Tugs vs Trawlers

[sunchaser]

Tugs versus Trawlers

Are you referring to point of manufacture or flag? A ferry boat made in Europe can be documented in the US and work the Seattle to Friday harbor run.

-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 23rd of October 2009 02:37:30 PM

 

[RT Firefly]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Hiya,
** It was my understanding that it was the point of manufacture but if european ferries are running in Seattle, obviosly I am wrong-sorry for the confusion.*

 

[Marin]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I'm not aware of any European ferries operating in the Washington State ferry system. In fact at one point it was made a requirement that any ferries added to the system had to be built in this state. Recently there has been some consideration given to having some new ferries made by shipyards in the Gulf states for cost and schedule reasons. I do not know how this has been resolved.

You can operate a foreign-built vessel in a charter fleet. The charter fleets here are full of Grand Banks, CHBs, Krogens, European-built sailboats, etc.. I am pretty sure you can operate a foreign-built vessel for hire to carry passengers, too, at least up to a certain capacity. There are "six-pack" operators here using boats built in other countries.

 

[RickB]

Tugs versus Trawlers

RT Firefly wrote:

Hiya,
** It was my understanding that it was the point of manufacture but if european ferries are running in Seattle, obviosly I am wrong-sorry for the confusion.*

Don't be so quick to apologize. There are no foreign built ferries in the WSF system. There may be soon though but it will be on a run to British*Columbia and will not carry passengers between American ports.

It is possible to use a foreign built small vessel for other than bare boat charter*in US waters. The link below explains the Jones Act Waiver Program.*

http://tiny.cc/2Q7XQ*

A few years ago WSF wanted to lease one of the foreign built Victoria Clipper high speed catamaran ferries to evaluate the wake issues in Rich Passage and it took an act of Congress to declare that transporting WSF employees on a "voyage to nowhere" and only boarding and disembarking them at the same place*did not contravene the Jones Act or the passenger vessel act. Also they used the "research vessel" card to ease the process since they could claim the use of the vessel was to research wave effects. All three Victoria Clipper boats are US flagged, but only the one US built boat can be used on the San Juan Islands run. The other two can only go to a foreign port (Victoria) from a US port (Seattle).

-- Edited by RickB on Friday 23rd of October 2009 06:06:02 PM

 

[sunchaser]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Thanks*for clearing that up RIkcb. Please note I did not say WSF ferries were made outside the US. My "source" of information was indeed the operators of the Victoria Clipper run. Also, to keep the Sidney, Friday Harbor*to Anacortes run viable there are gyrations going on as to whose flag will fly and whose ships will be used. Now it is the WSF. The BC ferry system uses some non Canada build*for their vessels.

 

[RickB]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

sunchaser wrote:

Thanks*for clearing that up RIkcb. Please note I did not say WSF ferries were made outside the US. My "source" of information was indeed the operators of the Victoria Clipper run. Also, to keep the Sidney, Friday Harbor*to Anacortes run viable there are gyrations going on as to whose flag will fly and whose ships will be used. Now it is the WSF. The BC ferry system uses some non Canada build*for their vessels.

If they want to run the Sidney ferry via Friday Harbor they will have to do it on an American bottom with American crew and fly an American flag. The Victoria Clipper folks will make sure there are no waivers unless they get one too and that just ain't gonna happen.

My understanding was that the State authorised the purchase of a foreign built ferry for the Sidney run. That ship*could be US flagged but it can't be used in US coastal trade - Jones Act trade as it is called. Depending on which politicritters got bought, WSF might have to promise to build a replacement vessel in a US yard within a certain time. The Alaska Marine Highway got a Swedish built ship that way when they started the Bellingham run.

Canada doesn't have the same maritime laws as we do*so they can buy ships from*anywhere*they want, so what they do is not really relevant to us. If BC ferries wanted to run Sidney to*Anacortes they could but they couldn't*pickup passengers in Friday Harbor and take them to Anacortes. And they couldn't*drop off*Anacortes boarded passengers in Friday Harbor on the way to Sidney. *

 

[RickB]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Mike wrote:
Are these companies breaking the law?

No, they are not, because they are not transporting passengers between 2 American ports. Passengers who board at Port Canaveral, disembark at Port Canaveral.

Only by the slipperiest of a very liberal interpretation of the law that was very well greased by crossing the palms of the right people by the CLIA folks ...

The interpreatation says that the* cruise ships can make as many "intermediary" stops as they like as long as one of the stops on the intinerary is a foreign port and passengers are*required to return to the ship to continue the cruise. In other words, they can get off along the way but they can't stay. Except ... you knew there had to be an exception for the amount of money that interpretation cost ... *and that exception is used to allow passengers to leave the Alaska cruise ships in Alaska and return by other means.

All in all the cruise industry has been a large consumer of what the Popes of old used to call "indulgences."**

*

 

[sunchaser]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Or a similar event- this past spring my sister and her husband caught the Cunard line's Queen in LA, berthed in Hawaii, picked up more passengers*and then onto 4non US*stops before getting off in Sidney and flying back to the US. Lots of "exceptions."

 

[Baker]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

I participate in a lot of different forums of different interests. I am not sure any of them get off topic like y'all do!!!!....

 

[Eastern Shore Bill]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

A hat-tip to everyone --we've learned a lot from your comments.
Thank you,
Bill

 

[RickB]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

sunchaser wrote:

Or a similar event- this past spring my sister and her husband caught the Cunard line's Queen in LA, berthed in Hawaii, picked up more passengers*and then onto 4non US*stops before getting off in Sidney and flying back to the US. Lots of "exceptions."

Those are not "exceptions", the*ship*did not*load passengers in LA and offload them in Hawaii so they did not*tranport passengers or cargo*between US*ports.

It is perfectly legitimate to pick up pax or cargo at several US ports, or to drop off cargo that was loaded overseas in several US ports. The point is that a foreign flag vessel or a foreign bottom cannt pickup pax or cargo in one US port and drop it off in another without first stopping at a foreign port. Foreign cargo ships commonly offload part of their cargo in Long Beach then continue to Oakland to offload the remainder. They just can't pick up LA cargo and drop it off in Oakland.

The cruise ships working out of LA skirt this by stopping in Ensenda for a few minutes on the way to Hawaii. That practice has been determined by the government to be an "evasion" and may soon be stopped. The ships may have to stay in a foreign port for something like half the total time they spend in ports.

*

 

[MichaelMaxim]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

skipperdude wrote:

I was told that the Taiwan made boats could not be put into charter service. If so. Why is that.
I was also told that a family actually would move onto the boats and finish the interior.* The reason some were so lavish and detailed
Old fish wife tales or fact?

SD


-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 23rd of October 2009 11:40:52 AM

*It has to do with the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 or the Jones Act. All vessels engaging in commerce in the US between US ports be built it the US and flagged in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

 

[FF]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

"All vessels engaging in commerce in the US between US ports be built it the US and flagged in the US."

True in theory ,

but anyone with a pile of Ca$h that can claim to have some "special" vessel can get congress (the best gov money can by W.R.) to pass a private bill.

FF

 

[Marin]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

skipperdude wrote:

I was told that the Taiwan made boats could not be put into charter service. If so. Why is that.
I was also told that a family actually would move onto the boats and finish the interior.* The reason some were so lavish and detailed
Old fish wife tales or fact?

*

First part of your post is incorrect.* There are a gazillion "Taiwan" made boats (and boats made in all sorts of other countries) in the charter fleets in the US.* The Jones Act covers commercial use, not recreational charter use.

The second part of your post is correct.* I don't know that anyone would actually move onto the boats, but the hulls and basic superstructure manufactured by the main yard would often then be "farmed out" to small, usually family-owned yards for completion.* This could result in inconsistent quality between boats of the same make and model because the manufacturing methods, materials, and hardware could vary between the yards completing the boats.* This is one reason it is so important to have thorough hull surveys conducted on any "Taiwan" boats, particularly those built in the 70s and 80s because there are some potential problems that can develop in the boats made with less-than-ideal building practices and materials.

*

 

[sunchaser]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

The vast majority of the Chinese yards today do it all in house. In fact some yards will do different brands (Alaskan, Defever and GB) in the same yard. The Chinese boatbuilders are using CAD programs for each brand so they aren't quite like Chevy and GMC on the same assembly line. Marin's picture of the NH plant a few days ago shows living quarters too for the workers. Contracting out is a foreign concept in China (for now anyway).

 

[Nomad Willy]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Tugs versus Trawlers. Just because Nordic says their boats are Tugs*** they are? What the hec is a Tug? A trawler w a phony smoke stack on top? The only "Tug" I
can think of that actually looks a bit like a tug is Marin's Lord Nelson. The east coast man said he wanted a boat that would go 20 knots*** Trawlers don't do that. Trawler is nothing more than an essence and all these boats are nothing more that CRUISERS. They were named that a long time ago and there's no reason to change it now. Some cruisers are slow and some fast. What do you do when you go out w your "Tug"*** .. go tugging? On subject John.

Eric Henning

 

[2bucks]

RE: Tugs versus Trawlers

Marin says: "This is one reason it is so important to have thorough hull surveys conducted on any "Taiwan" boats, particularly those built in the 70s and 80s because there are some potential problems that can develop in the boats made with less-than-ideal building practices and materials."

Which boat brand would you recommend someone NOT get a thorough hull survey on? For my money Grand Banks is one of the most highly regarded brands. They have deck rot, flybridge rot, window leaks and subsequent sidewall rot. Not to mention the fuel tank rusting, keel leaks etc. Reading exactly what you said, seems to be throwing rocks at the Taiwan boats, but don't you agree EVERY boat should be surveyed with the proverbial fine toothed comb?

Ken