Trawler brands with semi-bluewater seaworthiness...

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Mambo42 said:
.....Although it hurts me to say it, but perhaps a sailing vessel is better for the route you have in mind. Sailing vessels are more capable of handling very rough weather. They are not as comfortable as a trawler, but if you have this route in mind I would find the boat that is most capable of handling nature and not go with something that is more comfortable.
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I had the same thought when I read the OPs budget of $150K-$200K. OP has a nice sailboat that is setup for long term travel. Lusting over a Nordhavn in that budget is wishful but not realistic. Heck, some buyers of used Nordhavn's pay that much in immediate upgrades and refresh let alone initial purchase.

Finding a decent conditioned boat to house 3 kids and 2 adults working full-time in that budget is a tall order. OP might might find a deal on a converted commercial vessel at a low price (fish, research, military, etc.). Once boats get a bit bigger - say, into the upper 60's on up, the market shrinks considerably because of cost to own so there are some deals out there. But resale will be difficult - could take years even at steep price reduction.

Best success in your dreams!

Peter
 
When in the eastern Caribbean the majority of the time you stay west of the island chain so in the lee of the islands. Between certain islands depending upon weather a race may develop which is dangerous for boats sail or power. It’s crossing between islands that you may see choppy seas. But distances are short and it’s easy to pick your days as most are good. Most times if skipping some islands we didn’t hug the islands but rather did a straight shot to the next island we wanted. Surprisingly being some distance off the chain and in the Caribbean Sea proper often made for easier sailing. No downdrafts or local effects from the islands. That was true going up or down the chain. Majority of sailing was a solent and single reefed main so was moderate conditions. Power seen was Hatt LRCs, steel and Nordies with an occasional big Selene. Few KKs and those usually the 52. Sail predominants and until you go to large boats power is rare.
Going by northern Brazil is very very difficult. Especially going south. You are both against current and prevailing winds. There’s few places to hide from weather and virtually no yacht services. Even on serious blue water sail few attempt that passage. In power I’d want a ship not a boat or at least 80-100’ of boat. Read a “gentleman’s “ Aimed at small sail but appropriate for moderate sized power as well. Most go south west of the islands and north for long hauls east to make use of the trades. There’s an elbow in the chain. For power would think the leewards would be easier than the windwards. I personally much preferred the windwards as it was significantly less Miami Beach commercialized and parts were still undeveloped. If I was comtemplatimg your program looking at used boats I’d be on a northern marine, nordhavn, Kanter Al, LRC or Dutch steel. I saw worse weather in New England than in a decade of eastern Caribbean cruising. It is a sailing paradise and conditions are modest. But I’d be on a Bluewater full displacement boat. I did thousands of miles there but other than the passages to/from home nearly all of it was in short daysails. Speed isn’t important enough to want a SD hull. Comfort is as is payload and self reliance. Comfort isn’t open space. Open spaces are dangerous on a blue water boat.
BTW $250k ain’t going to do it. Be difficult even in used sail with that budget. Even on sail you haven’t consider cost of ownership and daily living expenses. Get another dream or a bigger cruising kitty. Sorry:-(
 
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Your other concern with a family and likely not having the resources to self insure is insurance. Given MMCC change expect the zone to expand and the hurricane season to get longer. When we were cruising for most vendors is was above 40N and below 10N. We got around it by either returning to New England or hanging out in the southern bays of Grenada. Expect Granada to be off the the list and Trinidad be the southern limit. Wouldn’t be surprised if 41 or 42n became the northern. There’s a high risk you will either lose family or the boat being in the zone during hurricane season. It’s 1500-2000nm from most parts of the Caribbean to be safely out of the zone going north. You can avoid doing it as a single shot (we did it that way) by island hopping. But island hopping is very time consuming so we never did it that way. That’s why sail is preferred for small boats and the Salty Dawg and Caribbean 1500 are always fully booked.
 
Good options were presented. What @Mambo42 said and what I was thinking after reading post 1 bring up a question.
With your experience with blue water behind you, why would you want to switch boat types to travel where a sailboat is at home?

Many of us here were (fair weather) sailors who came to the trawler world for the comforts of a trawler, but few of us expect to travel in blue water. So the change was for the creature comforts alone.

We chartered a cat in BVI, it had sails, never used. Very comfortable inside with four staterooms, above waterline salon and a great ride in seas our trawler would be bounced around in. I have read every Trawler offshore adventure, kudos to those that go for it, but why I keep asking, do it in boats best for coastal cruising.

@Hippocampus has many tales to tell of blue water sailing and now taking it easy in a trawler that has blue water capability, (just in case).
 
DavidM said:
The Hatteras 58LRC is about the only blue water trawler that comes close to meeting your requirements and price limit. Here is one in BC that is listed for US$ 254k:

David
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While I certainly agree that the Hatt 58 LRC is a good entrant for the OP give his use and budget, I personally think the "LRC" monikers Hatt ascribed the 48 and 58 are a bit decrptive. These predate the CE Rating system and doubt they'd garner any better than a Class B rating, and like the Nordic Tug 37, might need some tweaking to even achieve that.

Don't get me wrong, if I owned one in good shape and had a hankering to cross the Atlantic, I would. But I'd be ultra cautious to plan for favorable season, much more so then with a Nordhavn for example.

Honestly, I view the KK 42 about the same. Solid boat, but no one knew the various design parameters needed to keep angry water on the outside. Best is to just appease the gods and stay away from angry water by choosing the favorable seasons and planning accordingly. BTW - I'd definitely toss the Willard 40 in the same bucket too.

The main benefit the Hatt 58 LRC has going for it is size. Being able to comfortably bridge 4-foot chop is a nice thing.

Y'all know I'm big on going with the boat you have, buf make no mistake. Some boats take a bit more coddling than others. The Hatt 58 LRC is a cool boat, but I would not call it a blue water boat to any extent further than a 60-ish foot quality motor yacht is a blue water boat.

Just my opinion. Great boat. But has limits that belie the LRC tag

Peter
 
Peter,
Is there a power pleasure craft that is built for blue water. It seems many just adapt with any. Most boats can handle more than the operator after all and with planning can go anywhere.
 
I think finding a boat with your specs for $150-$200k will be a challenge. You will be looking at a pretty old boat, and should expect to do a bunch of work on it.

I would add Choy Lee to your list. I have no direct experience with them, but know of a few that have done some lenghty cruising along the lines of what you plan.
 
I think everybody else has pretty well disabused you of the notion of a hard chined, semi-displacement production yacht like a Grand Banks. I never took my GB42 (admittedly smaller than you want) on any longer than a 24-hour offshore run and always watched the weather. It was a snappy roller in even small beam seas offshore, and it was quite frankly not designed for weather better handled by sailboats. I know, I know, people will tell of the tale of an airline pilot who took his GB to Hawaii from the west coast following contrails; and I know of a GB42 which cruised into the leewards and farther south; but those are more or less one-offs, and you hear lots more about boats like Nordhavens making these sorts of voyages. The smallest vessel I have run trans-Pacific was a Navy 205-foot ocean-going, fleet tug I commanded in the 1970s; so, there's that to consider in evaluating my opinion. Learn to weld and get a used steel-hulled fishing boat. :)
 
SteveK said:
Peter,
Is there a power pleasure craft that is built for blue water. It seems many just adapt with any. Most boats can handle more than the operator after all and with planning can go anywhere.
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Totally agree that boats are sturdier than their owners. But when I hear "Bluewater," my mind goes to passages that extend past a reasonably confident weather forecast meaning you leave yourself exposed to unexpected weather. How long is that? 72-hours or more. 500 nm passage without a bailout option.

There simply are not that many <50' boats that will make through sustained Force 8+ for more than a relatively short period of time. I'm not saying they'll sink, but they will be fundamentally altered by the experience. Just because a boat doesn't sink doesn't make the passage a success - it has to maintain propulsion and arrive under its own power. Ideally, there should be no broken ribs amongst the crew.

I'm not saying decent motor yachts can't make long passages. You just have to be much more careful. And some treks are simply not wise. A sister ship to my Willard 36 went from California to Hawaii, and then returned via the PNW. The passage to Hawaii was done during October, the calmest possible period and they hit no adverse weather (return trip has been lost to time). All that proves is it's possible to get really good weather and that the Willard 36 has enough fuel. It doesn't prove it's a passage worthy boat.

Peter.
 
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twistedtree said:
I think finding a boat with your specs for $150-$200k will be a challenge. You will be looking at a pretty old boat, and should expect to do a bunch of work on it.

I would add Choy Lee to your list. I have no direct experience with them, but know of a few that have done some lenghty cruising along the lines of what you plan.
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Good suggestion - similar in concept to the Hatt 58 LRC. Many of them have had a cockpit extension added. A friend has a Cheoy Lee 60-something (he added a cockpit extension). He took it to the South Pacific and ended up selling it on Australia. His partner was not fond of cruising.

Peter
 
As an owner of a Hatteras 48LRC I would consider anyone planning to take it across an ocean reckless at best. I wouldn't hesitate to cruise coastal out to maybe 200 miles from a good harbor or protected anchorage with good weather planning. That would keep you less than 3 days from safety. But that could still be a rough ride for you or the family. Just completed San Diego to San Francisco and probably 50% of the time was not pleasant even after we waited for improved sea conditions.
Great boat for the right mission.
 
All good comments here. The tough part of this consideration is the word "bluewater." If the OP drops that requirement, and hugs coastlines and watches weather windows and absolutely does NOT live to a schedule, then any number of semi-displacement Taiwan trawlers of moderate displacement, small heavy duty engines and some upgrades could fit the bill.
 
Mako makes an excellent point. This leads to the question -How do you define blue water?
Some would say outside SAR helicopter range. For most oceans that means around 200nm from land. After that you fix it or go swimming.
Some say 5 days away from nearest landfall. Thinking for 3 days weather is decently predicted. For 5 days more often than not fairly reliable. But over 5 days from nearest landfall still pretty much a crapshoot.
Some say (including the Ocean Cruising club in large measure) it’s a transit off any continental shelf of at least 2000nm. Makes sense as the water is definitely blue and the waves behave differently once off any continental shelf.
I find much boat manufacturers promo doesn’t meet any of the above definitions. I find the EU system to be very misleading as it only pertains to the vessel at initial launch. Some modern offerings wear poorly. After one or two strenuous passages they are no longer “A” in my humble opinion.
Still if the OP gives up on Brazil, allows enough time to only island hop and stays out of the zone during hurricane season I think he is not going to do any “blue water “ by any of the above definitions.
As an aside I like the OCC definition. It implies you are self sufficient and need no outside help. It implies you can endure weather and have planned for survival conditions. It implies you have sufficient skilled crew to persist without crippling fatigue or if injury/sickness occurs. Regardless of whether I was crew or captain the boat was purpose built for blue water. Take a beating and keep on ticking. Then tens and tens of thousands of dollars were spent for the various needs required for blue water. That means safety equipment, communications, outfitting crew, modifications and additions to achieve a bulletproof passage. The boat is only one parameter. It’s a huge effort in addition to prep for passage making and keep it maintained for that purpose.
Think on these threads except for those who have done passages the needs to do it safely are routinely underestimated.
Can it be done under power. Yes it can. Read the appendix in Beebe. Lots of folks have done it everything from home built one offs to monster series production creations. It’s been done before our current access to better weather predictions. It’s been done in some very small boats. There is no reason a recreational powerboat cannot be designed for blue water and do any passage a sailboat can do.
 
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Going to start another thread as this business of blue water keeps coming up. There’s a fair number of experienced blue water people here. Think it would be helpful,for them to share that experience.
 
When it comes to this forum I define Bluewater as Ocean crossing. While my boat is capable to roam from Cabo to Steward, I would not define it as Bluewater capable.

With the right captain my boat could do the Caribbean but I wouldn’t advise an inexperienced captain that it is semi-Bluewater.
 
Your budget is tight for a good condition DeFever. Check with broker Curtis Stokes.
 
Comodave said:
Here are the fuel consumption numbers on the Hatteras 58 LRC we looked at.
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That's not too bad. It seems to be around 4-6gph on the larger vessels. I don't find many in my price rand down at the 2-3gph at cruise speed.
 
Mambo42 said:
Your itinerary is pretty ambitious and especially going against the prevailing winds in the Caribbean is going to be tough. You can hug the coast, but that does not mean those countries are safe hiding places. And with safe I mean 'crime free', nothing to do with the sea state or the winds.
Going north to south along the Caribbean islands can be done with a trawler, but it will be a beam sea all the time in between the islands and the sea will be pretty rough. Perhaps for those circumstances having the ability to go a bit faster might be good, otherwise you will be in that sea for many hours, not exactly fun. You would need stabilizers if you want to do it at a slower speed.
I have a Defever 49, have been in pretty rough seas, but definitely would not take her into weather where the waves break from the side or over the bow. I have sliding doors in the pilot house, they would be gone in an instance and as others stated, the air intakes for the engine room are also uncovered. If a wave would break from the side the ER would be flooded.
Good part of the Caribbean is that the weather is very predictable (outside hurricane season), always around 20 - 25 kts wind from direction 80 - 120. If the boat is slow I would absolutely forget going in hurricane season, you won't be able to get out of the way if you are e.g. near St Maarten and a hurricane is forecasted to arrive in 3 days. You definitely would not want to try to ride out a hurricane, it is just too dangerous.

Although it hurts me to say it, but perhaps a sailing vessel is better for the route you have in mind. Sailing vessels are more capable of handling very rough weather. They are not as comfortable as a trawler, but if you have this route in mind I would find the boat that is most capable of handling nature and not go with something that is more comfortable.
Or............I would change the itinerary and not be that ambitious. A boat, capable of handling all that you are going to encounter, is going to cost much more than your budget allows at this time.
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So you think that your Defever 49 should not do something like this because you could have a lot of beam side swell coming off the Atlantic? We would not be there cruising around during hurricane season, I have young kids that I don't need in trouble. I can't see my wife on a sailing vessel and I don't think I want to do the sailing. I would prefer to get a more sturdy trawler and wait for the nice weather to cruise and then chill in the bays when it's not as nice.
 
tiltrider1 said:
When it comes to this forum I define Bluewater as Ocean crossing. While my boat is capable to roam from Cabo to Steward, I would not define it as Bluewater capable.

With the right captain my boat could do the Caribbean but I wouldn’t advise an inexperienced captain that it is semi-Bluewater.
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You have a nice boat, I have heard they are pretty sturdy. Do you have stabilisers on your boat?
 
OP, check the specs on the vessels you’re considering. If you’re looking in the 47 to 49 foot range then try to find something with about 50,000 lb displacement. It’s just a good indicator of a vessel NOT designed for semi-displacement speeds. You’ll have lower hp, more heavy duty engines, better fuel capacity, gentler inherent motion, better form stability, etc.
 
Although no longer being built, I highly recommend a DeFever, any size and any age, if well-maintained! They were always designed as an "offshore cruiser" and can handle more seas than the crew. They are very livable, comfortably arranged, have good storage, usually stand-up engine rooms, and are heavy, solidly-built boats. Our family has had three DeFevers (38', 50', 52') over 50 years, and a 42' Grand Banks, cruising from Alaska to the Caribbean to Chesapeake, and extensively in the PacNW and Sea of Cortez. I would always choose to cruise in our DeFever over the Grand Banks; it's a smoother ride and much more livable.
 
SeaStarDF50 said:
Although no longer being built, I highly recommend a DeFever, any size and any age, if well-maintained! They were always designed as an "offshore cruiser" and can handle more seas than the crew. They are very livable, comfortably arranged, have good storage, usually stand-up engine rooms, and are heavy, solidly-built boats. Our family has had three DeFevers (38', 50', 52') over 50 years, and a 42' Grand Banks, cruising from Alaska to the Caribbean to Chesapeake, and extensively in the PacNW and Sea of Cortez. I would always choose to cruise in our DeFever over the Grand Banks; it's a smoother ride and much more livable.
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If I’m not mistaken, Defever made both full and semi-displacement hulls.
 
I have a Selene 57. It's like a stretched Selene 53. Most 53's (Selene's most popular model) are single engine (with or without a wing engine), stabilized, bow and stern thrusters, have 3 staterooms, 2 heads, raised pilot house and a huge flybridge and boat deck. And they look awesome (my opinion). The layout is very good as well with minimal stairs to climb.

Selenes have a long range and have crossed oceans. They are built very sturdy and are normally a lower cost than Nordhavns and KKs.

I've been cruising from Maine to Bahamas. When I'm in 8 foot short period waves, or in a squall with lightening and high winds all around, I'm glad to be in a sturdy boat.
 
mvweebles said:
Great post - welcome to TF.

There are a LOT of motoryachts doing signifiant coastal passages. At some point, you'll bump into my travelogue posts about going from Ensenada MX south - currently near Guatemala and will resume this fall to Panama before eventually headed up to Florida. One boat that comes to mind that I met along the way is a family of 5 (three boys 8-14) on a Hatteras 58 LRC. They started up in your neck of the woods in BC and I last saw them in Chiapas where Weebles is currently hauled. They carried a jetski along with their dinghy. Was pretty awkward to watch them launch it from the boat deck.

At 65-feet, you have a lot of options that are very seaworthy (size matters). I think you have keyed-in on one important design aspect - you mention a swim-step but I'll expand that to some sort of cockpit area. Really makes a difference in getting on/off the boat. I recall the wife on the above mentioned Hatt 58 come back from town on a provisioning run. She had boxes and boxes of stuff - tons of fruit juice and sodas; dozens of eggs. I helped her schlep much of it down the dock - I could tell it had been a really, really long day for her. Getting everything hoisted aboard was an effort - I can only imagine the work that followed to get everything stowed.

I'll add that having an engine room that you can maneuver in is pretty dang important for longer passages. If you have to tear-up hatches in the saloon, well, what will you do with the rest of the family?

A couple examples of Cockpit Motoryachts (the Defever 44+5 is more of a trawler with a great engine room, but only two staterooms).


Good luck with whatever direction you take - great way to raise a family.

Peter
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We have a nice 58 Foot Hatteras LRC in Palm Coast Florida that fits the job.
If you would like to visit and come aboard send us an email. BowtomyStern@gmail.com
 
I believe you could add Cheoy Lee 55-65s on your list. Very capable vessels for your plans. Which sound awesome, by the way!
 
ddickson said:
Hello all,

We are a family of 5 and looking to pick up a trawler in the next year. I have some sailing experience in the Caribbean, around Vancouver Island, and lived aboard a tall ship that went down to the Galapagos islands and then on to Norway. But I don't want to bring my family onto a sailboat.

So we are looking for a trawler!! We like some space, so a 50-65ft vessel is what we have been looking for. I am quite concerned about the seaworthiness of trawlers. I can see that the Nordhavn is a serious boat that could probably go straight across the Atlantic but I don't have the money for one of those today, a couple of pennies short...

We don't want to cross the Atlantic, we want to go down the East Coast into the Caribbean and then possibly down to Brazil and back up again. So it is not exactly blue water cruising but there will be some longer passes that we could attempt. We will spend most of our time diving and snorkelling in the Caribbean islands.

I have been looking at Hatteras, Defever, Grand Banks, Ocean Alexanders, and Kadey-Krogens...It seems like the OA and the KKs are maybe best suited for longer passages but they don't always have much living space or nicely laid out living areas. My kids like to move around so some deck space would be nice and a bit of a swim deck is a 100% must. I was also hoping to be able to get a tender and a jet ski onboard while doing passages (maybe it's a bit of a dream to have both). We need at least 3 cabins as well since we have three kids.

How well suited are these brands for anything other than coastal calmish water cruising? We would probably get something with stabilizers but I don't want to put my family into any super sketchy situations on a boat that's not suited for the Caribbean.

Please, I am not looking for lessons on if I am capable of doing it, if my kids are capable of doing it or if we have any idea what it's like living on a boat...I am just looking for a good conversation on the seaworthiness of these trawler brands and if you have suggestions on other models I should be looking at.

Thank you for reading my post and for all the amazing content on this forum.
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I think you need to get out on a trawler or two.
But it sounds like with your lack of experience nobody will charter a 60 ft boat to you.
This lack of experience may also be a problem when it comes to getting insurance for a big adventure as you have planned.
Walk before you run.
 
ddickson said:
Yes, I have been thinking of the fuel tank sizes. I don't want to be running to the fuel station all the time. And I have heard that you can order fuel to be delivered at certain places if you order larger quantities. Could save a bit I would assume.

The Delta and Northern Marine look slightly out of my price range, especially the Northern Marine. I'll keep an eye out though.
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The 58 Hatteras LRc has 4 center lined fuel tanks is carried 2450 gallons of diesel and with Detroit Diesels 471 naturals (no turbos, or computers) .
It burns 2-3 gallons an hour at 1300-1500 rpm. 7-9 knots.
 
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