Opinion on Wakespeed regulators

[DennisB1]

The 160 alt has two belts. Their clearance for the starboard engine with the alternator mounted on the right hand side of the engine. The engine has a 3 groove pully mounted to the crankshaft damper for the belts.

 

[NWboater2]

I have a single JD with an outdated LN 200 amp alternator with a Balmar ars -4 regulator. Seems to put out 13 ish at start then no more than 12.8 underway, per the murphy gauge . Haven’t gone far (long) enough to see if it’s draining or what.Stuff works then we’re back on the cord. That is not the long term plan though; would like to use the running time to arrive fully charged at anchor somewhere!
Not interested in repairing the alt or reg and would like to also upgrade the link 20 monitor. Have a victron multiplus charger inverter and 840 ah lifeline agm house bank (plus 2x 8D thruster batts and two start batts) none more than 6 yrs old.
This thread and others suggest the WS 500 running a Balmar alternator maybe the xt 250?
2 inch single foot mount. K8 serpentine belt

Anyway. Seems like a semi open thread about ws500 ….
so what about this set up?
Balmar xt 250 w k8 pulley
Ws500
Victron 712, using same shunt? (Can u do that?)
Other ideas? Cautions? Alternatives?
Thanks!

 

[O C Diver]

I have a single JD with an outdated LN 200 amp alternator with a Balmar ars -4 regulator. Seems to put out 13 ish at start then no more than 12.8 underway, per the murphy gauge . Haven’t gone far (long) enough to see if it’s draining or what.Stuff works then we’re back on the cord. That is not the long term plan though; would like to use the running time to arrive fully charged at anchor somewhere!
Not interested in repairing the alt or reg and would like to also upgrade the link 20 monitor. Have a victron multiplus charger inverter and 840 ah lifeline agm house bank (plus 2x 8D thruster batts and two start batts) none more than 6 yrs old.
This thread and others suggest the WS 500 running a Balmar alternator maybe the xt 250?
2 inch single foot mount. K8 serpentine belt

Anyway. Seems like a semi open thread about ws500 ….
so what about this set up?
Balmar xt 250 w k8 pulley
Ws500
Victron 712, using same shunt? (Can u do that?)
Other ideas? Cautions? Alternatives?
Thanks!

Not sure which John Deere you have, but here is the second alternator I installed when repowering my boat with a John Deere 4045. The alternator is a large frame Leece Neville 220 amp with an external regulator. Left the original alternator in place to change the engine start battery and the second one does the house battery. Some pics of the install:

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/members/1458-albums983.html

Ted

 

[Portage_Bay]

The 160 alt has two belts. Their clearance for the starboard engine with the alternator mounted on the right hand side of the engine. The engine has a 3 groove pully mounted to the crankshaft damper for the belts.

I'm curious how your's is rigged. I've taken a look at installing a two pulley alternator. I'm working from memory here, not at the boat for a while so I may have it wrong. The OEM alternator rides on the center groove of the crankshsaft pulley. The raw water pump rides on the outer groove. Outer meaning the groove furthest from the block. At first pass an alternator with a two groove pulley riding on the center and outer crankshaft pulley grooves would seem a good bet. But moving the raw water pump to the inner groove is not possible. There just isn't room. Same with the alternator, it can't be moved to use inner and middle groves because it almost hits the manifold as it is.

If you could pass on the details and perhaps pics of how this is done I and probably a great many 3208 owners would be greatful.

 

[Lepke]

Thanks for bring this up.

I have internal regulators on 12 & 48 volt alternators and been looking at external regulators. I use GM CS-144 alternators, 140 amp, because they're common as dirt.
Here are the PDFs if someone want them.

 

[DDW]

I'd stay away from Balmar alternators, they seem to be way overpriced. A LN or Delco alternator of the right sort is easily and cheaply converted to external regulation and will cost a small fraction of the Balmar. After several Balmar alternators, I've sworn them off.

 

[NWboater2]

That is a nice set up Ted. Mine is 6068sfm50 (early electronic) w single alt. At the risk of further thread drift - I see you removed your belt cage/guard deal and it looks like you don't plan to put it back on.
I was considering the same....I would have to crawl way forward to get caught in it, and most times I'd be up there I would want to have it off to see inside there anyway. seems removal would help alt temp too? Might be able to fit a large frame alt with it off, but still have the 2 inch single foot.

I'm not married to Balmar but they make it a lot easier to browse their products than Prestolite. Ive been talking about thisto Matt at Petrel who is popular and thus busy.
I am pretty sure I want the ws500 to run whatever i do get, and a modern victron monitor to watch it work...anyone have links to a good LN or other alt in the 200 amp range that has a 2 inch single foot, ready for WS500 regulator? Thanks!

 

[GMS]

We are using a WS500 externally controlled by a REC BMS via CAN with a Victron Cerbo GX for monitoring (we also use a Victron Multiplus for inverter/charger).

The WS500 was selected specifically because they are able to communicate over the CANBus with the REC BMS. The integration has worked great for going on two years.

I will echo the distain for the poor programming interface for us Mac users, which unfortunately extends to the REC BMS as well. Thankfully, at least the REC BMS has put out a WiFi module that allows for manipulation of all charging parameters via a web interface.

In out setup, the WS500 is essentially a slave to the REC BMS, so there isn't much (any) programming to be done on the WS500.

The Wakespeed, REC, and Victron system was all installed in our switch over to LFP house bank (fortunately, the boat was due for a new inverter/charger - so we were not getting rid of any truly functional equipment).

Our experience working directly with Wakespeed was excellent, they were very responsive to questions and very helpful in resolving communication issues with the REC BMS. That said, our timing was perfect as they were actively engaged in bringing the REC BMS support on-line at the time.

 

[O C Diver]

That is a nice set up Ted. Mine is 6068sfm50 (early electronic) w single alt. At the risk of further thread drift - I see you removed your belt cage/guard deal and it looks like you don't plan to put it back on.
I was considering the same....I would have to crawl way forward to get caught in it, and most times I'd be up there I would want to have it off to see inside there anyway. seems removal would help alt temp too? Might be able to fit a large frame alt with it off, but still have the 2 inch single foot.

I'm not married to Balmar but they make it a lot easier to browse their products than Prestolite. Ive been talking about thisto Matt at Petrel who is popular and thus busy.
I am pretty sure I want the ws500 to run whatever i do get, and a modern victron monitor to watch it work...anyone have links to a good LN or other alt in the 200 amp range that has a 2 inch single foot, ready for WS500 regulator? Thanks!

I respect the value of the belt guard, but between putting the 2nd alternator on and servicing anything on the front of the engine, it was too much of a PIA to deal with.

If you click on this link and search "Leece Neville 4000 series alternator ", you'll find some good options. Be seated when you start scrolling. The 320 amp model is a little pricey. There are more affordable options further down. If you find something you like, Google search "Leece Neville + model number ". Be careful, there are Chinese knockoffs that look identical to the original.

https://prestolitesuperstore.com/index.aspx

Ted

 

[DennisB1]

Question is how is the dual belt alternator set up on my starboard
Cat 3208TA. An addition 4 groove pully was installed by the original owner on a 1990 engine. This gives a total of 7 belt grooves all with the same diameter on the crankshaft damper.
From the engine out: Groove 1&2 empty; Grove 3 drives water pump: groove 4&5 drive the dual belt alternator and groove 6&7 drive a dual belt electric clutch Jabsco bilge pump
This first Pix shows the dual belt 160-amp alternator modified spacers to align with the 4&5 groove.
The second pix show the Wakespeed 100 install on the engine mount for port engine:
The third pix show the belts that drive the Water pump right side; the alternator center 2 belts and the let 2 belts which drive the bilge pump.




T

 

[NWboater2]

Another clever set up. thanks guys. I would be way Trawler Forum over my head modifying stuff like that. Just looking for reliable useful charging under way.

Ted I perused that site, thank you. Looks like for them a spindle Mount maxes out at 120. I’ve got 840 ah house plus about 700 in thruster and main start plus a gen start (NL 6k so maybe a 31? Don’t know). Hopefully the non house stuff doesn’t get drawn down very much but still gotta feed them too. I’ll see what petrel marine recommends. Ws 500 seems like a pretty good choice despite its quirks tho. Thanks all

 

[Portage_Bay]

DennisB1, Thank you. Your pics and description are clear. Now I need to find an add on pulley. Earlier searches didn't turn up anything. I wonder where your OP found it.

 

[DDW]

If there is a 4" J180 mount available for your engine, or if one can be fabricated, it opens up the choice of alternators a great deal. On my Cummins QSB, there was an option for this mount, I bought the part and put it on. There are tons of J180 alternators.

 

[catalinajack]

There's a lot to like about the Wakespeed 500, but mine is always one day away from being removed and replaced with something else. My big gripe is the management interface, or lack there of. Unless you have a windows laptop, or I'm told an Android phone, neither of which I have, you are SOL for programming it. And windows on a Mac virtual machines doesn't work. It has to be a native windows machine. The only way I could program mine was to remove it and take it up to the pilot house to program it with my nav computer which happens to be a native windows machine - the only one I own anywhere.


And be VERY cautious of the canned programming packages or lumps or whatever they are. Are they really what's right for your boat? And if they aren't, are you prepared to decipher the cryptic command line commands to change the programming? Actually, you will have to decipher them no matter what to check if the programming is what you want. The LFP lumps were not correct for my battery bank. And how will you then confirm that those setting took hold, and how will you monitor operation to confirm it's doing what you expect?


I never thought I'd say it, but the Balmar magnetic thingy is easier if you don't carry around a windows laptop.

And another thing, for the Balmar, once one determines what settings are correct for a particular system, further programming is generally unnecessary. Yes, the magnetic reed switch changes are annoying but, to my mind, far less annoying than programming a Wakespeed for all the reasons you stated. Better yet, get Balmar's new MC-618, which can be programmed with a cell phone app - no more reed switch.

 

[Bmarler]

And another thing, for the Balmar, once one determines what settings are correct for a particular system, further programming is generally unnecessary. Yes, the magnetic reed switch changes are annoying but, to my mind, far less annoying than programming a Wakespeed for all the reasons you stated. Better yet, get Balmar's new MC-618, which can be programmed with a cell phone app - no more reed switch.

Didn’t know that existed, thanks. I’m going to explore that as an option to replace the balmar already in place. I love the idea of a phone app.

 

[DennisB1]

Ref Portage Bay post #42 I would go to a machine shop and have one made that fits to the existing damper. The damper is about 7 inches diameter, and you would need an accurate dimensional drawing to make the new part. If you are driving the alternator with the 2 new v belt grooves, they do not have to be exactly the same diameter as what is current 3 groove drive. There are six 3/8 threaded holes on a bolt circle and a bored recess to accept the new pully. All of the paint would require removal on the mount surface.

 

[danderer]

To loop back to an old issue:

I may or may not be having an issue with the WS500. When in acceptance or float the charging - well, it spikes rather than the smooth curve I'd expect. In bulk things are smooth.

Tech support tells me that this is normal - some installations do this, others don't. They can't tell me why. I'm not real comfortable with this answer. I intend to follow up this spring when we're back onboard.

Support now confirms this isn't normal behavior. Seems to be software-version related. I see the problem in the current (2.5.0) WS500 software; the problem is not present on the previous (2.4.3) version.

I hope/believe this will be addressed in their next release.

 

[CharlieJ]

OP: The WS500 is several magnitudes of improvement over the Balmar family. I have found programming with the canned programs or from scratch to be trivial. The addition of a dedicated shunt to the alternator output to feed back to the regulator and to monitoring equipment is a real improvement.

An iOS app is apparently in the works. In the meantime, and because I do this for a living, an inexpensive (<$130) Android tablet allows using the current WS App that simplifies programming even more.

This is the alternator regulator that I have been waiting for for 20 years!

 

[SteveK]

CharlieJ. Internal or external regulator, at what voltage or other measurement does the Alternator get turned off.
What I am trying to understand is how an ALT knows the battery is full. If the ALT does not over charge or overheat when charging an FLA, why does it overheat with LFP.
Now guessing, the FLA reaches peak voltage sooner.

 

[CharlieJ]

@SteveK #49

Internal or external regulator, at what voltage or other measurement does the Alternator get turned off.

Three conditions have to be met: achieve a target voltage, for a specified and adjustable length of time at the specified and adjustable tail current.

why does it overheat with LFP.

The internal resistance of an LFP battery (and thin plate pure lead (TPPL) batteries) is so low that the battery/bank appears to be a short circuit. The stock alternator is challenged to produce maximum current for a period of time well in excess of its design parameters and literally burns up.

 

[Simi 60]

Seems this is a new variant here.
Opinions?

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/anyone-seen-model-68518-new-post.html

 

[Portage_Bay]

My first thoughts are not specific to Wakespeed, rather to any device that must be programmed by smart phone or serial interface. As the device gets on in years the smart phone and computer operating systems change. Sometimes apps are not kept up to date. Then you may find you have a device you can no longer program. All well and good if you never for any reason have to make changes.

I've had two personal experiences and know of many others.

Specific to the Wakespeed if you change battery bank size or battery chemistry you should make changes. With the older models of DIP switch plus PC control you had the best of both worlds.

Note there are no DIP switches in this model. Programming is via the Smartphone app or a serial connection to the controller itself by removing the cover and plugging into the USB connection inside.

 

[DDW]

One thing that has survived all generations of computerware is a serial port. Pretty safe for my lifetime anyway.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Yes the serial port survives. Sort of. Think about the changes serial comms. From 25 pin, to 9 pin, pretty straight forward to deal with. Then enter USB. Adapting serial comms from pinned connectors to USB required adapters that may or may not work well enough. The USB port keeps changing, evolving. Making some older hardware obsolete.

You're still left with concerns about outdated operating systems and orphaned apps (software) leaving you unable to communicate with the hardware.

Yes, I know, everything is going USB or WiFi or Bluetooth. When it works it's great. But please leave the DIP switches in devices like alternator regulators.

One thing that has survived all generations of computerware is a serial port. Pretty safe for my lifetime anyway.

 

[DDW]

Well there are dip switches on the WS500 for rudimentary settings. But it is totally impractical to program all of the various settings and options (in the hundreds including voltage and time settings not easily accommodated even with an infinite number of dip switches). So with complex devices comes complex interfaces.

I will actually appreciate if Dragonfly keeps the serial port for programming the WS500, even if they improve the BT app to useable. Because in spite of the cabling issues, I am pretty sure serial comm is here to stay for most of this century.

There is also the issue of firmware updates. Technically could be done with dip switches with a lifetime to do it. But practically requires a serial link.

 

[Simi 60]

My first thoughts are not specific to Wakespeed, rather to any device that must be programmed by smart phone or serial interface. As the device gets on in years the smart phone and computer operating systems change. Sometimes apps are not kept up to date. Then you may find you have a device you can no longer program. All well and good if you never for any reason have to make changes.

I've had two personal experiences and know of many others.

Specific to the Wakespeed if you change battery bank size or battery chemistry you should make changes. With the older models of DIP switch plus PC control you had the best of both worlds.

Unfortunately, the "older" model here in Oz is double the price
And, now we have lifepo4 in I don't think we'd be replacing them so can't see a need to change settings.