My John Deere decided to take some time off

[O C Diver]

I’m late to the thread. I have the same engines and one would randomly die with less than 100 hours on it. Over a year of continual failures and troubleshooting by JD mechanics, the regional JD rep was informed and asked about a solution. After reviewing all of the steps taken by the mechanics, he approved the replacement of the ecu, wiring harness, and injector pump. Problem solved, whatever it was. The engine was not under warranty and I was not charged for the fix.

I'm sure I could replace those 3 components and have the same result. I'm also sure that it would cost me 7 to 10 boat units. The $100 bottle of enhancer is looking better and better.

Ted

 

[Jim Mason]

I think your first instincts were correct and your troubleshooting methods
well thought out.
Intermittent problems are the worst, and only time will tell you if the fix
is lasting.
Jim

 

[High Wire]

I hate when there’s no smoking gun. Good luck.

 

[twistedtree]

Another update:

Since post #59, I've put another 12 hours on the engine without another hiccup. Not willing to leave a working circuit alone, I disassembled it once again this morning.

I've been in the Houghton marina for a few days and was able to order some Stabilant 22A through Napa auto parts. As it has isopropyl alcohol in it, less expensive means of acquiring it with air shipping aren't available. $102 for 1/2 ounce seems a tad steep, unless it solves the problem.

View attachment 140319

The three applicator brushes included, probably justify the price.

View attachment 140320

For those interested in what this does as an enhancer and corrosion inhibiter, this is probably the best explanation I have found:

https://www.posthorn.com/Stab_2.html

So I took everything apart again and thoroughly cleaned everything again with straight contact cleaner again. After allowing all the parts to thoroughly dry, I coated the contact points with Stabilant 22A as I assembled each series of contacts. Then I allowed about an hour for some of the alcohol to evaporate and leave the Stabilant 22 as a residue.

The engine started right up. Allowed it to get up to minimum operating temperature and then proceeded to run it at varying RPMs for a few minutes each to make sure there weren't any issues at any RPM. After a half hour of this I shut it down and am prepared for tomorrow's 14 hour run to Isle Royale.

Ted

And where is the ECU mounted at this point? Is it back in it's factory location on the engine, or still slightly remotely mounted as you had tried experimentally?

 

[O C Diver]

And where is the ECU mounted at this point? Is it back in it's factory location on the engine, or still slightly remotely mounted as you had tried experimentally?

At present it's zip tied to the battery cable loom with the fan pointing at it, the harness, and the injector pump. It's best to take baby steps instead of giant strides. I'm crossing Lake Superior tomorrow and would prefer to gradually return to OEM in more confined waters. I've got about 2 hours in the waterway before I head out onto the lake. While the engine was running, I did move the wiring harness around, especially near the connectors, with out incident.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

I think your first instincts were correct and your troubleshooting methods
well thought out.
Intermittent problems are the worst, and only time will tell you if the fix
is lasting.
Jim

Like your new boat (in your avatar) Jim.

Ted

 

[Jim Mason]

Touche Ted.
��
Jim

 

[Jeff F]

... And for electronic engines, having the tools to talk to the ECU is very helpful as well.

That's never going to happen. You'll get the mandated data - DTCs, select operational data - but nothing more.

As I've said here before, remote engine management solves for that. Open up internet comms and let the service person tell you what's going on.

Word around my area is that there are no senior JD techs in the field. They're all working from home on their computers.

 

[Nick F]

That's never going to happen. You'll get the mandated data - DTCs, select operational data - but nothing more.

As I've said here before, remote engine management solves for that. Open up internet comms and let the service person tell you what's going on.

Word around my area is that there are no senior JD techs in the field. They're all working from home on their computers.

Don´t leave home without Starlink . . .

 

[DDW]

A
For those interested in what this does as an enhancer and corrosion inhibiter, this is probably the best explanation I have found:

https://www.posthorn.com/Stab_2.html

At least they have come up with a plausible explanation of action for Stabilant. Years ago they were promoting it as a "tunneling" compound, and made that claim in their patent.

 

[Mako]

How much significantly different a/o better is Stabilant versus dielectric grease?

 

[DDW]

I'd like to see an independent test verifying Stabilant's claims. I don't think it will hurt anything (except your bank account), just skeptical that it is any better than ordinary contact grease.

 

[O C Diver]

How much significantly different a/o better is Stabilant versus dielectric grease?

Dielectric grease is a corrosion blocker and lubricant. I've never seen any claim that it enhanced an electrical connection.

Ted

 

[mvweebles]

Dielectric grease is a corrosion blocker and lubricant. I've never seen any claim that it enhanced an electrical connection.



Ted

Im not so sure....not a recommendation but rather an anecdotal story.

Many years ago I was with my brother on a motorcycle trip through the Mississippi Delta and deep south. I was somewhere in rural Alabama when my alternator idiot light comes on. Sure enough, it stopped charging. No way was I making it home to Atlanta and the local Napa of course didn't carry an alternator for a 1975 BMW R90/6.

A friend suggested I smear some axle grease on the plug-in connections. Sure enough it worked.....for a while. Idiot light came back on just as I rolled into my driveway.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Dielectric grease is a corrosion blocker and lubricant. I've never seen any claim that it enhanced an electrical connection.

Ted

Clearly you are not in the Marketing Department

 

[O C Diver]

Clearly you are not in the Marketing Department

Probably not.

I lump these types of substances into 3 categories.

Contact cleaner - removes corrosion and maybe other substances such as oil, grease, or water.

Corrosion inhibiter - protects contacts from corrosion and foreign substances such as oil, grease, or water.

Contact enhancer - improves the conductivity in connections and lowers resistance of the contact point.

Obviously a product can have more than one of these attributes and one shouldn't assume that because it does one, it automatically does another.

As an example: I like and use Corrosion X as a contact cleaner and a corrosion inhibiter. I wouldn't assume an otherwise clean connection would be enhanced (reduced resistance) by applying it to the contact surface areas. Atleast it didn't reduce resistance with my current issue.

Ted

 

[sunchaser]

My favorite? WD40.

In dozens of instances I’ve used it and if unsuccessful, corrosion block etc type products worked no better.

I do know that Porsche has a magic elixir that runs up the shop parts side of the bill quite nicely - for them.

 

[Bmarler]

I like deoxit products. They have excellent cleaners and corrosion inhibitors that claim to improve conductivity. I haven’t measured connection resistance with it, but it does work fantastic for cleaning up bad connections.
In this instance though, I find it hard to believe that the connection is so finicky that it takes a special product to make it work. You should be able to take it apart, wipe it with a rag and reassemble it.

 

[O C Diver]

I like deoxit products. They have excellent cleaners and corrosion inhibitors that claim to improve conductivity. I haven’t measured connection resistance with it, but it does work fantastic for cleaning up bad connections.

Deoxit makes some very good products. When I dove rebreathers, some of the cell connections were gold plated. Deoxit ProGold worked extremely well to clean gold and silver plated contacts.

Ted

 

[slowgoesit]

As an aside. They also sell Stabilant 22, which is Stabilant 22A without the isopropyl alcohol. Mix the Stabilant 22 in the provided container with isopropyl alcohol available pretty much anywhere, and you have Stabilant 22A. And the Stabilant 22 can be sent through any mail service . . . and costs $38.00, makes 1 oz of 22A.

https://www.partsdrop.com/index.php...or-5ml-kit-005-010-005-makes-approx-30ml.html

Yep, I know, too late now! If your Stabilant does the trick, it's CHEAP at pretty much ANY price!

 

[O C Diver]

As an aside. They also sell Stabilant 22, which is Stabilant 22A without the isopropyl alcohol. Mix the Stabilant 22 in the provided container with isopropyl alcohol available pretty much anywhere, and you have Stabilant 22A. And the Stabilant 22 can be sent through any mail service . . . and costs $38.00, makes 1 oz of 22A.

https://www.partsdrop.com/index.php...or-5ml-kit-005-010-005-makes-approx-30ml.html

Yep, I know, too late now! If your Stabilant does the trick, it's CHEAP at pretty much ANY price!

Yes, I was aware of that and other options, but I don't believe any of the versions could be shipped by air.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

Ummm; JD connectors are not environmentally sealed?

I work on various cars, dozens of critical conns, all sealed, no grease.

 

[O C Diver]

Ummm; JD connectors are not environmentally sealed?

I work on various cars, dozens of critical conns, all sealed, no grease.

Yes, they're sealed. The injector pump circuit has enough amps to do some carbonizing on the contacts. I would also imagine that if you heat a sealed connector to 200 degrees F, some gas may escape and when it cools some vacuum may occur. The engine is 10+ years old, so sooner or later things start to leak.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

Yes, they're sealed. The injector pump circuit has enough amps to do some carbonizing on the contacts. I would also imagine that if you heat a sealed connector to 200 degrees F, some gas may escape and when it cools some vacuum may occur. The engine is 10+ years old, so sooner or later things start to leak.



Ted

Thats a significant design issue. I would be browsing the weather-pack listings for more capable hardware. Even this step assumes the wire size is adequate.

 

[O C Diver]

Thats a significant design issue. I would be browsing the weather-pack listings for more capable hardware. Even this step assumes the wire size is adequate.

Don't think you're going to change the connector going to the ECM. With luck the Stabilant will do its job and that will be that.

14 hours today without a hiccup.

Ted

 

[catalinajack]

Yes, they're sealed. The injector pump circuit has enough amps to do some carbonizing on the contacts. I would also imagine that if you heat a sealed connector to 200 degrees F, some gas may escape and when it cools some vacuum may occur. The engine is 10+ years old, so sooner or later things start to leak.



Ted

I have followed this thread with great interest. What I don't get is why diesel engines, or gas engines for that matter, do not seem to have ECU/harness problems in pick-up trucks. Certainly, the underhood temp is at least 200 degrees and the operating environment is clearly more harsh than on any boat. Boat engines operate in a relatively dry environment while pickups operate in every imaginable difficult environment, from cold to hot, from dry to very humid, yet the electrical systems are highly reliable. And forget vibration. Pickup trucks bounce on bad roads frequently, far more vibration and sharp shocks, every day, than on any boat. So, guys, I just don't get it. I do not believe that this problem is in a connector unless the pins in a connector are not seated properly. So, what we have here, I think, is a bad piece of harness or a bad ECU. But, how to figure out which, or if, a piece of harness is bad? Perhaps start by removing the connectors at each end and check continuity on each pin. The ECU? Remove and ask the manufacturer to test it?

Much discussion here on how heat may be affecting the ECU. Methinks this is not the problem. Again, I think to vehicles. Two years ago, I travelled Interstate 80 in Washington in 115-degree heat in a 1999 vehicle (210,000 miles) with no problems. It was so hot that the sunroof on the truck exploded. Think how hot it must have been underneath the hood.

Just some random thoughts from a non-expert.

 

[O C Diver]

I have followed this thread with great interest. What I don't get is why diesel engines, or gas engines for that matter, do not seem to have ECU/harness problems in pick-up trucks. Certainly, the underhood temp is at least 200 degrees and the operating environment is clearly more harsh than on any boat. Boat engines operate in a relatively dry environment while pickups operate in every imaginable difficult environment, from cold to hot, from dry to very humid, yet the electrical systems are highly reliable. And forget vibration. Pickup trucks bounce on bad roads frequently, far more vibration and sharp shocks, every day, than on any boat. So, guys, I just don't get it. I do not believe that this problem is in a connector unless the pins in a connector are not seated properly. So, what we have here, I think, is a bad piece of harness or a bad ECU. But, how to figure out which, or if, a piece of harness is bad? Perhaps start by removing the connectors at each end and check continuity on each pin. The ECU? Remove and ask the manufacturer to test it?

Much discussion here on how heat may be affecting the ECU. Methinks this is not the problem. Again, I think to vehicles. Two years ago, I travelled Interstate 80 in Washington in 115-degree heat in a 1999 vehicle (210,000 miles) with no problems. It was so hot that the sunroof on the truck exploded. Think how hot it must have been underneath the hood.

Just some random thoughts from a non-expert.

ECUs do go bad in pickup trucks and cars. It occurs often enough that it's not news, so you don't read about it. The ECU went bad in my Dodge pickup with the Cummins engine. The part that went bad was the electronic switch that turns the electronic fuel pump on. Failures occur often enough that there are aftermarket companies who build new ECUs and repair them. The volume of failures has generated the aftermarket companies and kept the price somewhat competitive.

Most vehicles have airflow through the engine compartment. You may open the hood and think it’s quite hot from heat radiating off the engine (it may be while sitting in traffic), but going 20 miles an hour down the road probably pushes 1,000 CFM through the engine compartment. Obviously there is limited flow through our engine rooms and certainly not a fan directing air towards engine components.

One of the differences between my truck and my boat is the the ECU on my truck is mounted on the firewall, where the boat's is mounted on the engine. There's an order of magnitude difference in the vibration alone.

The last comparative point I would offer is humidity (moisture) and salt environment corrosion. Your boat sitting in the water with the engine unused for weeks or months will have a much greater moisture content in the engine room than your car is likely to average. Additionally, most people run the car more frequently (drying everything out) than there boat. Finally, if boating in a salt or brackish water, the moisture you're getting in your engine room is going to be more corrosive.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

One small data point. Once long ago, I was on a team to develop a "HOT test" for Ford's engine controller. It was a robot that pulled ECU from a conveyor that cured the PCB conformal coating. The robot inserted the ECU into a smallish box, heated to 100 deg C, for a full functional test. This was done to 100% of all ECU.
I think there were 4 in this test cell at a time. Anyway, the big manufacturers go thru a lot of both design reliability and factory defect testing. If you do a search for 100 deg C rated semi's, you may not find many in the general market. I have no idea of JD volume of ECU, but when you get into millions, like car companies, that pays for a lot of up front design work.

 

[catalinajack]

ECUs do go bad in pickup trucks and cars. It occurs often enough that it's not news, so you don't read about it. The ECU went bad in my Dodge pickup with the Cummins engine. The part that went bad was the electronic switch that turns the electronic fuel pump on. Failures occur often enough that there are aftermarket companies who build new ECUs and repair them. The volume of failures has generated the aftermarket companies and kept the price somewhat competitive.



Most vehicles have airflow through the engine compartment. You may open the hood and think it’s quite hot from heat radiating off the engine (it may be while sitting in traffic), but going 20 miles an hour down the road probably pushes 1,000 CFM through the engine compartment. Obviously there is limited flow through our engine rooms and certainly not a fan directing air towards engine components.



One of the differences between my truck and my boat is the the ECU on my truck is mounted on the firewall, where the boat's is mounted on the engine. There's an order of magnitude difference in the vibration alone.



The last comparative point I would offer is humidity (moisture) and salt environment corrosion. Your boat sitting in the water with the engine unused for weeks or months will have a much greater moisture content in the engine room than your car is likely to average. Additionally, most people run the car more frequently (drying everything out) than there boat. Finally, if boating in a salt or brackish water, the moisture you're getting in your engine room is going to be more corrosive.



Ted

Yes, Ted, all valid points. But, the ECU on my Chevy Duramax is mounted on the engine. And, when we did the Loop, the truck sat for over a year and started right up. Interesting that you had an ECU go bad. No doubt it happens to some. I think I did mention that the OPs problem might be a bad ECU. I am still of the opinion that connections are not the problem. It's in the harness or the ECU. As far as a humid environment on a boat, I might note that some folks, think the Southeast US, live in an environment of constant high humidity. In an case, weatherpack connectors are pretty much, well, weathertight. I rather doubt humidity gets to the connections. I could be wrong, of course.

 

[dannc]

My 22 year old truck has had an intermittent problem for years.

The windows, door locks and radio would not work SOMETIMES after staring up the engine. It SEEMED to happen on hot days. After a few minutes, everything would work...

A few years ago, the dashboard gauges would go to the right most stop, then back to the left most top, and either go back to work, or just not work at all. After a few minutes, the gauges would do their dance and start to work. Or Not.

The standard fix to this is to replace a chip in the dashboard. This single chip controls the gauges, door locks, radio, and window buttons. The chip was replaced, the radio, door lock and windows works but the gauges will still do their dance and fail but not as often. Replaced the chip again. There has been improvement but the gauge dance will still happen.

To change the chip, the dashboard has to be sent to a company, lucky for me, it is sorta local, but I don't know if they are putting in a new chip...

To add to the variability, the wind shield had been replaced but not sealed correctly, so there was a small leak under the dash. Was that the problem? Had the leak fixed but still have the gauge dance.

Took the truck to the Ford dealer were it sat for a couple of weeks and they refused to look at the problem even though it is a well known issue in this truck model and year. To say I won't buy a vehicle from the dealer is an understatement....

The symptoms all point back to the chip but could it be a harness issue?

At some point, I will take the truck back to our mechanic, and maybe have the dashboard sent to another company that replaces the chip, or ask what a new dashboard would cost. I am sure the later will be too expensive to do but I will ask.

These intermittent problems are a right PITA.

Later,
Dan