My John Deere decided to take some time off

[O C Diver]

The ECM is likely using a reference resistor that the CPU is doing a comparison against to the pump circuit. These reference resistors change resistance with temperature to some degree. If it's a very sensitive and low resistance change being measured, the increase in temperature of the ECM may be enough to affect the reference resistor value and trigger an alarm. Or, the reference resistor itself or soldering may be weakened due to heat cycling. Keeping the ECM cool is just a good idea all around so separating it from the engine and adding a heat sink or fan seems like a good plan.

Also, just wondering if there is a difference due to removing any grounding on the ECM by zip tying it away from the block. If it is now not grounded then perhaps this is due to a ground loop issue?

Just guesses...

Thanks! Much appreciated the knowledge on the reference resistor.

Regarding the ground:
The ECM wiring harness has it's own positive and negative power supply wires. It's required to be hooked directly to the battery to avoid low voltage to the ECM during engine cranking.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Strictly from the automotive world. I change ECMs 4-5 times a yr due to heat issues.

If you want, to verify 100% put a heat gun on the ecm for a few minutes before starting up and while its running. If its the ecm getting hot, it will shut down.

And this my friends is what sucks about this whole BS of ECMs. I understand them better than most and have replaced literally hundreds of ECMs in the past 20yrs. AND,,,,,, diagnosed most of them. Not much of a parts replacer and see what happens here.

Appreciate the diagnostic thought on the heat gun. However, right now everything is working and I'm not going to risk that until I get back to my JD dealer.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

When it quit the second time did you get the same DTC? And were your instruments like temperature working?

If you want to fully understand the function of the ECM you need to understand the Standyne DE10 injection pump. The ECM controls the injection timing and duration. It's not a solenoid. I can send you a 550 page document that has derailed technical and troubleshooting info on the pump and ECM. It's too big to upload here.

TECHNICAL MANUAL

POWERTECH 4.5 L & 6.8 L Diesel

Engines—Level 12 Electronic Fuel

System with DE10 Pump

03OCT05 (ENGLISH)

Based on what you've said I'd suspect a failing component in the IP rather than a failing ECM. From my experience the fix is a reconditioned pump if that is the issue.

Jeff

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

I get the same DTC each time it quits. All my other instruments continue to work. The engine isn't running warm as the coolant temperature is about 178 degrees and I'm only consuming 1.5 GPH.

Yes, I have the same Standyne DE10 injection pump. My JD diagnostic troubleshooting document refers to it as a solenoid.



I would appreciate the document you have and will PM you my email address.

While I'm not going to tell you that it can't be the electronic control in the injection pump, the resistance for the coil is correct and moving the ECM away from the heat source seems to have solved the problem, maybe only temporarily. Other than cleaning contact surfaces, I've done nothing to the pump.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

While I'm not going to tell you that it can't be the electronic control in the injection pump, the resistance for the coil is correct and moving the ECM away from the heat source seems to have solved the problem, maybe only temporarily. Other than cleaning contact surfaces, I've done nothing to the pump.

I'm not going to argue strongly either way.

When I was dealing with a failing ECM last summer I noticed it getting warm, and I unmounted it from the motor and temporarily mounted it on a stringer a few inches away. It worked fine for a week or two before failing again.

My symptoms were different though. The ECM would randomly turn off completely while running, then decide to work again after being shut off for a while. There were no DTCs.

Keep in mind that resistance on the pump may vary according to heat or other factors. It seems to me to be plausible that resistance goes out of bounds while running, but measures fine at rest.


Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[Mako]

I too had heard that they won't sell you replacement ECU's as spares, only as exchanges when they failed. I've heard of at least one circum-navigator who chose an engine other than a John Deere for just this very reason.

It's a shame the company takes that stance - what do you do when you're in Patagonia?

When I contacted Agco-Sisu and asked if they would sell me an engine and a spare set of sensors, pre-programmed ECU and diagnostic tools, they didn't even blink an eye. It's good customer service and good money to them.

 

[O C Diver]

Keep in mind that resistance on the pump may vary according to heat or other factors. It seems to me to be plausible that resistance goes out of bounds while running, but measures fine at rest.

That may be, but I don't think there's much change in the pump temperature. As the throttle position is the same for hours and hours, and the pump is liquid cooled with a 300 gallon reservoir. When next I cruise all day, I'm going to measure the pump temperature.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

That may be, but I don't think there's much change in the pump temperature. As the throttle position is the same for hours and hours, and the pump is liquid cooled with a 300 gallon reservoir. When next I cruise all day, I'm going to measure the pump temperature.



Ted

You should be able to call up fuel temperature at the pump through the dashboard display. I think that's a good proxy for IP temperature. But electronics can fail for reasons beyond out of bound temperatures. Also high fuel temperature causes a different DTC IIRC.

I'd be inclined to trust the ECU in this case and focus on the component that's triggering the DTC once you've confirmed that the connections are sound. It doesn't sound to me like an ECU issue, but I'm far from an expert.

I sent you the doc.

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[The Brockerts]

"Apparently having unlimited BoatUS towing insurance means very little. The BoatUS tow guy didn't want to come 35 miles, tow me, and make a very nice paycheck. Will have to rethink the value of that insurance"

Yep similar experience with BoatUS towing. Mine only had to come 15 miles. Took them 3 days to get to me, just got it fixed and running when he got there.

The Brockerts

 

[High Wire]

Fwiw I’ve used seatow five times over four different boats with nothing but praise. Stuff happens when you have a single screw.

 

[O C Diver]

Fwiw I’ve used seatow five times over four different boats with nothing but praise. Stuff happens when you have a single screw.

I have both plus major towing coverage on my boat insurance policy. Had a good friend who ran the BoatUS franchise out of Ocean City, MD. As a charter boat, the understanding was that he would come get you and claim it as a recreational boat. He had no issues going 80 miles offshore to get you. Kept the insurance after he passed away and I retired. In 1,500 charters I used him once.

Have Seatow also. It's a different business model. I'm happy to support the local guy who's a small business like I was. Unfortunately there wasn't a Seatow franchise anywhere near me on Wednesday.

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

As far as I know, SeaTow isn't anywhere on the Great Lakes these days. For TowBoatUS, it seems to depend on the situation and how busy they are. Our local franchise has gone some decent distances to go retrieve a boat, but I've also seen them decline and let the USCG take a tow if they're busy, or if the tow boat guy is on call, but not at the boat and it's something the CG will have over and done with before the guy even gets the tow boat out of the slip.



In my mind, it's well worth paying for the membership. Not because I expect to need it, but because it helps make sure the service is available to all of the poorly prepared small boat owners that seem to need it frequently. If it weren't for the common towing services, I'm sure I'd end up towing far more of them in.

 

[alormaria]

Sorry for your troubles.



Just a thought; is the original engine still available?

 

[O C Diver]

Sorry for your troubles.



Just a thought; is the original engine still available?

The original engine was removed and sold 9 years ago. While it would have been nice to have purchased this engine as a mechanically injected non turbo with 80 HP, those had been discontinued maybe 5 years earlier.

I'm still happy with my choice and believe once the problem is correctly identified and resolved, it will continue to be reliable. I don't know if the number of these engines in a tier 2 version are more than a hundred thousand, but they are in boats, farming equipment, logging, and generators. Clearly my problem doesn't plague this model.

Ted

 

[North Baltic sea]

Hi,

hopefully the matter will be resolved, because the uncertainty is stressful, even if the engine works again.

Sometimes the cause of the problem can be a completely different object than the engine.

For me it was a fire boy wire connection when the engine refused to start (Cummings qsb). I supported many logical things and could not find a reasonable reason and believed that the electronics had failed.

The wife started cooking and I started the generator and found it too dead NL 5Kw, fully mechanical. This gave me the idea of ​​what connects the genny and the main engine, it was an automatic fire extinguisher in the engine room. I found a loose joint that had opened, latest joint and everything worked again.

NBs

 

[Lepke]

Seems like you could replace the injector pump and injectors with mechanical ones and be done with unreliability for good. Electronics will never be as reliable as mechanical. It may not burn as clean or get as good of mileage, but you can move the boat when you want without many $ of spares. Reliability is the reason I have mechanical engines and will continue to have until they take the Detroit start buttons out of my cold dead hands.


I have an older diesel PU that is much like your JD. The engine is great when it runs. When they get older there are many electronic failures. My latest is a short in the engine wiring harness. I ordered a new one for $500. When I go more than a hundred miles away I carry a few thousand $ in spares. That's not always enough. I had a $300 tow bill list month.

 

[ScottC]

I have no useful suggestions to contribute, but I wish you the best of luck resolving this soon, Ted!

 

[Nick F]

Seems like you could replace the injector pump and injectors with mechanical ones and be done with unreliability for good. Electronics will never be as reliable as mechanical. . . . .

+1 !

 

[Jeff F]

Are we sure that's the pump in his engine? I know Deere has used quite a few over the years for various combinations of power output and emissions.

I should have mentioned earlier that Ted and I have sister engines. I got deep into the weeds with mine last year...

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[kmacdonald]

Heat will not make a significant difference in resistance. Look elsewhere.

 

[Takoradi]

JD and Apple appear to be the poster children for the "right to repair" movement that is gaining ground. The impact to Ukrainian farmers when russia invaded put a very public spotlight on the issue.

"Tractor maker John Deere has agreed to give its US customers the right to fix their own equipment. Previously, farmers were only allowed to use authorised parts and service facilities rather than cheaper independent repair options."

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913

Tak

 

[dannc]

JD and Apple appear to be the poster children for the "right to repair" movement that is gaining ground. The impact to Ukrainian farmers when russia invaded put a very public spotlight on the issue.
...

Tak

I read a report early in Putin's War where John Deere disabled equipment that had been stolen from Ukraine and taken to Russia. My ASSUMPTION was that the equipment was leased....

Later,
Dan

 

[Brooksie]

Does the ECM get it's ground through the mounting bolts? I would assume not but bad grounds and grounding through engine blocks is at the root of many problems.
Also what about moving it right off the engine onto a bracket with or w/o it's own heat sink, vibration isolators & direct ground connection?

 

[Wolfhound]

This is making the old Lehmans look pretty good.
https://everythingaboutboats.org/lehman-6d380/

 

[Always Late]

I have owned 2 twin screw push boats that I repowered with 6125AFM75 tier 2 back in 2007. The temperature in the engine rooms averaged 140 degrees when fans were turned off and running under near full load and never had the problems you are having. Only difference is that the ECM's were remotely mounted away from the engines so no direct contact to the heat of the engines. Kept the boats for about 10 years and never had an ECM issue. I think I would be looking elsewhere for the cause.

 

[O C Diver]

Seems like you could replace the injector pump and injectors with mechanical ones and be done with unreliability for good. Electronics will never be as reliable as mechanical. It may not burn as clean or get as good of mileage, but you can move the boat when you want without many $ of spares. Reliability is the reason I have mechanical engines and will continue to have until they take the Detroit start buttons out of my cold dead hands.

This was covered in post 18. Many thousands of dollars to convert the pump, injectors, gauges, and sensors to mechanical, if it can be done.

I've run Detroits, and they have there Achilles heels also. You make your choice based on a good track record, and hope you get a good one.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

I have no useful suggestions to contribute, but I wish you the best of luck resolving this soon, Ted!

Thanks!

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Does the ECM get it's ground through the mounting bolts? I would assume not but bad grounds and grounding through engine blocks is at the root of many problems.
Also what about moving it right off the engine onto a bracket with or w/o it's own heat sink, vibration isolators & direct ground connection?

The ECM is powered directly from the battery for both positive and negative. It's imperative to avoid low voltage while cranking.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Does the ECM get it's ground through the mounting bolts? I would assume not but bad grounds and grounding through engine blocks is at the root of many problems.
Also what about moving it right off the engine onto a bracket with or w/o it's own heat sink, vibration isolators & direct ground connection?

I think the harness length is what limits where he can mount the ECU. It’s probably ridiculously expensive, but Deere makes a couple of different harnesses, some of which allow for remote mounting. My ECU is several feet away from the engine, for example.

 

[O C Diver]

So an update:

M/V Weebles put me in contact with Bob who worked forJD at the time my engine was made, worked for Lugger and Northern Lights as a company representative for problems with these engines.

He read through the post to get an idea what was going on and offer his take with some helpful advice. While the problem isn't eliminated, I think were narrowing it down.

The ECM I have is the high temperature version (105 degrees Centigrade). These are extremely reliable and Bob indicates that he's not aware of any that have failed.

The Stanadyne DC-10 is also exceptionally reliable. Lugger / Northern Lights has literally built thousands of propulsion engines and generators with the DC-10 fuel system.

His likely cause for my problem was corrosion on contacts from the ECM to the pump. He recommended cleaning with a good contact cleaner only and then using an enhancer, corrosion protective (Stabilant 22). This is a mil-spec product that's supposed to be equivalent to soldering the wires together.

I disassembled the connections and cleaned them with straight contact cleaner. And thoroughly reexamined everything. Then put it all back together again. Up until this point, I had put 60 hours on the engine since the last shutdown. On Sunday I traveled from Munising to Marquette. After about 3 hours the problem reoccured. It took a couple of attempts to resolve it, but then was able to make it to Marquette without further issue. I put a fan in place blowing air on the ECM, wiring, and pump. While it reduces the temperature of the ECM, I'm not sure if it had any effect.

The ECM is down to 115 degrees F and the injection pump at several locations is 125 degrees F.

In summary, I put 60 hours on the pump and ECM without issue. I'm inclined to think I have a connection (resistance in the system) issue. It's been frustrating to not be able to find an obvious problem.

Ted

 

[MVCalypso]

This is making the old Lehmans look pretty good.
https://everythingaboutboats.org/lehman-6d380/

As a long time owner of two Lehman 135s, I want to say thanks for that doc link! I'd not run across that before and it looks really useful.


Dave