Weather "Window" Advice Needed/Wanted

[stroutmail]

Getting ready to move my 1984 Grand Banks 36 Classic that I just acquired all the way from one end of the Chesapeake to the other (200 miles from Chesapeake (Norfolk) to Havre de Grace.)

Fairly confident of my seamanship and the boat, however I decided that it would be very prudent to hire a professional Captain who delivers yachts for a living to accompany me. (I am sure I will learn a lot and I am not familiar with Norfolk, Hampton Roads and York Spit waters.)

Most likely, what the boat and the young professional Captain can take is much different from what my 70 year old body will take. I have sailed for 12 hours in a 30 footer, but the bay was pretty calm. I have sailed in the Gulf out of Fort Myers in rough 4 foot waves and did not like it at all--but that was in a sail boat heeled over.

I am looking at one possible time frame where winds are 25-35 mph, from the north, and with full bay to build fetch, will build 4 foot waves. I am not sure that I want to deal with 12 hours of sailing directly into the wind with 4 foot seas. And I figure that much wind would cut about 1-2 mph off the boat speed--making a long trip even longer.

My ideal would be typical 5-15 mph winds, and 1-2 foot waves. So wondering if that is too conservative for this boat.

I am in no particular hurry, other than I am paying for two slips and would like to get the boat to "home" port so I can start doing some maintenance "tinkering".

Looking for advice from more experienced Captains.

 

[psneeld]

Yes on the 5-15 winds.

Even 15 knots will be miserable if on the beam or against several knots of tidal current that will occur in a few spots.

25-35 knots on the nose would make you want to give up boating.

The hired captain should be able to give you a leg by leg versus weather evaluation.

 

[tpbrady]

I would go downwind with 4 feet but not into it. I don’t know tidal currents in your area but a couple knots of tide opposing the wind would make 4 into 6 or more. 4 on the bow would force you to slow down when see the occasional 5-6 otherwise you porpoise too much. Our rule of thumb is we will go with 3 on the bow as long as we are out of it before the tide opposes it. We will go downwind in 4 unless the tide will turn and cause it to build.

Tom

 

[PPandE]

In general, if it ain’t fun, don’t do it.

 

[stroutmail]

Here is Google Drive link to one forecast--not headwind--winds from starboard:



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QSKYW9I0nBo9FdJUUQsC0fCaDu-y8s2e/view?usp=sharing

Looks like "no fun" to me.

Thanks for the quick feedback!

 

[DavidM]

Your experience with a sailboat beating into 4' seas will be nothing like a trawler. It will be much rougher. The sails stabilize the boat and even though you would have been heeling significantly in the sailboat, it will be worse on a trawler.

4' seas would be my limit on the Chesapeake, maybe less if on the nose.

David

 

[rslifkin]

4 foot smooth rollers on the nose when the wind dies down a bit and the waves haven't yet isn't bad. 4 foot steep, wind-driven chop on the nose is quite unpleasant in most boats, particularly most powerboats. Running with 4 footers isn't too bad depending on the boat's handling characteristics and speed capability.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. s. "I am in no particular hurry,". If in doubt, wait it out. I can fully appreciate your desire to become "intimate" with your new mistress but IF you're at all concerned, just wait. This is supposed to be fun, after all.

Not a bad idea to hire a captain as long as he understands you don't go until YOU say so. Enjoy...

Edit: Just re-read your OP. I am NOT an experienced captain BUT I keep a VERY close eye on the weather and have stayed in port on more than one occasion when I've felt uncomfortable.

 

[stroutmail]

This youtube is a GB36 on the Chesapeake Bay. Too much "motion in the ocean" for a 12 hour day at least for me.

https://youtu.be/JsSUicyh0yI

 

[menzies]

After a nasty crossing aiming for Grand Cay two years ago trying to beat a front which came in early and we ended up going into Great Sale in the dark on instruments with the Hollywood special effects guy throwing buckets of water onto our black PH windows, my wife has implemented a new rule.

We look for a decent three day window, and we go on the second day.

Stay in the berth, 25 gusting 35 will NOT be any fun.

 

[SOJOURN4]

Pick a few marinas = mouth pf the Potomac, Solomons, etc.
Bay will change as you move North with more marinas to tuck into. (Haven Harbor, Knapps Narrows, etc.)
If you can play the wind and the tide together = much easier ride
3' on the Chesapeake is pretty normal
Good luck

 

[mvweebles]

I'll be a bit of a contrarian here. First, this is a week away, so a lot can and will change. Second, I don't know much of the Chesapeake, but I did a quick geography lesson via Google and a weather chart off PassageWeather.Com (wx chart attached for early next Wednesday May 20th). Current forecast is winds will be out of east so you should be able to stay in the lee of the peninsula and keep fetch down to bare minimum. Of course, I haven't checked the nav charts so this may not be a feasible route, but from high level, it's a good option to investigate. But maybe others know the Chesapeake well - hopefully, your delivery captain has local knowledge.

By way of example, the Gulf of Teuhentepec SE of Hualtulco MX is notorious for very high winds fron NNE that build quickly (known as T-Peckers). It's tempting to cross the bay - about 100 nms - to save distance but you can easily find yourself 50-nms offshore in 50+ kt sustained winds. Fairly large ships have been lost in this area. A much safer route is to hug the coastline which adds something like 30 nms. I've been through it twice - once was quiet, second time I had 40-kt winds and stayed 1-2 m off the beach and never saw more than 3-foot chop.

I'm about 10-years behind you and I've lost the fire in my belly for threading weather needles. But this one looks doable if the weather moderates a bit and if the eastern shore is a reasonable route. I'd look closely at hugging the east coast even if the winds aren't 25kts.

Good luck!

Peter

 

[SOJOURN4]

MVWEELES -


MY Captain and I are 65 and we have a 44 trawler. Traveled the Chesapeake for 15 years. Yes there will be good Wx days and days you stay where you are - but most days you can move a few miles and enjoy the stops.
Take a few minutes to review Active Captain, find a few get out of "Dodge" locations and plan based on the wind AND the tides
Once you get passed the Annapolis Bridge - your life will change with a nice ride to HG -

Once you get off the Chesapeake channel - follow the channel for a beautiful ride into HG

 

[mvweebles]

MVWEELES -

MY Captain and I are 65 and we have a 44 trawler. Traveled the Chesapeake for 15 years. Yes there will be good Wx days and days you stay where you are - but most days you can move a few miles and enjoy the stops.
Take a few minutes to review Active Captain, find a few get out of "Dodge" locations and plan based on the wind AND the tides
Once you get passed the Annapolis Bridge - your life will change with a nice ride to HG -

Once you get off the Chesapeake channel - follow the channel for a beautiful ride into HG

Sojourn - I am not the OP, I just read the thread. I used to be a delivery captain out of San Francisco between Alaska and Mexico so fancy myself pretty good at finding ways to knock-back weather, though that was a long time ago. When I see threads like this, I often take the bait and look at the geography and the weather and dust-off my ancient skills. To my eyes, I was not put-off immediately due to ability to stay in lee and greatly limit fetch.

Sounds like you have the local knowledge the OP could use - I have no idea of tides/currents for example. I am just saying I wouldn't be too quick to shelve the trip due to high winds. First, it's over a week away. Second, 25-kts blowing over a nearby landmass is not a problem (assuming there's navigable waters).

Thanks Sojourn -

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

Here is Google Drive link to one forecast--not headwind--winds from starboard:

Winds are from the east, so would be on your port beam, correct?

 

[stroutmail]

Winds are from the east, so would be on your port beam, correct?

Winds are forecast from east....since I am going north...wind will be from my right, so I call that wind on my starboard side. I think your map is labeled incorrectly...Norfolk is near south of bay..Havre de Grace is far north.

But your advice to sail closer to eastern shore is interesting. The west side is more populated with more marinas and ports...so I just always think about sailing to close to west.

And, of course..weather forecasts 1 week in advance are often very wrong...the aviation forecasts are quite different from the marine one I quoted. Week forward forecasts are educated guesses but still guesses.

 

[mvweebles]

Winds are forecast from east....since I am going north...wind will be from my right, so I call that wind on my starboard side. I think your map is labeled incorrectly...Norfolk is near south of bay..Havre de Grace is far north.

But your advice to sail closer to eastern shore is interesting. The west side is more populated with more marinas and ports...so I just always think about sailing to close to west.

And, of course..weather forecasts 1 week kn advance are often very wrong...t ht e aviation forecasts are quite different from the marine OK ne I quoted. Week forward forecasts are educated guesses but still guesses.

Yep. So much for my geography lesson. I've said a bit on the Chesapeake. But was over 20 years ago and I was a simple passenger.

Regardless, looks like the east wind gives you some flexibility on weather conditions. I hope you continue the thread with your trip details. Even though I don't know the area well, I for one enjoy peering into a trip like this.

BTW - GB36 is a great boat. Ride is a bit wet, but tradeoff is it cuts through chop a bit better. Best I can tell, a perfect boat for gunk holing in the Chesapeake.

I'll. One up on my geography soon

 

[stroutmail]

If I was traveling by myself, I would simply go when comfortable...pull into a safe harbor if too rough and wait. "Enjoy the stops as mentioned". Then leave and continue when weather is good again.

But, my delivery captain wanted to make the trip in two long days...I insisted we take three to avoid risk of docking after dark. So I pretty much need to make the trip in a three day "window" or I guess I could just bite the bullet and pay for his fee for 4 or 5 days.

 

[mvweebles]

If I was traveling by myself, I would simply go when comfortable...pull into a safe harbor if too rough and wait. "Enjoy the stops as mentioned". Then leave and continue when weather is good again.

But, my delivery captain wanted to make the trip in two long days...I insisted we take three to avoid risk of docking after dark. So I pretty much need to make the trip in a three day "window" or I guess I could just bite the bullet and pay for his fee for 4 or 5 days.

Final thought (hopefully without typos).

My last professional delivery was 2004 and I had a decent reputation for keeping a boat moving. To avoid docking at night, I would sometimes anchor out. Can still be unnerving especially if there are winds or currents, but was much faster in and out than docking in a marina. Much easier to leave pre-dawn from an anchor if desired.

 

[stroutmail]

Thinking about that "easter shore" route..I could make for Cape Charles...facilities there if needed BUT would have 20 miles of water with open exposure to the east from the ocean. That is 3 hours...once close to east shore, should be more tolerable. I was kinda hoping to "hug" the west coast to be able to tuck in if needed.

 

[ranger58sb]

Yes, what psn said...

3-4s on the Chesapeake will beat you up. Short period, slam. 5-15 winds is usually OK unless winds are against tides, in which case 15 could beat you up, too.

We look for windows where winds/tides are in the same direction, or at least not 180° opposed.

There are several possible stop-offs along the way, so you can do some sightseeing during the trip, too.

-Chris

 

[psneeld]

Plus, there are lees... then they dissapear due to the very irregular coastline. The only lee I ever found worth using was a stretch on the Western shore between the Solomons and Herring Bay due to the cliffs and depth near shore. Even then the stretch on the Pax river could be brutal.

Too many crab floats and traps to hug some shores to boot.

Even the upper bay can be uncomfortable for some boats but yes the Bay Bridge is usually a welcome sight.

 

[mvweebles]

Yes, what psn said...

3-4s on the Chesapeake will beat you up. Short period, slam. 5-15 winds is usually OK unless winds are against tides, in which case 15 could beat you up, too.

We look for windows where winds/tides are in the same direction, or at least not 180° opposed.

There are several possible stop-offs along the way, so you can do some sightseeing during the trip, too.

-Chris

My understanding is this trip is a delivery with a burn rate of around $500/day for skipper plus marina and meals. Call it $650/day by the time it's done. Time is of the essence

A decent delivery captain with local knowledge will earn his keep. 25+ kts across more than a few miles of fetch on the beam is not tenable. 4 hours (20-nms) on the nose to get to a protected shore might be, especially if there is daily cycle to the winds such as morning being lighter. I have no idea. Deliveries often involve powering through some sucky conditions to get to the other side. As Wayne Gretzky used to say, you skate to where the puck will be.

I have zero local knowledge. All I'm saying is there is often ways to keep a boat moving safely and in relative comfort in weather where you might prefer to stay in port, which is the exam question here. If the skipper is a professional delivery person, he will not take gratuitous risks - the boat will take more than its occupants but that doesn't mean stuff won't get broken (dishes, spray damage, dents in floor due to fridge opening, etc). Problem often comes up with part time captains who may have a lot of time on a boat (a sailing school instructor, for example) , but not a professional delivery skipper.

But I repeat. 25 kts of sustained wind over more than about 5 miles of fetch hitting a 36 footer on the beam is not tenable. You will be lucky to make 5 kts, maybe 6 on average.

I'll look forward to seeing how the weather evolves.

 

[caltexflanc]

Here's a pic of the Chesapeake in conditions the OP was asking about. We were heading south on an otherwise very nice day. Picture is taken from 12' above the water. Just us and these guys out. The tricky, and very tough part was the right turn into Norfolk.
The Chesapeake typically has very choppy and steep conditions in a blow, rather than anything like ocean swells.

 

[stroutmail]

Yes..that section from Norfolk north to north of York River or Cape Charles is it the section I worry about..

 

[stroutmail]

My delivery captain kinda confirmed that 3 foot seas in the Chesapeake are generally a "no go" as a forecast of 3 feet generally means encountering some much larger. And his "tolerance" depends on wind direction..wind and waves on the stern more tolerable than winds and waves on the bow or beam. So we will be waiting until that low pressure system moves on.

 

[psneeld]

Again it depends.

The lower Chess. is wide open and zigging to the Eastern Shore till past Mobjack Bay can be productive in Easterly winds.

Crossing the mouth of the Patomac can get exciting depending on winds/current as well as passing the narrows at Cove Point up neat Pax river.

As I said back in post #2, your captain should be able to explain leg by leg what weather will do to the Bay....if not PM me to call me.

I too was a delivery Capt. ......And at $500 a day he better be the best....plus a darn good mechanic too.

 

[stroutmail]

Again it depends.

The lower Chess. is wide open and zigging to the Eastern Shore till past Mobjack Bay can be productive in Easterly winds.

Crossing the mouth of the Patomac can get exciting depending on winds/current as well as passing the narrows at Cove Point up neat Pax river.

As I said back in post #2, your captain should be able to explain leg by leg what weather will do to the Bay....if not PM me to call me.

I too was a delivery Capt. ......And at $500 a day he better be the best....plus a darn good mechanic too.

He comes very highly recommended by several people. He has a Masters 100 Ton License and he claims to be a good mechanic. $400 for a 10 hour day. So in essence $40/hr. Plus, I pay his travel expense (car rental) back home. I figure cost of trip is around $1900-2000 incl marina costs and fuel if we can make it in 3 days.

I figure the cost is more than just delivery, as I will certainly know my boat and be a better Captain from the experience. Delivery/Yacht Familiarization/Chesapeake Voyaging Training.

Sort of like the process/cost I went thru getting my "taildragger" endorsement. Even with a Pilot's License, you need about 15-20 hours of "Dual" training with an instructor to make sure you can land a tailwheel plane safely in wind. I was a pretty experienced pilot, but landing my Cub was a challenge at first. In a crosswind, landing is tricky and requires a lot of practice to stay proficient and to build skills from a 8 mph crosswind to about 15 mph. Over 15 mph crosswind-you look for another runway with a different landing direction. Sailing and flying are a lot similar.

 

[psneeld]

I dont think I have met too many delivery captains that dont come highly recommended....so good luck.

If boating and flying were all that similar, you probably wouldn't need a captain....

 

[stroutmail]

I dont think I have met too many delivery captains that dont come highly recommended....so good luck.

If boating and flying were all that similar, you probably wouldn't need a captain....

The problem with analogies is somebody always makes fun of you after you try to compare two different things that have a little similarity.

And, whenever you hire a stranger or any professional, references from people you know and trust are an important part of the decision process. Not references from the person you are considering (that would be silly) but from people you know and trust that know that person. Every thing with a grain of salt tho. Most use references for doctors, lawyers, dentists, investment professionals and yes---yacht crews. Do you have a better way???