Time for Lithium House

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dhays said:
That 300Ah I think you are referring so is the soon-to-be-released?
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They have had them, then not, so in and out of stock. It is a relatively new product for them, I think seeing a lot of demand.
 
One thing to consider, I have had drop in lifepo4 with and without bluetooth. IMO bluetooth is a must.
****edit** As a matter of fact bluetooth and an on/off switch somewhere.
The reason for that is these batteries have a ton of electronics inside. They also have many parameters for shut down and protection modes and they also occasionally malfunction. Troubleshooting is SOO much easier with bluetooth. You can see if charge and discharge mosfets are on or off, if there are any codes or warnings etc and sometimes cycling power resolves things. And lastly, with no on/off button the basic batteries can "go to sleep" and must be woken up by either applying a charge or a load. And sometimes that may not work due to various conditions.
 
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I wish my batteries talked to each other. Now ending the 3rd season with them, each of the BMSs is going a good job. This is where a good BMS also comes in. What I mean is, that all 4 batteries when I Bluetooth into them are 1 to 2% of SOC of each other.
 
Barking Sands said:
One thing to consider, I have had drop in lifepo4 with and without bluetooth. IMO bluetooth is a must.
****edit** As a matter of fact bluetooth and an on/off switch somewhere.
The reason for that is these batteries have a tone of electronics inside. They also have many parameters for shut down and protection modes and they also occasionally malfunction. Troubleshooting is SOO much easier with bluetooth. You can see if charge and discharge mosfets are on or off, if there are any codes or warnings etc and sometimes cycling power resolves things. And lastly, with no on/off button the basic batteries can "go to sleep" and must be woken up by either applying a charge or a load. And sometimes that may not work due to various conditions.
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This really depends on the software and hardware of the BMS. So this is important in the buying process. I would try to get a battery with the best BMS that I could. Which is not a easy task in researching.
 
Barking Sands said:
Panbo just came out with an article on them today and these batteries look great. Cost is good too,
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I just happened to see that today. It is a solid review. However, I don't know who the author is. He may be the smartest guy in the industry, but it isn't my industry so I'm clueless.
 
Another consideration for me is the prospective longevity of the company. A 10 year warrantee is useless unless the company issuing it is still in business 10 years on. For example, who is going to make good on your bad KiloVault battery? Unfortunately it is difficult to judge, as few of these companies have been in business even 5 years and quite a few have exited in that time. SunFun was started in 2021 (Epoch also), 3 years old and offering 10 year warrantees. They are becoming cheap enough that you may not need to depend on the warrantee, but if periodic replacement is contemplated, then the installation should be generic, rather than specific to a brand.

This is also true of the "serviceability" claimed for some brands. The cells will probably be available 6 or 8 years on, the BMS almost certainly not.

For those technically capable, those are good arguments for rolling your own.
 
DDW said:
Another consideration for me is the prospective longevity of the company. A 10 year warrantee is useless unless the company issuing it is still in business 10 years on. For example, who is going to make good on your bad KiloVault battery? Unfortunately it is difficult to judge, as few of these companies have been in business even 5 years and quite a few have exited in that time. SunFun was started in 2021 (Epoch also), 3 years old and offering 10 year warrantees. They are becoming cheap enough that you may not need to depend on the warrantee, but if periodic replacement is contemplated, then the installation should be generic, rather than specific to a brand.

This is also true of the "serviceability" claimed for some brands. The cells will probably be available 6 or 8 years on, the BMS almost certainly not.

For those technically capable, those are good arguments for rolling your own.
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Its hard to look at a company and say it will be here in 5 or 10 years. That part I will never get into, since I will not fully understand it. I would focus on reviews, specs and what ever I can get my hands on.

Panbo and Marine How To did a review on KiloVault. Both give that battery high reviews and I liked the specs. I even talked tech people. All was good and 2 years later, gone........... Who knew?

If I get 3 more years out of them. I will be happy. As DDW said " They are becoming cheap enough that you may not need to depend on the warrantee,"

Keep in mind, under warranty some what you to pay for shipping. But buy new, shipping could be free. A minor plus, but true. All part of the game............
 
dhays said:
I just happened to see that today. It is a solid review. However, I don't know who the author is. He may be the smartest guy in the industry, but it isn't my industry so I'm clueless.
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panbo.com

About Panbo

All About Panbo Contacts Advertising History Ben E bio Ben S bio Where we are Hi, we are Ben Ellison and Ben Stein, Senior Editor and...
panbo.com

-Chris
 
Iggy said:
Its hard to look at a company and say it will be here in 5 or 10 years. That part I will never get into, since I will not fully understand it. I would focus on reviews, specs and what ever I can get my hands on.

Panbo and Marine How To did a review on KiloVault. Both give that battery high reviews and I liked the specs. I even talked tech people. All was good and 2 years later, gone........... Who knew?

If I get 3 more years out of them. I will be happy. As DDW said " They are becoming cheap enough that you may not need to depend on the warrantee,"

Keep in mind, under warranty some what you to pay for shipping. But buy new, shipping could be free. A minor plus, but true. All part of the game............
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Good points and I tend to view warranty the same. Don't get me wrong, if you receive a faulty battery they should warranty it out ASAP. But if my current lithium batts crap the bed in 3 or 4 years...I am almost guaranteed to look into a different direction since I am pretty certain in 3 or 4 years there will be some incredible options for less money. The cost of shipping a 100lb lithium product would probably go a long way towards something new and better.

As for Epoch, they are the other half of the 18650 battery store, which has been in business for quite some time as a supplier of cells. And they partnered with Roypow on their flagship brands such as the 460 Marine. Roypow is a global company that predominately supplies to governments and hospitals and industrial applications as well as Golf Carts. You can tell the difference in the engineering of the entire 460ah battery from the various teardowns. It is a complete engineering effort from the case to the BMS to plugs, all integrated in design. Where as many other batt suppliers purchase large quantities of generic cases, JBD or JK BMS's, and even cells, then hand assemble with bits of foam and glue. . Roypow has been in business for some time. But of course that's not a guarantee either but they aren't exactly a newcomer.
 
The 18650 battery store goes back to 2018, so 6 years. But I agree that 5 or 6 years on, you probably are better off buying then available tech, than replacing with now available tech. This is the thing that keeps me from investing in say a full on Victron lithium solution, you are then tied into those components, which is a snapshot in time of a very rapidly evolving market. So called "drops ins" are self contained for tech, and a replacement updates everything.

A roll your own is like the old component stereos, when the speakers or receiver go bad or get outdated, just replace that piece.
 
I don't trust the "drop ins". But thats me...

The prices are general lower than than the brand names and don't come with some things like Bluetooth, heater, comm ports and more.
 

Sun Fun Kits Ready To Use Assembled Batteries - for Rvs, Golf Carts, Solar Storage, Made IN USA! Lithium Cells 12v 13.6v - Sunfunkits.com

Sun Fun Kits Ready To Use Assembled Batteries - for Rvs, Golf Carts, Solar Storage, Made IN USA! Lithium Cells 12v 13.6v - Sunfunkits.com
www.sunfunkits.com

I installed 4 of their 275ah SE batteries this past spring and have been very happy with the performance, form factor and continued support.

Free shipping, weight, and functioning victron comms is where they beat epoch.
 
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BLUE STEEL said:

Sun Fun Kits Ready To Use Assembled Batteries - for Rvs, Golf Carts, Solar Storage, Made IN USA! Lithium Cells 12v 13.6v - Sunfunkits.com

Sun Fun Kits Ready To Use Assembled Batteries - for Rvs, Golf Carts, Solar Storage, Made IN USA! Lithium Cells 12v 13.6v - Sunfunkits.com
www.sunfunkits.com

I installed 4 of their 275ah SE batteries this past spring and have been very happy with the performance, form factor and continued support.

Free shipping, weight, and functioning victron comms is where they beat epoch.
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They do look really good. Three of them would do nicely.

They look like outstanding batteries, as much as an ill-informed observer can judge.

However, at $1,115 each 3 of those would run me $3,345 for a nominal 825Ah. (Although reviews I've seen seem to indicate they are closer to 300Ah each).

They Epoch 460 marine battery would be $3,600 for two, but CMS's 10% discount would make that $3,240 for 920Ah. Up side is that these come with an internal Class T fuse which would have some money and hassle. Downside is that shipping is not free and I am not sure what the shipping costs would be.

I think either would be a good choice.

One of the things that both batteries have is the ability to turn them off.
 
So I think I have decided to go with two of the Epoch Essentials 460Ah batteries to replace my house bank. They are "good" battery, but they aren't the "best" batteries. They lack the same quality of robust construction that the Epoch Marine 460 or the SFK 275Ah have. The Essentials lacks the Victron integration but does have Bluetooth which will work with the Epoch app and they are heated.

The deciding factor more than anything is the cost. The Essentials are a LOT less expensive per Ah. If I was looking to completely remake my system I might consider the other, but I'm going start from scratch and can't justify the cost.

There is still a chance that I could change my mind but I need the batteries soon as my house bank is inches from the grave. In fact, I think I will shift everything over to my old thruster bank to hold me over as I prep for the switch and get rid of the house lead.

BTW, anyone have any ideas of places that might actually buy dead lead?
 
dhays said:
So I think I have decided to go with two of the Epoch Essentials 460Ah batteries to replace my house bank. They are "good" battery, but they aren't the "best" batteries. They lack the same quality of robust construction that the Epoch Marine 460 or the SFK 275Ah have. The Essentials lacks the Victron integration but does have Bluetooth which will work with the Epoch app and they are heated.

The deciding factor more than anything is the cost. The Essentials are a LOT less expensive per Ah. If I was looking to completely remake my system I might consider the other, but I'm going start from scratch and can't justify the cost.

There is still a chance that I could change my mind but I need the batteries soon as my house bank is inches from the grave. In fact, I think I will shift everything over to my old thruster bank to hold me over as I prep for the switch and get rid of the house lead.

BTW, anyone have any ideas of places that might actually buy dead lead?
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Recyclers will usually buy the old batteries.
 
Yeah, good idea. Tell them you have 600 pounds of free lead. Just take them out of the boat - :)
 
Seems the original question concerned not having battery boxes so you could store things on top. You can see I went with a complete Victron system an then built a table over the batteries. I left a nearly 3-inch gap above the batteries for circulation. The electrical room is in the middle of the boat, under the pilothouse, so the temperature is pretty modrate anyway.
20240928_160156.jpg


20240928_112803.jpg
 
Iggy said:
I don't trust the "drop ins". But thats me...

The prices are general lower than than the brand names and don't come with some things like Bluetooth, heater, comm ports and more.
Click to expand...
???
There are many "drop-ins" that com with all of those things.

There really isn't such a thing as a 'brand name' in lithium, in the sense that Trojan or Rolls or Lifeline used to be for LA. There are 'brand names' for the cells, but the battery integrators are all very newly in the business, and some you thought might be good already exited.
 
wfleenor said:
Seems the original question concerned not having battery boxes so you could store things on top. You can see I went with a complete Victron system an then built a table over the batteries. I left a nearly 3-inch gap above the batteries for circulation. The electrical room is in the middle of the boat, under the pilothouse, so the temperature is pretty modrate anyway.View attachment 158652

View attachment 158651
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Looks great. I'm terribly jealous of the amount of space that you have to work with.

I was thinking this evening about doing something similar. Essentially a shelf about three inches above the batteries. I was thinking about using some type of open grid around three sides of the batteries as well just to ensure that nothing loose in the space could hit the batteries. In essence, I want to protect them while also keeping them well ventilated.
 
I don't worry about circulation, I've grabbed the batts many times now while charging and the case is not even warm, just ambient. They are in the engine room but I don't worry about that either, I have a wireless temp sender down there and it never gets over 110F running with no blowers on. I turn on the blowers when I shut down the engines.

My max charge on the 880 AH bank is 150 amps which .17C and that's not going to cause any temp rise.

I like the shelf idea too, it will protect the terminal connections from dropped tool shorts and that's really all that is required. Securement so they don't move when the boat rocks and short circuit protection over the terminals. Also a good flat place to put things when you're working on stuff down there - :)
 
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So I dug out the L16s in prep for removing them. Damn they are heavy. It can't be that I've aged in the 7 years I installed them. No it can't. Really.

Anyway, the odd thing is that one of each pair in series is at ~4.3v and the other is at ~6.45v after resting without any charge on it for several days. I can't figure why. Here is how the bank is configured. The front left and right rear in the diagram were the batteries that were at ~6.45v. The the two series connections are equal to each other tand the two parallel connections are equal to each other.
L16 battery bank3.jpg

Any ideas?
 
What you are saying is that one of the 6V in each 12V battery pair was low? The wiring is as correct as can be done. In each pair, the same current has to go through each member of the series pair. So I'd say just a classic cell imbalance issue. Were these flooded, and did you ever equalize? The ones at 6.4V are normal, the ones at 4.3V are dead.
 
Yeah. It looks like 2 batteries each have a shorted cell.
 
Interestingly, the half of each 12 V battery that had a positive connection to the load was the half battery that was at a lower voltage, possibly due to a failed cell.
Both halves that connected to the negative side of the load were fine.

I wonder if this might have something to do with the series connection wiring?

Anybody know the likely cause?
 
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