Opinion on Wakespeed regulators

[Pau Hana]

I was asked about my Wakespeed regulator install- I think they're fantastic!

Hopefully the below will assist those who are contemplating the install...

Peter,

If memory serves you are running twin CAT 3208s and upgraded your OEM alternators to higher output external regulation. Alternators purchased through Ballard Electric and you used Wakespeed WS500 regulator / controllers? That's what I'm thinking of doing. I'm using PM because I'm away from home now and searching on the phone is even worse than TF's usual search methods.

If you think this discussion would benefit the greater TF community I can start anew there.

Any hints, tips and problems to avoid geatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Ray

Hi, Ray,

Your memory is pretty spot on

I do have twin 3208TA (375hp) in the engine room that was originally equipped with 55A alternators. I purchased 2 Lee-Niceville 105A alternators, and had Ballard Electric reconfigure them to external regulation.

I then installed them, and used the Waskespeed WS500 regulators for control. I did look at the Balmar external regulators for a hot minute, but I saw Balmar as cumbersome and archaic relative to the Wakespeed technology. For example, connecting the Balmar regulators together requires wiring in a 3rd piece of gear (the centerfielder), then using a magnetic screwdriver to "program" the functionality.

With Wakespeed, it's a simple plug and play harness to wire up each alternator, then plugging in a standard CAT-5 cable to connect the regulators. You then download the specific battery charging profile into the regulators, and the Wakespeed regulators automatically determine master and slave.

One of the keys is to ensure that the external regulator and the Wakespeed cable match - they will be either P-type or N type. Have the alternator wired, then order the Wakespeed with the correct harness.

All this was part of the greater LFP journey I undertook to take full advantage of the new system.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Peter,

Thank you for the great reply!

 

[jungpeter]

Hi Pau Hana,

On my last boat, a Tolly 48 with twin 3208 CATS, I also did a refit on my DC electrical system. For many personal reasons, I chose AGM vs LFP architecture, and the Balmar external regulator/Centerfielder route. As the Wakespeed products were just coming on line, I somehow managed to miss the discussions regarding their architecture, design, pros/cons, etc. In retrospect, wish I'd have gone the Wakespeed route, for all the reasons you have suggested.

But mostly for the (in my opinion, at least) the primary advantage of the Wakespeed regulator, which manages not only battery voltage, but CURRENT as well. In my use case, the Balmar setup did a fine job of regulating battery voltage (it is, after all, a well respected voltage regulator) after being off-grid for a prolonged period. It also well-managed my state of charge (SOC) when back at the dock while plugged into shore power.

HOWEVER, and I think this is the Wakespeed's primary benefit, the Balmar setup ALWAYS full-fielded my alternators for a significant period of time immediately upon leaving shore power for a cruise, despite the fact the SOC was at 100%. I took some solace from Rod Collin's statement that he'd seen a bozillion battery systems ruined from UNDERCHARGE, but few from OVERCHARGE. Given the Wakespeed regulator manages both voltage and current into/out of the battery bank(s), this issue goes away.

So, in a kinda roundabout way, and despite not having personal experience with the Wakespeed regulator, I can add my $.02 in support of the Wakespeed regulator. I would certainly go that route in the future.

Regards,

Pete

 

[DDW]

I have installed a Wakespeed 500, removing a Balmar 614 to make space.

The Wakespeed is a generation ahead of any of the others, as it measures the actual current going into the battery, rather than guessing based on field current. The latter method doesn't even have a hope of being accurate, or even in the ball park many times.

If you have a Victron system (Cerbo) you can also monitor exactly what is happening by connecting it with a CAN cable. I had some issues with it switching to float prematurely, and began logging its activity anytime the engine was running. That can be done with a terminal emulator, but I found it a bit cumbersome to set up, so I wrote a Mac App that does this automatically. The cause of the premature switching was sudden steps in current from the inverter or toaster turning on and off. Wakespeed couldn't really figure it out, but the 2.5.0 firmware revision fixed this problem for me as collateral benefit from other refinements they had made (apparently).

One thing I discovered from constant monitoring is that it is helpful to limit the output to just above the steady state hot output of the alternators. When you start from cold, your 160A alternator will put out 160A, this only lasts 10 minutes or less then it gets hot and the temp sensor will cause the Wakespeed to derate, to keep the alternator frame below the temperature limit. Mine will derate to about 110 - 120A output. What will happen is if you allow 100% output it approaches that temperature on a steep slope, the regulator will back off a large amount to keep from overshooting, the temp drops, and the cycle repeats a few times before it settles down and captures. I found at steady state hot the field current was 80 - 81% at the temp limit. I set the max field current to 82%. Now the temperature rises smoothly to the hot limit and stays there. I should point out that the Balmar also does this.

 

[catalinajack]

If I were installing new, I would use the WS500 for all of the reasons stated. But, the Balmar 614 serves my needs just fine. As for programming, yes, it is cumbersome but pretty much straightforward and, once done, no need to fiddle. Rod Collins is a guy who knows what he is talking about so I do not worry a bit about bulk charging a full battery bank for a bit.

 

[sunchaser]

No argument with Wakespeed, LFPs or Balmar 614 usage. On a related thread Cafesport (a very smart guy) suggested the use of the genset to get your house bank partially charged up in the AM.

Whether right or wrong this is precisely what we do each AM. Seldom do we spend more than a night or two at an anchorage. Prior to lifting anchor the genset has been running for 45 minutes or so charging our three different battery setups. The genset is running when we hoist anchor to give maximum "oomph" to the windlass.

Once underway the house bank normally has dropped into the adsorb from bulk range keeping a significant load off the two alternators. Total fuel burned by the genset each AM is negligible with the genset accumulating less than 60 hours per year.

Obviously one's cruising style, battery type, solar panel output and house loads vary. We know some whose boats have the best of everything battery and charging related but anchor out seldom. Then others who seldom see a marina and don't have big freezers and Sub Zeros, different strokes and needs ------

 

[twistedtree]

There's a lot to like about the Wakespeed 500, but mine is always one day away from being removed and replaced with something else. My big gripe is the management interface, or lack there of. Unless you have a windows laptop, or I'm told an Android phone, neither of which I have, you are SOL for programming it. And windows on a Mac virtual machines doesn't work. It has to be a native windows machine. The only way I could program mine was to remove it and take it up to the pilot house to program it with my nav computer which happens to be a native windows machine - the only one I own anywhere.


And be VERY cautious of the canned programming packages or lumps or whatever they are. Are they really what's right for your boat? And if they aren't, are you prepared to decipher the cryptic command line commands to change the programming? Actually, you will have to decipher them no matter what to check if the programming is what you want. The LFP lumps were not correct for my battery bank. And how will you then confirm that those setting took hold, and how will you monitor operation to confirm it's doing what you expect?


I never thought I'd say it, but the Balmar magnetic thingy is easier if you don't carry around a windows laptop.

 

[Tator]

So far I've been pleased with the Wakespeed ws500. We installed it last summer along with a 6 battery bank of Lion 105ahr lithiums and a Victron 3000 Multiplus. It replaced a single Xantrex (Balmar) regulator that we were using to regulate our 2 150amp small case Zena alternators (on separate engines) that charged our 1125ahr Trojan t105s (no centerfielder). The old system worked fine for 16 years-the new system seems to work better. We are using only one of the Zenas with the new system as I wanted to see how it would work before having to possibly spring for an additional Wakespeed. Given our cruising style and electrical needs, I'm not sure I will bother hooking up the other alternator. The one Zena will put out 120 amps all day long at our normal cruising rpms.

Wakespeed has said that the one unit might work to regulate both alternators as our old Xantrex did. As Wakespeed didn't have a set of custom codes for our Lions, we had to learn how to change the lines of code in the regulator to charge the Lions correctly. We appeared to have gotten it on the second try. In our case, I found the act of removing the screws that hold the regulator and unplugging the harness in order to take it up to the salon to reprogram it to be less onerous than working on my knees with that damn magnetic screwdriver on the Xantrex.

Tator

 

[DDW]

There's a lot to like about the Wakespeed 500, but mine is always one day away from being removed and replaced with something else. My big gripe is the management interface, or lack there of. Unless you have a windows laptop, or I'm told an Android phone, neither of which I have, you are SOL for programming it. And windows on a Mac virtual machines doesn't work. It has to be a native windows machine.

Twisted, I've been able to program and monitor mine from my Macbook Pro, running VMWare and the Wakespeed software, or the Off Grid 3rd party software without problems. You definitely do not need a native Windows machine. I didn't like having to run a VM just to monitor the Wakespeed though, so I wrote a Mac app to do it. It has some control functions and I may enhance it to do more. I have run a permanent cable from the Wakespeed up to the helm where the laptop sits. PM me if you are interested in trying it.

Also as of 2.5.0, if you have a Victron Cerbo, you can monitor most things from that by running a CAN cable between the two. They have promised some control from there in the future, but with the change of ownership I suppose we must wait and see.

 

[twistedtree]

Twisted, I've been able to program and monitor mine from my Macbook Pro, running VMWare and the Wakespeed software, or the Off Grid 3rd party software without problems. You definitely do not need a native Windows machine. I didn't like having to run a VM just to monitor the Wakespeed though, so I wrote a Mac app to do it. It has some control functions and I may enhance it to do more. I have run a permanent cable from the Wakespeed up to the helm where the laptop sits. PM me if you are interested in trying it.

Also as of 2.5.0, if you have a Victron Cerbo, you can monitor most things from that by running a CAN cable between the two. They have promised some control from there in the future, but with the change of ownership I suppose we must wait and see.

I recall a conversation about VMWare, probably with you, and there was some setting in VMWare that was needed to make it work. I have not yet tried it, and if it works I will be a lot happier.


As for the off-grid app, I find it highly objectionable to have to buy some third party app to program a device that should have such capabilities already included as part of the product.


I'm also aware of the Victron integration, and that's great if you have bought into the Victron eco system, but I haven't.


To me all this just says the product is half done. As I said, there is a lot to like, and if it were a complete product I would probably be singing nothing but praise. But they have expressed disinterest in changing any of this, so I have a real hard time getting excited about. If some of the unique features are important to you, and the shortcomings don't
get in your way, then I understand how one would like it.

 

[O C Diver]

I use a Balmar 614. When the Wakespeed came out, I spent some time going through all the features and came to the conclusion there wasn't any advantage to switch. I have a 220 amp alternator with the Balmar 614 that never takes 3 hours to charge my bank. So where is the advantage if you're only charging one bank from one alternator? As for monitoring, everything I need to know while underway I can see on my Victron SOC gauge. I see this as program it and forget about it. To me this is kind of like a bilge pump with a NEMA 2000 interface.

If my Balmar 614 dies, I may take another look at the Wakespeed, but really don't see an advantage to replacing what works for what appears to be an equivalent for my application.

Ted

 

[DDW]

I have a 220 amp alternator with the Balmar 614 that never takes 3 hours to charge my bank.

Ted

First, you cannot charge an AGM battery fully - as the manufacturer defines it - in 3 hours. But that aside, if you have varying house loads, the Balmar will be tricked into switching to float early, and there is nothing you can do about it except make the minimum absorb time 6 hours. Then every time you start the engine you will get 6 hours of absorb voltages. As has been pointed out by Rob Collins, this is far less likely to lead to early death in AGMs than charging inadequately for only 3 hours.

The huge difference between the two is that the Wakespeed measures current into the battery, and this is a key bit of data necessary to recognize end of charge in an AGM. Not so key in LFP or flooded. The Balmar doesn't measure current at all, it makes a wild guess based on field current which has almost no relationship to battery charge current. So basically it is a voltage regulated charge. That works OK for flooded LA and for LFP. Not so good for AGM. Sure you can get it to work sort of, but this can and does murder AGM batteries regularly.

For example, Lifeline defines end of charge as the current in dropping to 0.005C at absorb voltage. On a 400AH bank that is 2A. How can a Balmar determine this, with background house loads varying from 20 to 200A? It can't, and doesn't.

 

[DDW]

As for the off-grid app, I find it highly objectionable to have to buy some third party app to program a device that should have such capabilities already included as part of the product.

....

To me all this just says the product is half done.

You'll get no argument from me with that characterization. They need to put in a Bluetooth radio, and build an iOS and Android app. If Victron owned it, that is what would already have happened. The Victron BT connected battery chargers, shunts, batteries, and solar chargers are head and shoulders above this in UI.

I am hoping the new owners will fund that effort, really it isn't that much effort.

 

[O C Diver]

First, you cannot charge an AGM battery fully - as the manufacturer defines it - in 3 hours. But that aside, if you have varying house loads, the Balmar will be tricked into switching to float early, and there is nothing you can do about it except make the minimum absorb time 6 hours. Then every time you start the engine you will get 6 hours of absorb voltages. As has been pointed out by Rob Collins, this is far less likely to lead to early death in AGMs than charging inadequately for only 3 hours.

The huge difference between the two is that the Wakespeed measures current into the battery, and this is a key bit of data necessary to recognize end of charge in an AGM. Not so key in LFP or flooded. The Balmar doesn't measure current at all, it makes a wild guess based on field current which has almost no relationship to battery charge current. So basically it is a voltage regulated charge. That works OK for flooded LA and for LFP. Not so good for AGM. Sure you can get it to work sort of, but this can and does murder AGM batteries regularly.

For example, Lifeline defines end of charge as the current in dropping to 0.005C at absorb voltage. On a 400AH bank that is 2A. How can a Balmar determine this, with background house loads varying from 20 to 200A? It can't, and doesn't.

Ok, so I don't count the float phase. All I care about is Bulk and Absorption. I have Firefly batteries (so far so good) that don't require a complete charge every day. Second, I typically cruise for 6 to 12 hours per cruising day. So they're full when I drop the hook. I would guess every 10 to 20 days I'm on the power pedestal overnight, which seems to bring the charger to cycling between off and float.

The other metric I use is to determine overnight draw down off the SOC gauge and then periodically monitor charging killowatts to determine input exceeding depletion. Routinely, charging exceeds draw down as it's not a zero sum game. I don't know how the Balmar 614 does the calculations, but it seems to do them correctly. Spent 7.5 months cruising last year and everything works as advertised.

Btw, since my Magnum Energy inverter / charger doesn't measure amperage flow into the batteries, does that mean it's not charging my batteries correctly either?

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

I use a Balmar 614. When the Wakespeed came out, I spent some time going through all the features and came to the conclusion there wasn't any advantage to switch. I have a 220 amp alternator with the Balmar 614 that never takes 3 hours to charge my bank. So where is the advantage if you're only charging one bank from one alternator? As for monitoring, everything I need to know while underway I can see on my Victron SOC gauge. I see this as program it and forget about it. To me this is kind of like a bilge pump with a NEMA 2000 interface.

If my Balmar 614 dies, I may take another look at the Wakespeed, but really don't see an advantage to replacing what works for what appears to be an equivalent for my application.

Ted

Ted
You've logged thousands of miles and innumerable overnights spent at anchor with your charging setup. Reliability and system's familiarity is huge for long distance cruisers. When considering overall vessel performance the regulator one chooses seems akin to what light bulbs to use. It really should be that straightforward.

Pau, the OP, has by all accounts a very nice battery, monitoring, charger and regulator setup. Ted, you do too as evidenced by your journeys.

 

[DDW]

You have Fireflys, which are a whole different animal and don't require the periodic full charge that AGMs require. They are tolerant of not getting fully charged. Treat them well, since you can't replace them.

On AGMs, the float phase does not count. For Lifelines, they must be held at absorb voltages until the charge current drops under the threshhold. Most AGM manufacturers who publish a spec have something similar, a very low current threshold. If you hold them at float for a very long time, probably the same result is accomplished, but it is not the recommended charge protocol. The absorb voltage right to the top is to return the sulfate to solution. And yes, the Magnum charger similarly may not complete the charge that the manufacturer recommends, depending on how it is set up. A Victron or Mastervolt will, since the end of charge can be set to the current threshold as measured by the shunt. Magnum has a current shunt add-on, but it works poorly, there is no option on the Balmar. The best you can do is set both for 6 hours minimum absorb and live with the overcharge.

It isn't as though you are going to kill them in 7.5 months. Both the Magnum and the Balmar kinda sorta do almost the right thing and not totally the wrong thing. But forum boards are full of threads about how AGMs don't last, and these are some of the reasons. Mine are well treated, and as I said I just replaced the ones on the sailboat at 17 years old, with 78% of capacity still available. I replaced the ones on the trawler at 11 years, not because they were bad but because I needed to change the configuration.

 

[O C Diver]

It isn't as though you are going to kill them in 7.5 months. Both the Magnum and the Balmar kinda sorta do almost the right thing and not totally the wrong thing. But forum boards are full of threads about how AGMs don't last, and these are some of the reasons. Mine are well treated, and as I said I just replaced the ones on the sailboat at 17 years old, with 78% of capacity still available. I replaced the ones on the trawler at 11 years, not because they were bad but because I needed to change the configuration.

IMO, most cruisers don't know squat about their house bank and routinely abuse it until it dies a premature death from operator error.Then it couldn't possibly be their fault. It's AGMs now and before that open lead acid. How many cruisers have you met with failed banks that admitted to draining the bank overnight, repeatedly. How many of these people have a SOC gauge, know how to use it, or know below what voltage they're killing their batteries? This is like the open lead acid cruisers that water the batteries once a year when they change the engine oil.

There are a lot cruisers (some on this forum) that think PM (Preventitive Maintenance) stands for Post-mortem (after you've killed it).

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

Float does count towards charging. My Fullriver AGMs say you should drop from absorb to float at 0.02C - 0.012C. I stick to the lower end. But they also say that to be truly topped off, they need to float for 8 hours after end absorb. For that reason I end absorb at 0.01C on solar, knowing they won't get to float as long as they will on a shore power charge.

 

[Bmarler]

Float does count towards charging. My Fullriver AGMs say you should drop from absorb to float at 0.02C - 0.012C. I stick to the lower end. But they also say that to be truly topped off, they need to float for 8 hours after end absorb. For that reason I end absorb at 0.01C on solar, knowing they won't get to float as long as they will on a shore power charge.

I just installed fullrivers this winter. I need to go over my balmar settings and get my solar install completed for this spring.
Are you using the balmar regulator on yours?

 

[rslifkin]

I just installed fullrivers this winter. I need to go over my balmar settings and get my solar install completed for this spring.
Are you using the balmar regulator on yours?

No, I haven't gone for fancy alternator regulators in my setup. Just the stock alternators with ACRs. They push about 14 volts so a full charge from the alternators would take a while. But I don't consider them my primary charging source. More typically on a long run, they help the solar through bulk, then the solar takes the batteries through absorb (once above the alternator set point) and then the alternators take over once the solar drops to float.

It's not a perfect setup, but it works well enough.

 

[danderer]

I replaced an old/failing Balmar with a WS500 last fall. When I bought the boat the PO included 2 or 3 old Balmars which suggested to me.. well, nothing good.

I'm overall pleased. I keep one very old Windows laptop around for this type of thing.

I may or may not be having an issue with the WS500. When in acceptance or float the charging - well, it spikes rather than the smooth curve I'd expect. In bulk things are smooth.

Tech support tells me that this is normal - some installations do this, others don't. They can't tell me why. I'm not real comfortable with this answer. I intend to follow up this spring when we're back onboard.

Maybe I'm obsessing over nothing. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Tator]

Danderer-Curious as to what program you are using to display the data in your photo?

Tator

 

[danderer]

Danderer-Curious as to what program you are using to display the data in your photo?

Tator

That is the program Wakespeed supplies to configure/monitor their regulator. Runs on a Win PC plugged into the WS500 USB port.

 

[DDW]

The is the Off Grid software, a third party offering. If you buy the Wakespeed from them, they may throw it in.

I'd consider what you are seeing very odd and would try to track it down. A little hard to tell from the blurry screen shot, but it looks like the alternator is at 98 deg, very near the 100 default limit. What period are the cycles? It could be bouncing off the alt high temp limit, backing off too much, then retrying.

The status shows the alternator at near hot limit and the field at only 46%, at least at that instant. I'd try turning the max field down and see if it smooths things out. It would be interesting to see a log of the actual status output from the serial port - I've seen the Off Gird software be a little wiggy sometimes.

What is your normal laptop? Mac?

 

[danderer]

Thanks for the thoughts. Normal laptop is indeed a Mac.

The screenshot came from a video I made. The spikes are around every 4 seconds, so (I'd guess) probably not hitting a high-temp limit, cooling, and then starting over again.

In bulk mode, driving something over 200A from the alternator, there are no spikes. The problem only occurs at lower output levels in acceptance and float.

Wakespeed did suggest it could be due to a diode-based isolator. I do have an isolator between the house and starting banks, but

1. It isn't diode-based, and
2. I see the same spiking behavior if I remove the isolator and starting bank from the system.

I'd accept this is normal behavior if I understood why, but I don't and so.

My plan was to revisit this with the mfr in the spring but since this discussion came up I thought I'd see if other have experienced this/have an explanation.

Video: https://youtu.be/16Go_YmYP64

 

[DDW]

In no way would I consider that acceptable, and an answer from tech support that "some of them do that" is in no way acceptable either.

4 seconds is way too fast to be thermal. Must be either voltage or current sense.

When you say tech support, is that someone at Off Grid, or Al at Wakespeed? Or some one else at Wakespeed?

I assume you have the shunt properly connected between the battery ground and anything else, and that the scaling factor is set correctly. Where is the voltage sense connected? The isolator is a FET type? Or there is an automatic relay?

I'd be happy to send you the Mac app I wrote. It is rudimentary compared to the Off Grid, but gives you current status and saves the log. From the log you may be able to see things not apparent on the Off Grid graph. The app also allows forcing to accept or float, and enabling debug mode which puts more info in the log - unfortunately they have not shares what that extra stuff means, but it will be asked for to look at.

 

[DDW]

I guess one other thing worth considering is that you apparently had several Balmars fail. They have their faults but unreliability isn't one of them, in my experience. It may point to some unusual condition on your boat.

 

[danderer]

Thanks. Will follow up on your offer via PM.

 

[DennisB1]

I have two Cat 3208TAs on my boat. One engine has a 160 amp Leese Neville with an Ample Power multi step remote regulator (company out of business) which charges a 800 amp hr AGM bank. During a typical 1500 rpm cruise the alternator outputs about 120 amps max and goes to a float of 13.4 volts. A lot of the battery charge comes from the gen set running and bank charging from the Magnasine 2812 inverter (max 132 amps) Typically an hour morning and evening (all electric boat).

The second engine has a Rod Collines built 100 amp single belt Leese Nevelle alternator with a remote Wakespeed 100 regulator multistep charge cycle. Per Rods recommendations you should set the max charge at or below 90% for the small frame alternator. (Four choices 100, 90 75 & 50%). For my application of charging the start battery I have it at 50%. It is a very simple to set up (no computer required) to choose charge rate. If the house bank alternator fails, there is a switch over to charge all batteries with the W100. Our normal cruise amps consumption is about 20 amps with occasional peaks when using the microwave for hot water (which draws over 120 amps 12 DC) so the smaller alternator could keep up with the electrical demand or the gen set could drive the inverter charging.

The original equipment alternator was a small frame Leese Nevelle 52 amp which would taper to near zero amps at 13.8 volts with the internal regulator. A very poor way to maintain and charged a battery bank. There was no room due to a post in the engine room to install a two-belt alternator in case you are wondering.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Does the 160 Amp alternator have two belts? How did you rig that?

I have two Cat 3208TAs on my boat. One engine has a 160 amp Leese Neville with an Ample Power multi step remote regulator (company out of business) which charges a 800 amp hr AGM bank. During a typical 1500 rpm cruise the alternator outputs about 120 amps max and goes to a float of 13.4 volts. A lot of the battery charge comes from the gen set running and bank charging from the Magnasine 2812 inverter (max 132 amps) Typically an hour morning and evening (all electric boat).



The second engine has a Rod Collines built 100 amp single belt Leese Nevelle alternator with a remote Wakespeed 100 regulator multistep charge cycle. Per Rods recommendations you should set the max charge at or below 90% for the small frame alternator. (Four choices 100, 90 75 & 50%). For my application of charging the start battery I have it at 50%. It is a very simple to set up (no computer required) to choose charge rate. If the house bank alternator fails, there is a switch over to charge all batteries with the W100. Our normal cruise amps consumption is about 20 amps with occasional peaks when using the microwave for hot water (which draws over 120 amps 12 DC) so the smaller alternator could keep up with the electrical demand or the gen set could drive the inverter charging.



The original equipment alternator was a small frame Leese Nevelle 52 amp which would taper to near zero amps at 13.8 volts with the internal regulator. A very poor way to maintain and charged a battery bank. There was no room due to a post in the engine room to install a two-belt alternator in case you are wondering.