US Couple in Caribbean feared dead

[SteveK]

Reading these threads I hear of the posse, multiple boats travelling together on west side. So far no mention of any such grouping and I have to wonder why the honest people travelling do not buddy boat in these areas. There is strenght in numbers.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm a fan of stick up dummy cameras.

They are cheap and light and you can put them up anywhere. Battery inside that flashes the red LED. And that's all it does. It's the high tech version of having alarm signs but no alarm.

But now especially, since the the real things are so cheap, people do believe it's real -

 

[rslifkin]

I'm a fan of stick up dummy cameras.

They are cheap and light and you can put them up anywhere. Battery inside that flashes the red LED. And that's all it does. It's the high tech version of having alarm signs but no alarm.

But now especially, since the the real things are so cheap, people do believe it's real -

That's a good point. We do have actual cameras on the boat, although I'm not really sure they'd be noticeable to someone boarding at night.

 

[captmikem]

Now that I am living ashore and not cruising I can safely say this..

Not telling anyone what to do or not to do, just a few facts:

Two circumnavigations, more trips across the Atlantic than I can recall, and at least five Pacific crossings, I never traveled without weapons, and (other than once in Israel) I never declared any weapons. I never had any problems with officials. I did have the Mexican Army search my vessel once though, so be careful.

M

 

[Mac G]

What did you carry?
Where did you keep it so it would be accessible yet hidden?
And just curious, what kind of boat because that is a very impressive resume!

 

[captmikem]

Mac G. PM me for details, I do not wish to stir up some folks.

M

 

[Davil1]

reading with interest, have done many of the areas discussed, that was 25 or so years ago, the only different things will consider as an alarm will be a dog.

The thread prompted by the tragic event points to the roles of fate and luck.

Luck, was intercepted by a panga, 100 miles offshore Nicaragua Atlantic side, a Jamaican man offering drugs for sale, declined with my best smile.
He left with no problems.

Fate, Year after I rounded the point of Gracias a Dios, a family cruising the same area was murdered by attackers, drug related criminals involved.

Anchored at Swan Island spent a night sitting in the cockpit in high anxiety listening to a fishing boat close by having a great time totally out of their minds drugs/alcohol.
Left early in the morning.

As cruisers/travelers, we are exposed to higher risks when boating, weather, collisions, personal accidents, most will argue we are also exposed when home, the main difference is the magic number 911.

I feel we have better odds now with more modern communications at sea, we still depend on fate and luck.

It is a whole world of experiences out there, just for the taking, life is a deadly disease.

Personal decitions with the disclaimer,No warranty from Management

 

[Hippocampus]

Reading these threads I hear of the posse, multiple boats travelling together on west side. So far no mention of any such grouping and I have to wonder why the honest people travelling do not buddy boat in these areas. There is strenght in numbers.

People do routinely buddy boat and even set up fleets for known troubling passages. Inspite of this report Grenada is safe. This was a one off event. Felt no more at risk in Grenada than the states. Only issue is dinghy theft which is endemic throughout the eastern Caribbean. The southern bays of Grenada are considered out of the hurricane zone by most insurance companies so have a strong cruiser community especially during the season. There’s a daily net and on occasion people will take turns at night patrolling dinghy theft hotspot anchorages. This occurred twice during our various stays resulting in arrests.

However the trip from the southern bays to Trinidad has pirates. Trinidad has excellent service yards at its southern part and costs lower than in the leewards. . That area is fenced off and pretty much separated from the rest of the island. It’s safe but getting here may not be. So through out the seasonal migration folks organize small fleets of 4-12 boats who stay within sight and VHF range of each other. These organize over the local VHF net. People also leave Grenada and immediately head east. This means a longer ride fo the pirates and a large area for them to search for victims. Then only head west to reach the service yards. Seems to have cut down on piracy.

St. Vincent is known as a hotspot but it’s the main island not the small islands which are included in their territory. We have stopped off at the main island but with two buddy boats. We stopped to sleep and didn’t leave the boats. We anchored quite close to each other and did keep an informal watch. Our favorite island in the entire chain is part of St.Vincent and we spent time there every year. It’s Bequia and safe as milk.

We were much more concerned wherever there was a cruise ship pier. Once the cruise ships show up the local economy becomes very distorted and petty crime increases along with muggings. That along with the presence of an airport with resultant resorts give potential criminals a large target to prey on. The island becomes segregated with gated resorts and guide tours and associated paid security. But once you’re out of those confines you need your street sense antenna working full time. We used public transportation but dressed down, had no jewelry and only went out during normal business hours. Found it amusing but was told more than once locals had no trouble identifying cruisers from tourists from locals. Was told cruisers aren’t the #1 target. Tourists are. More bang for the buck for the risk. Cruisers offer slim pickings c/w tourists.

Some islands benefit from ultra rich 1%ers like with St. Barts. Those folks travel with their own security teams. Those people aren’t worried about theft but rather kidnapping. We frequented a beach north of the main town. Often was joined by a staged invasion. First part of the security team. Then a set up team which set up food, drink and sun cover. Then the 1%ers with a second security team. We be surveyed and deemed safe but would be excluded from getting too close. Still we were under their security umbrella so safe even after dusk if they were still around. Same when wandering around town or in restaurants/bars.

I’m worried about Dominica. They’re putting in an airport. Now much of the island isn’t developed to any degree. We had no issues wandering around hiking to see waterfalls or other natural beauties. No issues eating in very rustic roadside eateries. No issues being the only non locals. Folks were vey pleasant and personable. Expect that to go downhill as the island converts to a tourist destination. The herd brings along the predators. Oh well…..

Our dirt dwelling is in a tourist destination town. During tourist season things change. The police report in the local news has a major hike in crime. You need to be alert if you go into town. Out of season it’s sleepy New England small town. Predators follow prey. That’s true everywhere.

 

[KnotYet]

Thank you for that summation, H.

 

[Nick F]

Another Bequia fan . . . jump-up at the Frangipani?

 

[Adopo]

Death penalty is just what's called for in cases like this, and I mean fast.


https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/grenada-catamaran-killings-stoke


The hijack-killings of an American cruising couple at Grenada became somehow even more gruesome when island police confirmed that one of the alleged attackers, Atiba Stanisclau, had been charged with the rape of Kathy Brandel.

According to the Royal Grenada Police Force, Brandel, 71, and her husband Ralph Hendry, 66, had been anchored off a beach in the Caribbean island when three jail escapees hijacked their catamaran in the night and headed to the island of St. Vincent, raping Brandel, killing them both and throwing their bodies into the sea.



Stanisclau, Ron Mitchell and Treven Robertson were also charged with two counts of kidnapping and capital murder each. The fact that the charge is “capital murder” is a distinction significant in Grenada, which has kept death by hanging on the books, though it has not executed anyone since 1978.

The bodies of the Americans—first-time cruisers to the Caribbean—have not been found, and therefore forensic evidence was likely limited to whatever investigators found in the bloody interior of the catamaran. So, it may be inferred that the rape charge was based on statements given by one or more of the accused themselves.

Several news stories last week mentioned that the the men were cooperating with investigators. People magazine declared outright that the men had confessed. One report specified that only two of the three were talking. Police themselves have been thrifty with the details.


The couple aboard their St. Francis 48 catamaran Simplicity.
The trio had been jailed on charges of robbery with violence when they escaped and Stanisclau had also been charged with rape. Because there was already a rape charge, it was difficult to credit a report last week in the New Today Grenada website which declared, “Kathy was raped and murdered.”

However, Grenada police confirmed the identity of the alleged victim as Brandel to the British news outlet, the Daily Mail, for a story published yesterday.

As often happens when heinous crimes are reported in Caribbean places, island residents call for a return to, or revival of the death penalty—traditionally death by hanging. Here are three typical comments from the New Today Grenada Facebook page:

Shirley Ann Lorainey: “They should be done away with…putting them in jail on taxpayers expenses, and they will demand they have their rights. Time to bring back executions in whatever form. This is way beyond disgusting.”

Kelly Alexan: “Best they just do an execution I don’t understand how these guys could do all this evil and not feel nun. That’s just sad.”

D Boss Ladii: “Get rid of thes boys and dem, cause if they get away again some innocent person gonna pay for itttttt. Hang them, hang dem HANG DEMMMM TF. Ah beg God pardon ion wanna be a judge.”

For decades, human-rights organizations have lobbied little island countries in the Caribbean to formally abolish their death penalties. Leaders have balked, saying the mere idea of the gallows may serve as a deterrent, and, as those Facebook comments suggest, popular opinion may think so too.

 

[dannc]

...
According to the Royal Grenada Police Force, Brandel, 71, and her husband Ralph Hendry, 66, had been anchored off a beach in the Caribbean island when three jail escapees hijacked their catamaran in the night and headed to the island of St. Vincent, raping Brandel, killing them both and throwing their bodies into the sea....

From the initial reports, this is what I was afraid had happened. I hope the husband did not have to witness what was done to his wife.

There are evil people walking this earth, far to many of them, and often closer to you than you think. One needs to recognize this fact and take simple precautions.

Later,
Dan

 

[Adopo]

more food for thought...

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/eastern-caribbean-cruising-experts

Times are tough for experts on cruising the Eastern Caribbean.

The island of Grenada made international headlines for a horrific rape-murder of American sailors last week. Not long ago St. Lucia’s anchorages were the scene of a spate of violent robberies, and, according to island leaders, the entire Eastern Caribbean is awash in guns wielded by gangs facilitating the northward flow of cocaine.

So, when a couple of Canadians who have styled themselves as a go-to source for cruising information in the region tried to share some safety tips, they were probably surprised by an angry response from within the Seven Seas Cruising Association.

Ken Goodings and Lynn Kaak are a cruising couple who serve as the SSCA cruising station hosts for Grenada. They are vocal on Facebook, and are known to have a go at anyone they disagree with.

With the hijacking deaths of Ralph Hendry and Kathy Brandel fresh in everyone’s minds, Goodings and Kaak authored a letter full of bullet points for the SSCA’s email Cruisers’ Bulletin on how to avoid being a victim of crime in general and violent crime in particular.1 Goodings-Kaak introduced their advice with this:

Once in a while the more experienced cruisers need to let new cruisers in on some well-tested and established security practices. Here's our two cents worth:

After a decade of full time cruising here in the Eastern Caribbean I can tell you that your continued safety and security depends 99 percent on preparation which includes avoidance of known trouble spots; and perhaps 1 percent luck.

SSCA Secretary Monty VanderMay is a lawyer and a national champion in the hammer-throw. He responded in writing, hammering the Goodings-Kaak letter as “an insensitive and inappropriate attempt to take advantage of the recent tragedy to advance their personal political perspective.”2 VanderMay said he wasn’t the only one who felt that way.

VanderMay took issue with the argument that if a cruiser follows the advice of Goodings and Kaak, their safety is virtually assured despite the nature of their environment:

This tragedy cost two of our fellow cruisers their lives in the very country the authors purport to say is so safe that you are in control of your safety 99 percent of the time with preparation. This tragedy occurred at the hands of three who were reported to be escaped convicted criminals. To so boldly state that 99 percent of the time safety is solely a question of one’s own preparation in the face of this tragedy demonizes these victims and insults everyone who has been a victim of violent crime.

Personally I found the insults to those who might disagree with the authors as well as placing blame solely on those who suffer at the hands of criminal to be thoroughly offensive.

In response to VanderMay, Goodings tried put distance between the Grenada murders and his letter, saying the advice therein was standard stuff that he and Kaak had published before.

No one outside of the perpetrators and possibly their police interrogators know how the escapees were able to take the couple. The rest of us don’t know to what degree Hendry and Brandel may have been following the Goodings-Kaak playbook.

Which, boiled down to its essence, tells cruisers to avoid bad places and lock down at night with a can of pepper spray.

“They can send little kids through small open hatches to unlock your boat. At night, open only the openings you need to stay cool in bed with electric fans,” wrote Goodings and Kaak. For close-quarters combat, they extolled the efficacy of bear or pepper spray, not wasp spray, which is “made to repel wasps, not humans.”

In an email exchange with Loose Cannon, VanderMay also took issue with the letter’s anti-gun stance:

They used these deaths to point out that guns are bad, people who have them are stupid and 99 percent of the time you are safe in Grenada/E Caribbean if you do your research. They insulted anyone who has a contrary opinion and seemed to me to be saying in an offhand way that if you are a victim of crime it is your own fault.

You can read both statements below, but at this point it should be worth noting that there are still many places to cruise where nightly lockdowns are not essential for self-preservation (though hatches might be shut to keep the heat in or the insects out.)

Locales where cruisers don’t routinely lock down their boats at night: Rio Dulce, Roatan, Luperon, Isla Mujeres, anywhere in Cuba, anywhere in the Bahamas (except maybe Nassau) and Boot Key Harbor.

Boot Key Harbor in the Florida Keys brings up another point. There are always those commenters who say they feel safer in the Eastern Caribbean than they felt back in the states. Yet, you can cruise up and down all three U.S. coasts, sleeping with the front door open, worrying little about your dinghy and outboard being stolen, let alone being murdered.

The problems down-island were described in this story, published in September 2022, which is still valid today:

https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/crime-rebounds-in-eastern-caribbean

 

[Hippocampus]

Have also spent a bit over a decade cruising eastern Caribbean. Have spent some limited time in Bahamas (a few weeks in various years), gone up/down East coast and innumerable races to Bermuda.
I don’t care where you are all countries have low flyers and crime. Some spots have more. Sister worked at John Hopkins . We’d moor upper bay and go visit her. Carried a shillelagh and only used cabs. She’d be accompanied by a cop to go to the parking lot.dangerous place once you got away from classy part of the harbor. Same in the Bronx if anchored off city island. Don’t need to go far to be in “bonfire of the Vanities “.
Advice given in links above is valid. Noonsite and local vhf cruiser nets are helpful. Traveling in groups is helpful. Anchoring in groups is helpful. Locking when appropriate is helpful. I lived and was brought up on the lower east side of Manhattan. My doors were steel. When I had my own apartment I used the massive Fox lock. Saying you don’t lock your doors in the US is ridiculous.
End of day you either are so risk aversive you limit your life or you make yourself a target by not being realistic or you’re street smart and do what you can to manage risk.

 

[slowgoesit]

Hypothetical situation: The Goodings give a seminar about safety in Grenada to an audience of 300 people. They say 99% of the time you will be safe. I wonder what the 3 people in the audience the Goodings feel whose loss of life is acceptable feel?

 

[Mambo42]

I used to live on the island of Curacao, which is also in the Caribbean and it is just as criminal as all the other islands. Having lived there for close to 20 years I think I know a bit how it works on those islands and unfortunately it is not a positive story.
The smaller islands were less criminal in the past, but also that has changed.

Of course I can give the back ground story on why they are so criminal and no, it has nothing to do with poverty. In short, it is all about fast money, not wanting to work, a life has no value and most of them have no upbringing whatsoever.
With all of that in mind the question is: 'what are you going to do against them ?'

First of all, if you show up in a boat which is obviously an expensive boat, you will attract attention. According to them you have money and that is what they are after. That can also be your tender or just your outboard or everything of value onboard. Back in the 90's a 300 Hp outboard was stolen from my boat, at night, while the boat was still in the water, with the bow to the dock. That engine weighed about 600 lbs, so that tells you how determined they were. Also my, double axel, trailer was stolen from the premises of the marina.
The majority of these criminals are armed and will not hesitate to shoot and kill, a life means absolutely nothing to them.

It may sound over the top and obvious, but keep a low profile. Don't go around so that everyone knows within a couple of hours that rich tourists on an expensive boat have arrived. Walk around in old, dirty clothes, flip flops, don't wear jewelry and don't hang around in expensive bars near the anchorage, explaining everyone what you have done in life and how you made your money. Don't be the loudest in the bar, don't invite locals on your boat (fellow sailors is a different story), don't start giving rounds in the bar to everyone and don't tip like you would in the US. Tipping is not mandatory, they all have a salary, round off a bill to the highest next number (eg. 71 becomes 75, 74 becomes 80, but never 74 becomes 100 or 90).
If you start splashing around money word will be out on the street before you have even left the bar.
Don't think the bar tender is your best friend and don't think even a security guard is your best friend. Many times they are the one tipping off the criminals, so if you need a cover story as to why you are on this boat....use it. Say it belongs to your brother or to your father, make up a story, but get the message across you are not rich at all.
If you have an expensive boat, then stay in a guarded marina or anchor out amongst other boats, don't be the odd one out, anchoring far out all by yourself. The guarded marina is not going to keep the criminals (who arrive by boat) away, but they can come to your assistance faster than the police. And criminals don't like to get caught.
Don't go walking around in neighborhoods where you should not walk. If you don't know which neighborhoods those are then ask. On Curacao we have a short road between a hotel and a beach club, it is perhaps 500 yards long, but you cannot walk on that road at night, you have to take a cab. That is how bad it is.

If you stay out at anchor, make sure your dinghy, your outboard are locked, which means tied to the boat. If you can hoist it onboard then do so, that will make it more difficult for the criminals to steal them and they like to get in and out quick.
Don't leave valuable equipment outside at night, which means tools, cannisters of fuel, BBQ's, spares etc.

Lock your boat and have some sort of alarm system installed. That can be either a lot of light in combination with a siren or just a siren. Again, criminals don't like to be disturbed and get caught, lights and sirens will scare them away in a busy anchorage.

If you leave your boat unattended during the day, tell your neighbors that you are gone and tell them when you will be back. If they see activity around the boat during the day they know something is wrong and they can take action.

Guns ? Forget about guns. All the islands have strict gun laws and you won't be the first one to go to jail for defending your property with a gun. If you wish to use a gun be prepared to take the next step and be prepared to kill. Don't use a gun if you don't want to kill someone. And once you killed the criminal then you also have to get rid of the body. If you are out by yourself and you kill someone (at night), put them in a dinghy, go out to sea and dump the body. Then go back to your boat and remain quiet. Do not call the police. If they find the body (most of the time they don't find anything) you know nothing, heard nothing and were sound asleep. The islands don't have CSI units and this is exactly what Joran van der Sloot did when he killed Nathaly Holloway. He got away with that one and I know people on Curacao who shot and killed burglars, dumped them on the street in front of their house and then simply said they found a body on the street in front of their house. They got away with that one as well.
If you use your gun you are, under no circumstance, going to tell anyone you have used it. This is not the US, guns are illegal, so use them only if you have a plan how to clean up your mess.
If you are not willing to take that step that is fine, but then stay away from the gun.

However, best protection is still a couple of vicious dogs. It will be known quite quickly that you have aggressive dogs onboard and usually they will leave you alone. I say usually, because if they think you have tons of money and valuables onboard they will still come to your boat, poison the dogs and then take care of you.
Problem of course is that you now have to take care of the dogs. We have 3 dogs onboard, they were our dogs in Curacao, they are still with us and they don't ask questions. Crime in the Med is low to non existent, but even if there would be something we don't need to worry. Our dogs would happily enjoy a snack, they have done that a couple of times on Curacao, so we leave the doors open at night. Once they are dead it becomes a different story, but we will address that once we get to that point.

In all, the Caribbean is not the idyllic place it used to be (40 to 50 years ago). Crime is rampant and you have to be aware of that and you have to be active to prevent crime onboard. There are absolutely no guarantees you will succeed, but luckily there is also no guarantee you will get robbed or attacked. However, the chances of becoming victim of crimes is a lot higher than in other places. When I arrived in 1988 on Curacao I had never experienced a home burglary. I had my first one within one month after arrival and during that first year I had 8 burglaries.
That is when I installed iron fencing, alarm system, got 2 trained Dobermanns, who slept inside the house, had machetes and a baseball bat next to the bed.
Welcome to the Caribbean.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Good info.

We won't be going there.

 

[DavidU]

I used to live on the island of Curacao, which is also in the Caribbean and it is just as criminal as all the other islands. Having lived there for close to 20 years I think I know a bit how it works on those islands and unfortunately it is not a positive story.
The smaller islands were less criminal in the past, but also that has changed.

Of course I can give the back ground story on why they are so criminal and no, it has nothing to do with poverty. In short, it is all about fast money, not wanting to work, a life has no value and most of them have no upbringing whatsoever.
With all of that in mind the question is: 'what are you going to do against them ?'

First of all, if you show up in a boat which is obviously an expensive boat, you will attract attention. According to them you have money and that is what they are after. That can also be your tender or just your outboard or everything of value onboard. Back in the 90's a 300 Hp outboard was stolen from my boat, at night, while the boat was still in the water, with the bow to the dock. That engine weighed about 600 lbs, so that tells you how determined they were. Also my, double axel, trailer was stolen from the premises of the marina.
The majority of these criminals are armed and will not hesitate to shoot and kill, a life means absolutely nothing to them.

It may sound over the top and obvious, but keep a low profile. Don't go around so that everyone knows within a couple of hours that rich tourists on an expensive boat have arrived. Walk around in old, dirty clothes, flip flops, don't wear jewelry and don't hang around in expensive bars near the anchorage, explaining everyone what you have done in life and how you made your money. Don't be the loudest in the bar, don't invite locals on your boat (fellow sailors is a different story), don't start giving rounds in the bar to everyone and don't tip like you would in the US. Tipping is not mandatory, they all have a salary, round off a bill to the highest next number (eg. 71 becomes 75, 74 becomes 80, but never 74 becomes 100 or 90).
If you start splashing around money word will be out on the street before you have even left the bar.
Don't think the bar tender is your best friend and don't think even a security guard is your best friend. Many times they are the one tipping off the criminals, so if you need a cover story as to why you are on this boat....use it. Say it belongs to your brother or to your father, make up a story, but get the message across you are not rich at all.
If you have an expensive boat, then stay in a guarded marina or anchor out amongst other boats, don't be the odd one out, anchoring far out all by yourself. The guarded marina is not going to keep the criminals (who arrive by boat) away, but they can come to your assistance faster than the police. And criminals don't like to get caught.
Don't go walking around in neighborhoods where you should not walk. If you don't know which neighborhoods those are then ask. On Curacao we have a short road between a hotel and a beach club, it is perhaps 500 yards long, but you cannot walk on that road at night, you have to take a cab. That is how bad it is.

If you stay out at anchor, make sure your dinghy, your outboard are locked, which means tied to the boat. If you can hoist it onboard then do so, that will make it more difficult for the criminals to steal them and they like to get in and out quick.
Don't leave valuable equipment outside at night, which means tools, cannisters of fuel, BBQ's, spares etc.

Lock your boat and have some sort of alarm system installed. That can be either a lot of light in combination with a siren or just a siren. Again, criminals don't like to be disturbed and get caught, lights and sirens will scare them away in a busy anchorage.

If you leave your boat unattended during the day, tell your neighbors that you are gone and tell them when you will be back. If they see activity around the boat during the day they know something is wrong and they can take action.

Guns ? Forget about guns. All the islands have strict gun laws and you won't be the first one to go to jail for defending your property with a gun. If you wish to use a gun be prepared to take the next step and be prepared to kill. Don't use a gun if you don't want to kill someone. And once you killed the criminal then you also have to get rid of the body. If you are out by yourself and you kill someone (at night), put them in a dinghy, go out to sea and dump the body. Then go back to your boat and remain quiet. Do not call the police. If they find the body (most of the time they don't find anything) you know nothing, heard nothing and were sound asleep. The islands don't have CSI units and this is exactly what Joran van der Sloot did when he killed Nathaly Holloway. He got away with that one and I know people on Curacao who shot and killed burglars, dumped them on the street in front of their house and then simply said they found a body on the street in front of their house. They got away with that one as well.
If you use your gun you are, under no circumstance, going to tell anyone you have used it. This is not the US, guns are illegal, so use them only if you have a plan how to clean up your mess.
If you are not willing to take that step that is fine, but then stay away from the gun.

However, best protection is still a couple of vicious dogs. It will be known quite quickly that you have aggressive dogs onboard and usually they will leave you alone. I say usually, because if they think you have tons of money and valuables onboard they will still come to your boat, poison the dogs and then take care of you.
Problem of course is that you now have to take care of the dogs. We have 3 dogs onboard, they were our dogs in Curacao, they are still with us and they don't ask questions. Crime in the Med is low to non existent, but even if there would be something we don't need to worry. Our dogs would happily enjoy a snack, they have done that a couple of times on Curacao, so we leave the doors open at night. Once they are dead it becomes a different story, but we will address that once we get to that point.

In all, the Caribbean is not the idyllic place it used to be (40 to 50 years ago). Crime is rampant and you have to be aware of that and you have to be active to prevent crime onboard. There are absolutely no guarantees you will succeed, but luckily there is also no guarantee you will get robbed or attacked. However, the chances of becoming victim of crimes is a lot higher than in other places. When I arrived in 1988 on Curacao I had never experienced a home burglary. I had my first one within one month after arrival and during that first year I had 8 burglaries.
That is when I installed iron fencing, alarm system, got 2 trained Dobermanns, who slept inside the house, had machetes and a baseball bat next to the bed.
Welcome to the Caribbean.

Well damn. I hate it when reality interrupts fantasy. All good to know.

 

[Hippocampus]

Yup. Ditto on what Mambo said. Unfortunately reality interrupts. Friend has house in Sopers hole BVI. 8’ concrete wall on street side with razor wire on top. Wanted no one to be able to see the house or grounds. 10’ wire topped fence on water side with locked gate to dock on water side. Same setup you see in Biscay Bay FL.
For you cruisers with houses. Did you preplan and install security and monitoring systems in your dirt dwelling for the times you’re off cruising? I view this as a much more general problem than just for cruisers or just for the Caribbean.
BTW edged weapons and spearguns aren’t illegal in many jurisdictions.
NYT had a good current summary in today’s publication for those interested.

 

[ofer]

Thanks Mambo42 for the very detailed and informed post.

gave me lots to think about perusing my dream of traveling to remote destinations.

the one positive is my boat doesn't make me look rich.

 

[Hippocampus]

There’s a measurement in epidemiology called absolute risk. It’s different than attribute risk or odds ratios. It’s a good way to think about various risks like being murdered, dying in a plane crash , lethal car crash. So you look at Noonsite and US government saying Bahamas is unsafe. Then look at the particulars and say I’m going to chicken harbor so I’m ok. Or you look at this story and say it made such a splash because it was so horrific and unusual. Noonsite hasn’t changed its guidance. What mambo said is universally true. We haven’t gone to Haiti for 20 years. Have no issue with Dominican Republic but stick to the marinas. Same island with markly different risks depending upon where you are. St George is safe. No big risk of bad happening inside the harbor. Has my favorite German restaurant. Will still go there. But always think about safety. At home on land and when traveling. World is turning to SH-T.

 

[guy with a boat]

Yup. Ditto on what Mambo said. Unfortunately reality interrupts…

Ditto? Aren’t you the guy that just equated Caribbean crime to locking your doors in Manhattan? To wear old clothes and stay out of the worst neighborhoods and you’ll be fine?

We have travelled a fair amount to many countries including pretty extensive time in the Caribbean. Also traveling in the US, including 47 of the 50 states. I generally stay out of these debates, but to equate US crime to the Caribbean, Mexico and/or much of the outside world is just not accepting reality. Yes, there are bad US neighborhoods and good neighborhoods in poor countries. The proportions of each and the extent and nature of the crime are often not the same universe. Those that insist on denying this reality baffle me.

Is it possible to travel widely and stay out of trouble? Sure, and we are among those that have done so. Does that mean the risk is remotely the same in the US as it is in these locations we have discussed? Not even close. Travel where you would like and do what you want, but IMO its not helpful to pretend as if the risk of really bad stuff happening isn’t significant or real.

 

[Andy G]

I do not understand why anyone would want to live/cruise in area where people feel so threatened to put razor wire around their property, have trained 'attack dogs' & readily discuss how to dispose of a body.

There must be another side to this, why else would people venture down there.

FWIW, I am happy to stay our side of the pond where most of the danger comes from the animal world not human. Apart from the sharks and Croc's most of our other 'dangerous' animals don't actively hunt you.

 

[Jklotz]

I do not understand why anyone would want to live/cruise in area where people feel so threatened to put razor wire around their property, have trained 'attack dogs' & readily discuss how to dispose of a body.

There must be another side to this, why else would people venture down there.

FWIW, I am happy to stay our side of the pond where most of the danger comes from the animal world not human. Apart from the sharks and Croc's most of our other 'dangerous' animals don't actively hunt you.

This was an incredibly unfortunate, one off incident. Very sad. I hate that these things happen and it breaks my heart, not only for them, but the family they left behind. But many folks have traveled down there and been just fine. I'm not in a position to judge anybody else. If folks want to stay where it's safe, I get it. Life's easier that way. The older I get, the more I probably err to that line of thinking.

In 2005, I rode a motorcycle solo from Atlanta, GA to Ushuaia, Argentina, the southern tip of South America, 800 miles from Antarctica. 16K miles total. I went through Mexico, Central America and South America, all the way to the end. I took 6 months to do it. I saw penguins there. Everybody I knew thought I was crazy, they told me I would be killed. I had a few incidences, but mostly had an amazing experience. I met some incredible people, experienced some amazing cultures, traded in 14 different currencies and learned so much. The music, food, friends! So many fond memories from that trip. I'm so glad I did it, it was a life changing experience and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'm a bit old to take on an adventure like that now. I don't have the physical stamina anymore. But as I embark on my retirement, I hope that I might be able to find the same spirit of adventure on a boat. I can't wait for the first time I can dock up in a foreign country and go get my passport stamped.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, as tragic as it was, those folks met their end living their dream. We all got to go at some point. Might as well do it living your dream. Course' I'm not one for watching TV or playing bingo, but that's just me.

 

[hollywood8118]

JKlotz,
unfortunately its not a one off incident, and its hollow to say " they died doing something the loved". It just plain sucks. The Caribbean has a long history of brutality and theft, both petty and violent. Just look at the news of Haiti right now, people who have less will always take from people who have more. Any cruise that heads south of the US border needs to have onboard security addressed. Its wishful thinking to think it will not happen to us because we are anchored in a secluded place and thing bad guys wont come to the boat. Locking the boat up at night is a must, or a great alarm system or big ass dog that will make a ton of noise if someone touches the boat. Lifting the dinghy up and cable locking it to the boat is a must, unless you want to buy a new tender and motor. Keeping hatches open at night they should be cabled to keep a bad actor from being able to open it while you sleep.


Mambo42's write up was superb, especially the part about guns.



Likely we will never get the entire story about the recent tragedy, and that is probably a good thing. It sickens me to think about what poor couple endured, those three should be tossed overboard in the middle of ten gallons of bloody chum. It would let them experience the fear they put that couple through.. and give them time to think about it. Hanging is too quick.



Brutal ? calloused ? excessive ? Just turnabout in my mind.
Hollywood

 

[Mambo42]

I do not understand why anyone would want to live/cruise in area where people feel so threatened to put razor wire around their property, have trained 'attack dogs' & readily discuss how to dispose of a body.

There must be another side to this, why else would people venture down there.

I don't know if you will understand my reasons for living in the Caribbean, but here they are.

Originally I am from the Netherlands, which is very wet, depressing and way too busy (already in the 80's). Unfortunately during the winter season I was mostly sick, which meant I could not fly that much. I have had that all my life, it is something I have to live with. So when I had the chance to go to the Caribbean I instantly liked it (always warm), but I first had to find out what that was all about.
So got a couple of videos about life on Curacao. Nothing about the criminal nature of the island, all you see is sun, sea and happiness.

And that part is still there. It is always nice weather, no need for winter clothes and best of all: I was almost never sick. The flying was great and I actually got paid for that.
The crime was a not so nice part. 8 Burglaries in the first year is not what you plan for, but after I took my defense measures it became quiet. Most of the burglars were drug addicts who need money so they can buy drugs. However, they will always take the house which is easier to break into. The whole neighborhood knew my house had turned into a fortress with vicious dogs inside. And they will spread the word, so that brought me some safety.

After my first tour I went back to Europe, but instantly got the same health issues. So when I got the opportunity to go back I did not have to think twice.
Knowing what I would encounter I searched for a house in a gated area. That gave a lot of protection, so lived there in peace and quiet. Going out on the other hand was a different story, but when you live on the island you will know exactly where you can go and where you cannot go. The areas where you cannot go.........you just don't go. However, when you have to work 6 days a week you also don't go out every single day. Although there are many tourists on the island, for us it is work, we live there, it is not a constant party.

Over the years however crime has become more violent. Where we had mostly burglars in the 80's and 90's we now have a new generation for whom a human life has no value. They have not had any upbringing and what they had was by their criminal parents. And this new generation will do armed robberies with a lot of violence. That caused me to leave the island in the beginning of the 2000's, we had 90+ murders in one year on an island with only 130.000 inhabitants. Drive by shootings, murders in broad daylight on the street, it became too much.
So I left, but had to deal again with the bad weather in Europe. In 2009 I decided to go back to Curacao, it had calmed down a bit. But after Corona it seemed like the criminals had to make up for lost time. Where in the beginning of the new millennium they went after businesses, they now decided to start robbing houses with violence. And as a white person you stand out on the island, which means you are a target.
Luckily we had the chance to retire and spend most of the year on our boat in the Med. The Med is still peaceful and quiet, temperatures in summer are perfect, we just need to get through the few winter months.
We still miss the perfect climate of the Caribbean, but we don't miss the crime.

And as for getting rid of the body. That is something you will learn when you live on the island. Too many people who defended their house, their family were thrown in jail for 'excessive force' or even 'murder' after they killed a robber.
A friend of mine (owner of a restaurant) was shot and killed by a 16 year old during a robbery, another friend saw his business go down the drain when criminals killed 2 persons in his restaurant during an armed robbery. The brother of another friend went to jail when he shot and killed a robber in his business.
However, the neighbor of a colleague simply shot and killed a robber, shoved him on the street and closed his doors. He was never charged, nobody said a word and the police never really investigated.
Quite often you read in the newspaper that a 'body' has been found, but they never figure out what happened. Some chollers (drug addicts) simply disappear one day, nobody knows where they went.

In other words, when you live on the island you need to think about what you are going to do if push comes to shove. Let's say you are in your house and one or more persons enter the house, rape your wife, beat you up, perhaps want to kill you. What will you do ? If you have to think about it when it happens it is too late.
Your defense has to be build up in such a way that you will know what to do if a certain line is crossed. Some people do nothing, others do act and that is their decision.
Luckily I never had to get to that point, but my dogs have attacked a few persons that had entered the terrain without permission. We have found blood trails in the garden and on the driveway, but never found out who they took apart. Criminals don't have the habit of walking to the police to complain. They tend to keep their mouth shut. We never heard anything as it happened while we were asleep.

When you live in a safe country hearing these stories makes you wonder why anyone would want to live there. But once you adapt to the threat and be conscious about your safety you will be fine. Choosing the right place to live is very important as is keeping a very low profile.

 

[delirious duo]

https://www.hoplitearmor.com/produc...Q2VxXeYbU_A1NbrLFU_tC-Kop3IbyMDxoCCdMQAvD_BwE

Not a gun! Been handy fun at the beach too.

 

[Mambo42]

Don't know if anyone has already seen or heard the latest news. This is an update on the story and there is a chance the US will ask for extradition of the 3 criminals.
I don't even want to think about what this couple had to go through, these 3 deserve the death penalty for what they did.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have lived on a sailboat in the Caribbean for 6- 9m/yr for over a decade. No robberies and no violent crime. But daily awareness of risk. Yes some of this is dumb luck but much of this is risk management.
Crime varies with locale as does policing. I have never gone to curaçao as I was aware of the situation Mambo describes. I’ve gone to St.Vincent a very few times and only in a flotilla of fellow cruisers who I’ve know for some time. I’ve gone and stayed in various places in the grenadines however. Again in the company of other boats. We rarely used marinas but only those with excellent security. There’s a strong cruiser community throughout the eastern Caribbean. You meet many of the same people over and over again as you move from island to island. You question and listen to others where’s safe, and where there are people and things to do to keep you happy and safe. When thinking about anchoring or using a marina you know in advance what’s up with that place. Daily you listen to the vhf net and you read noonsite when you can.
Unlike a house boats can move. Each day and place is different and imposes different risks so different behavior. Even within a country your behavior is different. Let’s take the BVIs. If in Roadtown I’m out only during the day. I’m hyper alert. Do my chores and return to the boat. Other than watching a cricket match I don’t hang around. If in Sopers I might spend an evening on land. I might have a few drinks with dinner. I might return to the boat after dark. Same if in Rodney Bay v the rest of that country. Or LeMarin/St. Anne’s v the rest of Martinique. Or with the example at hand if in the marina at St. George the security is excellent and there’s little risk.
I am originally from NYC. I wouldn’t go to the south Bronx at night but have no issues in midtown. The crime issue is pervasive and cannot be dismissed. Still it is manageable as long as you accept there’s places that are off limits and times of day that are safer than others. Yes it’s another chore to always put the dinghy up on the davits nightly. To pick an anchoring spot far enough away from shore to make for a long swim but still surrounded by other boats. Yes except for the boating areas there’s whole countries where risk is increased. Trinidad might be considered an example by some.
Mambo’s experience is valid but he had a house so a fixed target. Would I buy a house in the eastern Caribbean. Yes I would but where and the particulars would depend upon crime risk. Wouldn’t have much issue with St.Barts, parts of BVI, French side of St.Martin or even Saba. There are still many islands which aren’t major drug transport routes, have decent economics and not dependent on crime for survival, reasonably governed without major corruption. People say Caribbean. It’s isn’t homogeneous. Very different cultures island to island. When we were in USVI the chief of police went to jail but so did the one from the neighboring town at home. Mambo talks about the med. Close friend goes to Italy once a year for a few months for family. Says crime there has dramatically changed. Won’t stay with family on the southern islands as the culture has changed.

 

[sunchaser]

For those of us who've worked, lived and traveled in numerous world locations there are spot on travel briefs from a variety of government notifications covering concerns in great detail. Even the most basic of briefs are easy enough to find.

Travel agents, cruising guides and anecdotal rumors fuel the Jimmy Buffett ideal of pina coladas in the sunset. We've all read time and again on various forums about how safe Latin America and Caribbean locations are and "we made it" just fine, thus further rousing our cruising fantasies.

This tragedy will be repeated time and again on the unwary or those who accept risk to a further extent than practical. I've lost way too many friends and workmates around the world who ventured into easily avoidable situations. Tis the nature of man to assume safety exists while in the midst of those who believe just the opposite.