Outlets in Engine Room?

[oak_box]

I haven't seen it in any of my recent boats - but is there any reason not to have an electrical outlet in the engine room? My boat has gas engines - so I have to be sure that the engine room is well vented before I go plugging stuff in - but seems like it would be handy to have an outlet down there...

 

[oscar]

I have them...... in my diesel rooms. No gas for me. I would think twice....

 

[Comodave]

I don’t think that it is allowed in gas engine rooms, but I may be wrong. But in either case I wouldn’t do it with gas engines. Diesel no problem.

 

[OldDan1943]

You have a gas engine? I forgive you but, I hope you buy a diesel boat in the future.
120Vt in the engine room of a gas boat? Not a good idea and hope you dont do it.

 

[O C Diver]

Too much risk, IMO.

Ted

 

[bglad]

ABYC does not appear to specifically disallow them but with a caveat. They would need to be a GFCI type which could be accomplished outside the engine room. Even then you would still have the risk of creating a spark while plugging/unplugging the outlet. If you are careful when using it you should be OK. I am sure most 120-volt tools one might use in an engine compartment are not ignition protected either:

11.13.3.5 If installed in a head, galley, machinery space, or on a weather deck, the receptacle shall be protected by a Type A (nominal 5 milliamperes) Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) (see E-11.11).
NOTE: GFCI receptacle devices are not necessarily ignition protected per E-11.5.1.4.

 

[FF]

Be safe , use an extension cord.

 

[psneeld]

Depending on how deep into the ER, wouldn't the normal person probably smell gas before plugging in? Even harder to plug in and cause a spark than start an engine or blower or whatever?


With them high in the bilge also probably contributing to safety.


You could rig a sniffer circuit to power a relay that wouldn't allow power to them if fumes were present.


So there may be enough "safety" precautions to mitigate the danger.



One should research to make sure it isn't a "ABYC" issue (if one cares) then evaluate their own risk management of the dangers.

 

[rslifkin]

It could be done safely enough, but after having the same thought about it on my gas boat, I decided against it. I've got outlets only a couple feet away from the engine room hatch anyway, so it's easy enough to just plug something in there and drop it down the hole.

Psneeld's point about smelling gas is a good one. You can smell gas long before it's enough to be explosive. In most cases that's of limited utility, but in this case, your nose would have to be down there to use the outlets.

 

[ScottC]

I would not even consider it due to explosion risk.

 

[psneeld]

Here's a lead for further investigation....


"The problem here is that the GFCI receptacles typically used by boatbuilders or even marine electricians are not rated for ignition protection, as required for electrical devices installed in spaces where gasoline engines or tanks may be located. Ignition-protected components are available but at great cost; they’re used in hospitals and medical facilities areas where oxygen might be in use. The last time I priced one I think it was about $90 for one outlet."


https://www.boats.com/reviews/engine-room-electrical-outlets-gfci-protection/

 

[rgano]

Do you guys with gas boats consider the ignition protection of EVERY power tool/light taken down to the ER?

 

[rslifkin]

Do you guys with gas boats consider the ignition protection of EVERY power tool/light taken down to the ER?

No, but those are never left down there or powered up unattended, which greatly reduces the risk. In my mind, if a gas boat had engine room outlets and they weren't ignition protected (and had a vapor tight cover to seal them when not in use), the breaker should be turned off after every use. The use of the outlets is a fairly low risk, but I'd worry about them being left powered up unattended (especially with something like a non ignition protected GFCI).

 

[firehoser75]

My 2 cents, error on the side of safety. Will you always remember to do the "right things"? What about future owners, who may not be aware or ...?
Gasoline vapours are unbelievably flammable (actually explosive by the way most people consider it), but the flammable range is relatively small when compared to something like acetylene. Still nothing to take for granted.

 

[psneeld]

Out of all the ways a gas boat is probably gonna catch fire or blow up...somehow I don't think installing a proper outlet, turning it on when necessary and using it wisely is hardly even on my worry scale.

As many times as I have accidently unplugged from an extension cord with a live load (thus causing a spark), that would be a bigger worry.

A sniff before you start is all it takes to be pretty safe....no matter what you are doing with a gas boat.....I take gas seriously, but not scared of it.

I would be more nervous running than anything else....and I ran a gas assistance towboat for 15 years, thousands of hours while sitting on the engine box.

 

[rslifkin]

A sniff before you start is all it takes to be pretty safe....no matter what you are doing with a gas boat.....I take gas seriously, but not scared of it.

It always amazes me how many people with gas boats never seem to pop the engine hatch for a sniff. I've had plenty of people think I'm mildly crazy for my personal rules:

• Engines checked (smells, fluids, belts, etc.) before first start of every day
• Manual engine room / bilge check after fueling
• Blowers turned on only after above checks (that way any minor fumes will be smelled before they're vented out) and always run several minutes before engine/generator start
• Fume detector on whenever anything is running or boat is at anchor and during fueling

I don't go as far as some and run the blowers non-stop when the engines are running, however. I'll usually turn them off about 5 minutes after we get moving, as things are well vented at that point and there's a good bit of air moving through the engine room. Blowers do stay running if we're stationary with the generator running.

I also have a slight dis-trust for fuel injection on gas boats. Not because of reliability or anything, but because a leak after the fuel pump while running is a much worse scenario with fuel injection at 40+ psi than a carb at 5 psi (and where the only pressurized fuel is a short line from pump to carb).

 

[rsn48]

My sort of hero - Jeff Cote of Pacific Yachting Systems - does short vids now since Covid began (roughly). He answers questions such as this, his thing - electrical and electronics. It was around the question of a small heater in the engine room, hard wired or plug in. Lets see if I can find it.

Here you go:

 

[firehoser75]

Scott,
You always give advise based on good knowledge and experience. Not everyone has the equivalent. At the basic level, I do not totally disagree with you (most times). However, I most often error on the side of safety when giving advice, as I have too often seen tragic examples where "common sense" was not commonly used or lapses of judgement had occurred!!!
That is why we have things like "standards, regulations, rules, etc." that are always aimed at trying to protect people (mostly from themselves) and to achieve this, are often aimed at the lowest common denominator. When responding to these topics, I answer based on these safety standards because that is the prudent thing to do, especially since I do not know the skills, knowledge, and abilities of the (all) people reading the advice.

You are in fact correct, people work with and around gas safely (no bad results) all of the time. However, when the standards are not followed, occasionally bad things can result when things go wrong or steps are missed.

For example, I looked at a boat (when shopping) that had survived for a long time where the owner stored a plastic gas can and a spare 20 lb. propane bottle in an enclosed (no drain) lazarette below the cockpit floor. Also in this laz, was 2 lead acid batteries, a battery charger, and the motor for the electric stern thruster. I don't think anyone would suggest this was a "good practise", yet he "got away with it", and apparently did not know any better!
I guess we have slightly different viewpoints on these things

 

[psneeld]

I just pointed out that the use of extension cords down there may be more dangerous for the same reason.

The use of power tools, even ignition protected devices without constant inspection are bigger threats....essentially, having a gas engine room is always a potential bomb so the only real advice is to not own one.

With as many sold and not admonished by the USCG, ABYC or any other safety organization on the planet...there must be some middle ground.

 

[firehoser75]

Again, true enough and good points

 

[Lepke]

If you're going to run anything that can spark in a gas engineroom, you need to run the bilge blowers.

When I was a kid, one of the boats I saw blowup had an owner that didn't like to spend the time running the blowers. He bragged about doing the sniff test. No smell, no blowers.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Outlets in an ER need to be GFCI and if in a gas ER it needs to be an ignition protected GFCI, everything electrical in a gas ER needs to be ignition protected. You can achieve this easily by placing the actual GFCI component outside the ER, by using a GFCI "upstream" of the one in the ER.

 

[Ruffryder]

Ignition protected GFCI? I don't believe there's such a thing.
No AC receptacle should be installed in your gas engine room
unless it is in a explosion/ignition proof Jbox with everything else.

 

[Bizsoft]

I bought my boat over a year ago and it has an GFCI outlet. I asked the surveyor about and for what it's worth he said it wasn't a problem.

Lord knows it has come in handy.

 

[Adagio43]

I haven't seen it in any of my recent boats - but is there any reason not to have an electrical outlet in the engine room? My boat has gas engines - so I have to be sure that the engine room is well vented before I go plugging stuff in - but seems like it would be handy to have an outlet down there...

When I read the first sentence of your post I thought yeah, I have one and then I read the second sentence about it being a gas engine boat and said, NO WAY!

I don’t have any particular experience, knowledge or skill in making this comment. Just My gut reaction, why take the chance.

 

[Ruffryder]

I bought my boat over a year ago and it has an GFCI outlet. I asked the surveyor about and for what it's worth he said it wasn't a problem.

Lord knows it has come in handy.

Your surveyor didn't know what he was talking about.
Anything non ignition protected in the gas bilge is a big No No.

 

[Comodave]

I bought my boat over a year ago and it has an GFCI outlet. I asked the surveyor about and for what it's worth he said it wasn't a problem.

Lord knows it has come in handy.

Is yours a diesel?

 

[Northern Spy]

As Steve said. Put the GFCI upstream (and outside) of the outlet in the ER. The outlet in the ER can be ignition protected.

No need for ignition protected GFCI.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Ignition protected GFCI? I don't believe there's such a thing.
No AC receptacle should be installed in your gas engine room
unless it is in a explosion/ignition proof Jbox with everything else.

There actually is such a thing as an ignition proof GFCI but it's unnecessary, as the actual GFCI can be outside the ER, while being protected.

A common receptacle need not be explosionproof, it makes no sparks just being there, or having something plugged into it. Plugging things into and out of it will make sparks, and there is no practical way to make that explosion proof. If you smell gas fumes in the ER, you shouldn't be doing anything except leaving the ER and ventilating it.

ABYC Standards do not prohibit outlets in gas ERs.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I bought my boat over a year ago and it has an GFCI outlet. I asked the surveyor about and for what it's worth he said it wasn't a problem.

Lord knows it has come in handy.

A common GFCI is not ignition protected, when it trips it makes sparks. The surveyor could not be more wrong, one wonders how a professional could come to such a grossly inaccurate conclusion. This should be corrected, not too difficult of there are any other outlets upstream, that could be converted to a GFCI, affording down stream protection.