engine room. So its a game of measuring resistance and subtracting the multi meter's resistance, that keeps changing. Clean everything and put it back together again. It starts; runs 30 seconds; then it dies. Time to get a tow to a harbor of refuge.

Apparently having unlimited BoatUS towing insurance means very little. The BoatUS tow guy didn't want to come 35 miles, tow me, and make a very nice paycheck. Will have to rethink the value of that insurance. USCG came; did a very professional job; had me to the dock by 10:30pm at Port Sanilac. In the rack by 11pm.

Up at 4am to try to solve the problem. Take it all apart again including the cap that converts the coil studs to the Deere connector. Clean everything again and measure all the resistances, again. Including the cap that converts the coil studs to Deere connector, there are 4 connections on each wire. I get a little stuff, but mostly corrosion inhibiter, for all my cleaning.
View attachment 140085

View attachment 140086

Put it all back together again and it fires right up. I've been here before. I wait 20 minutes without a hiccup before casting off the lines and head out. 30 minutes and about 2 miles North, it quits again.

Drop the hook and take it apart again to see what I might have missed. This time I zip tie the ECM to the wiring harness as oppose to bolting it to the mounting plate. Engine fires right up and hasn't quit since.
View attachment 140087

Go back to the marina and wait to call Bobby. We talk about the problem. I think the ECM has gotten heat sensitive. He thinks it's probably resistance in the loop or a bad ground. Further, he says he's never seen an ECM fail and then come back to life, repeatedly.

I head out the next morning and the engine runs flawlessly. While cruising, I decided to use the infrared temperature gun on ECM.

This is the temperature of the ECM in a 104 degree engine room.
View attachment 140088

This is the mounting plate for the ECM which is bolted to the crankcase.
View attachment 140089

This is the ECM remounted to the plate with 3/4" plastic standoffs.
View attachment 140090

Found out Tuesday that replacing the ECM ($1,800) will also require a technician with the magic software, to download the ECM files while attached to the engine, switch ECMs, and then upload the computer files. Without the magic software, you can't just have a second ECM on the boat as a backup.

Also learned that heat increases resistance in wiring and connections. Have traveled over 350 miles since the last hiccup and am trying to figure out a plan going forward.

Open to suggestions.

Ted

Strictly from the automotive world. I change ECMs 4-5 times a yr due to heat issues.

If you want, to verify 100% put a heat gun on the ecm for a few minutes before starting up and while its running. If its the ecm getting hot, it will shut down.

And this my friends is what sucks about this whole BS of ECMs. I understand them better than most and have replaced literally hundreds of ECMs in the past 20yrs. AND,,,,,, diagnosed most of them. Not much of a parts replacer and see what happens here.

 

[Jeff F]

When it quit the second time did you get the same DTC? And were your instruments like temperature working?

If you want to fully understand the function of the ECM you need to understand the Standyne DE10 injection pump. The ECM controls the injection timing and duration. It's not a solenoid. I can send you a 550 page document that has derailed technical and troubleshooting info on the pump and ECM. It's too big to upload here.

TECHNICAL MANUAL

POWERTECH 4.5 L & 6.8 L Diesel

Engines—Level 12 Electronic Fuel

System with DE10 Pump

03OCT05 (ENGLISH)

Based on what you've said I'd suspect a failing component in the IP rather than a failing ECM. From my experience the fix is a reconditioned pump if that is the issue.

Jeff

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[Nick F]

Quote - If you want, to verify 100% put a heat gun on the ecm for a few minutes before starting up and while its running. If its the ecm getting hot, it will shut down. - unquote

Excellent idea!

 

[Comodave]

I would not want to heat it up too much, you could cause a permanent failure. It would be much simpler and safer to put a fan on it blowing cooler air from low in the engine room up onto the ECU. That way it may cure the problem and it won’t trash the expensive ECU. Not saying you would hurt the ECU with a heat gun but it would be too bad if you did cause it to fail permanently, then you get to pay a lot of dollars for a new one that may fail periodically as it gets hot also.

 

[twistedtree]

When it quit the second time did you get the same DTC? And were your instruments like temperature working?

If you want to fully understand the function of the ECM you need to understand the Standyne DE10 injection pump. The ECM controls the injection timing and duration. It's not a solenoid. I can send you a 550 page document that has derailed technical and troubleshooting info on the pump and ECM. It's too big to upload here.

TECHNICAL MANUAL

POWERTECH 4.5 L & 6.8 L Diesel

Engines—Level 12 Electronic Fuel

System with DE10 Pump

03OCT05 (ENGLISH)

Based on what you've said I'd suspect a failing component in the IP rather than a failing ECM. From my experience the fix is a reconditioned pump if that is the issue.

Jeff

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

Are we sure that's the pump in his engine? I know Deere has used quite a few over the years for various combinations of power output and emissions.