120hp Lehman lube
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engine depends on the water temp you are running in. in the northeast I use straight 30 wt. you may want 40 wt. transmission is just regular old ATF. and steering system is just ATF aswell. call american diesel.
Capn Chuck
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Allan, Bob Smith at American Diesel has always recommended straight 30 wt. oil for that engine and that is what we use. You really should not put transmission fluid in your steering. Chuck
RT Firefly
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Hiya,
** As a blanket statement I agree*trans*fluid should not be used as a "universal" fluid BUT I think some units DO use*trans fluid.* Best to check with the manufactuer or someone who REALLY knows what to use before adding possibly the wrong fluid
-- Edited by RT Firefly on Saturday 22nd of May 2010 07:50:08 PM
** As a blanket statement I agree*trans*fluid should not be used as a "universal" fluid BUT I think some units DO use*trans fluid.* Best to check with the manufactuer or someone who REALLY knows what to use before adding possibly the wrong fluid
-- Edited by RT Firefly on Saturday 22nd of May 2010 07:50:08 PM
On the advice of our diesel shop and other people we know in the marine diesel business we have run Chevron Delo 400 30wt. in our Lehman 120s since buying the boat 12 years ago. We use the same oil in the Simms injector pump. The owners manual for the Lehman 120 contains a chart calling out the recommended oil weights for different climate temperatures. 30wt is the recommendation for the PNW climate.
It was strongly recommended to us by the aforementioned people not to use multi-viscosity oils or synthetic oils in our engines, so we never have. However, I do know of people who have used both of these types of oils in Lehman 120s and they claim to have had (so far) good success with them.
We have Borg Warner Velvet Drive transmissions and the only recommended fluid for them per our VD operators manual is ATF (Dexron). It's been pointed out on the GB owners forum that the VD manuals for later years still recommend ATF but also state that engine lube oil can be used. I know of a couple of GB owners who run the same Delo 400 30wt in their transmissions that they use in their engines. However I would recommend staying with the BW VD operator's manual recommendation and use ATF unless you simply cant' get it.
We don't have hydraulic steering so I have no idea what the recommended fluid for that would be.
-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 22nd of May 2010 07:59:25 PM
It was strongly recommended to us by the aforementioned people not to use multi-viscosity oils or synthetic oils in our engines, so we never have. However, I do know of people who have used both of these types of oils in Lehman 120s and they claim to have had (so far) good success with them.
We have Borg Warner Velvet Drive transmissions and the only recommended fluid for them per our VD operators manual is ATF (Dexron). It's been pointed out on the GB owners forum that the VD manuals for later years still recommend ATF but also state that engine lube oil can be used. I know of a couple of GB owners who run the same Delo 400 30wt in their transmissions that they use in their engines. However I would recommend staying with the BW VD operator's manual recommendation and use ATF unless you simply cant' get it.
We don't have hydraulic steering so I have no idea what the recommended fluid for that would be.
-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 22nd of May 2010 07:59:25 PM
Keith
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I use straight Delo 400 40 wt. in my Lehman 135, since I'm in a warm climate (Texas). The borg warner tranny will take ATF or straight 30 wt. When I had it rebuilt, I switched over to the ATF. 8KW Westerbeke genset takes straight 30 wt.
To simplify matters, the PO used straight 30 wt. in all three and that seemed fine at 4000+ hrs.
To simplify matters, the PO used straight 30 wt. in all three and that seemed fine at 4000+ hrs.
FF
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At some point in the near future I will change to SAE30 synthetic.
Many OTR trucks switch for the better fuel milage,
BUT on a boat I would be very cautious as the big advantage of synthetic , faster draining from surfaces , may cause severe rusting on not used engines.
A quart or two of synthetic will allow the better sheer strength of Synthetic with out the rusting cylinders.
Many OTR trucks switch for the better fuel milage,
BUT on a boat I would be very cautious as the big advantage of synthetic , faster draining from surfaces , may cause severe rusting on not used engines.
A quart or two of synthetic will allow the better sheer strength of Synthetic with out the rusting cylinders.
Capn Chuck
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Every mechanic I have ever contacted and everyone involved in the Lehman 120, including American Diesel cautions NOT to use synthetic oil in these engines. Keep in mind with most posts from FF that he is referring to trucks and most of us are discussing boats. By his own post he cautions on using synthetic so one has to wonder why post the information other than add to your post count. It can get confusing.
BaltimoreLurker
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Rotella T, single wt. 30 for me.
But now it seems to be called Rotella T1 for some reason.
But now it seems to be called Rotella T1 for some reason.
RickB
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You will find that many (most?)*lube oils sold as "synthetic" and many not even*labled as synthetic*are a blend of mineral and*synthetics.
Find out what*base stock your favorite lube oil is made from.
-- Edited by RickB on Thursday 27th of May 2010 12:56:18 PM
I have seen occasional posts on the T&T list and on the GB forum from people who said they switched their FL120s to synthetic oil. They have cited no problems and listed benefits with less smoke being the primary one and probably other things, too that I don't remember. In most cases, while their engines sometimes had a fair number of hours on them when they switched, they had run the engines on synthetic oil for a few hundred hours at most at the time of their posts. I've not yet seen a post from anyone who's run an FL120 on synthetic oil*for many thousands of hours or many years
But all the people we know or have talked to who are familiar with the FL120 on a professional basis have recommended using a single weight, conventional oil, and so far as I know, there have been no problems with using this oil since the engine was first produced in the late 1950s. The FL120 has a reputation for being a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine in well-maintained recreational service, and they have gone as much as 25,000 hours in continuous commercial service with the Washington State Ferry system according to American Diesel, all of it on the recommended "dinosaur" oil.
So it would seem that there aren't any penalties or even potential penalties for using the oil the engine was designed originally to use. On the other hand, there seem to be plenty of questions about and reccomendations against using synthetic oil (and some engine pros we've talked to even recommend against using multi-viscosity conventional oil in this engine).* So my way of thinking is that even if some of what the pros say is wrong or outdated, why take the risk, however small it may or may not be, when the risk can be eliminated by using what the manufacturer recommended at the outset?
If synthetic is all that's available in some area, so it's a matter of use it or not run the engine, then I guess one has no other choice. But where the recommended single-weight, conventional oil is available, why try to fix something that isn't broken?
-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 27th of May 2010 05:38:11 PM
But all the people we know or have talked to who are familiar with the FL120 on a professional basis have recommended using a single weight, conventional oil, and so far as I know, there have been no problems with using this oil since the engine was first produced in the late 1950s. The FL120 has a reputation for being a 12,000 to 14,000 hour engine in well-maintained recreational service, and they have gone as much as 25,000 hours in continuous commercial service with the Washington State Ferry system according to American Diesel, all of it on the recommended "dinosaur" oil.
So it would seem that there aren't any penalties or even potential penalties for using the oil the engine was designed originally to use. On the other hand, there seem to be plenty of questions about and reccomendations against using synthetic oil (and some engine pros we've talked to even recommend against using multi-viscosity conventional oil in this engine).* So my way of thinking is that even if some of what the pros say is wrong or outdated, why take the risk, however small it may or may not be, when the risk can be eliminated by using what the manufacturer recommended at the outset?
If synthetic is all that's available in some area, so it's a matter of use it or not run the engine, then I guess one has no other choice. But where the recommended single-weight, conventional oil is available, why try to fix something that isn't broken?
-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 27th of May 2010 05:38:11 PM
FF
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. Keep in mind with most posts from FF that he is referring to trucks and most of us are discussing boats.
The lorry or tractor based Lehman Econo-power marinizations are a good use on a fairly light duty engine for similar use burning a few GPH.
They do not suffer much from underloading and last a long time.
The usual fear with synthetic was LEAKS from the old gaskets on 30 year old engines.
Chemistry helps and many synthetics use the same stuff as an auto tranny gasket swelling stuff found at NAPA.
Weather its an industrial engine , truck engine or car transplant the use in most boats gives long , sometimes REALLY long periods of no use.
My point with Synthetics is any "benefits" will need to be evaluated vs the chance of rusting the internals .
Yes synthetic and dino oil are mixable , but I prefer to stick with the same brand when making the change over , one makeup quart at a time.
When allowd by the engine origional mfg , I* use single wt. dino oil .
-- Edited by FF on Friday 28th of May 2010 04:52:47 AM
The lorry or tractor based Lehman Econo-power marinizations are a good use on a fairly light duty engine for similar use burning a few GPH.
They do not suffer much from underloading and last a long time.
The usual fear with synthetic was LEAKS from the old gaskets on 30 year old engines.
Chemistry helps and many synthetics use the same stuff as an auto tranny gasket swelling stuff found at NAPA.
Weather its an industrial engine , truck engine or car transplant the use in most boats gives long , sometimes REALLY long periods of no use.
My point with Synthetics is any "benefits" will need to be evaluated vs the chance of rusting the internals .
Yes synthetic and dino oil are mixable , but I prefer to stick with the same brand when making the change over , one makeup quart at a time.
When allowd by the engine origional mfg , I* use single wt. dino oil .
-- Edited by FF on Friday 28th of May 2010 04:52:47 AM
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Coming in a bit late here, but if memory serves, Allan's original query was re what oil in the tranny. My 35 yr old CHB Clipper 34 with FL 120 is mated to a Paragon tranny, as opposed to the Borg Warner, but definitely advises to use a Ford ATF Dexron type fluid, for what it's worth. However, I have been a bit intrigued re the discussion of what to use in the engine, and I admit, because I am a fan of the metal attracting/coating cold start protection technology involved, I have been using Castrol Magnatec Diesel oil in my engine. It is a 10/40W multigrade, as opposed to 30W single grade, but appears to work well, and I'm using it in the hope it does indeed give added cold start-up protection claimed, as this is the enemy of most engines which don't do a lot of long hot miles. So far, she is still running like clockwork after 8 ys since purchase, and using this oil, on original engine, never overhauled, and using virtually nothing between annual oil changes. Ok, I'm ducking already.......
Oh damn....we are now 2 goals down to Germany...I was hoping we would waste them.....
-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 13th of June 2010 01:38:18 PM
Oh damn....we are now 2 goals down to Germany...I was hoping we would waste them.....
-- Edited by Peter B on Sunday 13th of June 2010 01:38:18 PM
Penta
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One should be very careful to specify what transmission they are using when asking questions such as appropriate lube for them as it various considerably depending on the manufacturer.
In our case we have a Capitol gear and they specify Lubriplate APG-90 or if operating in low temperatures to use APG- 75.
I don't think ATF would do much for the insides of these gears and I for one am not about to experiment
As for the steering, well if its hydraulic I cannot see how it would vary much from any commercial equipment requirements and as such I use commercial equipment hydraulic oil in our Wagner gear and have done for years. I think that all the "packaged" specialty fluids such as put out by Seastar are just expensive variations of the commercial fluid.
John Tones "Penta"
Sidney, BC
In our case we have a Capitol gear and they specify Lubriplate APG-90 or if operating in low temperatures to use APG- 75.
I don't think ATF would do much for the insides of these gears and I for one am not about to experiment
As for the steering, well if its hydraulic I cannot see how it would vary much from any commercial equipment requirements and as such I use commercial equipment hydraulic oil in our Wagner gear and have done for years. I think that all the "packaged" specialty fluids such as put out by Seastar are just expensive variations of the commercial fluid.
John Tones "Penta"
Sidney, BC
Nomad Willy
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Fred,On 2 stroke engines synthetic oil really stays put on the pistons. You can see the oil through the exhaust ports * * ..looks like brush strokes on wet paint. And it stays on for a long time. Yea * .. the gasket problem (causing gaskets to shrink (actually I think it was an oil seal problem)) was fixed a long time ago by putting an additive in the syn oil that caused seals/and/or gaskets to swell as much as they were shrinking. As far as I know all syn lube has that additive. I see so few benefits from using syn oil in a boat I'd say save your money. It's like putting premium gas in your car that dos'nt ping on regular * * ..a waste of money. But if your'e running a racing engine that produces serious heat syn oil is almost (and in some cases is) a must. A very high output turbo'd engine running at or near WOT needs the temperature stability of a syn oil (lubericant). But I think there's only one downside to syn oil and that is cost.
Peter B
All those viscosity improvers in a 10-40W oil are not doing anything to lubricate your engine. We don't need or benefit from multi-vis oil. Even here in Alaska I don't see the need. If I was running a fire boat * * .. then yes.
I use Delo 30W in my engine, ATF in my BW and ATF in my hydraulic steering.
Eric
-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 14th of June 2010 04:49:15 PM
Peter B
All those viscosity improvers in a 10-40W oil are not doing anything to lubricate your engine. We don't need or benefit from multi-vis oil. Even here in Alaska I don't see the need. If I was running a fire boat * * .. then yes.
I use Delo 30W in my engine, ATF in my BW and ATF in my hydraulic steering.
Eric
-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 14th of June 2010 04:49:15 PM
albin man
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I use 15-40 Rotella in the FL 120, based on a discussion with Bob Smith, and 5-30 synthetic in my BW Velvet Drive tranny after I rebuilt it based on a conversation with the Velvet Drive distributor.
ralphyost
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I am running SAE 30 Shell Rotella T oil in my Lehman 120, Kohler 8KW genset, and the Lehman injection pump lube resevoir.
I run Dextron III in my 2007 Velvet drive tranny, model 10-18.
As far as steering fluid, in conversations I had with Teleflex, I was told by their tech support that Dextron tranny fluid can* be use safely with no concern. No need to spend $17/qt for Teleflex Steering fluid from West Marine.
My boat is a 1982 Defever 41.
I run Dextron III in my 2007 Velvet drive tranny, model 10-18.
As far as steering fluid, in conversations I had with Teleflex, I was told by their tech support that Dextron tranny fluid can* be use safely with no concern. No need to spend $17/qt for Teleflex Steering fluid from West Marine.
My boat is a 1982 Defever 41.
Nomad Willy
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albin man,I think your light viscosity synthetic in the BW may be a good idea. However I think multi-vis is slightly undesirable but I suspect that multi-vis synthetic meets the requirements or standards for without any VI improvers. And in that case you may have a good BW lube.
But there is one other possible downside to the engine lube oil for the transmission and that is foaming. Gears and clutches make like an egg beater and churn the oil up something fierce. I think the ATF has extra serious anti-foaming additives and that would make it the best oil for the BW.
But there is one other possible downside to the engine lube oil for the transmission and that is foaming. Gears and clutches make like an egg beater and churn the oil up something fierce. I think the ATF has extra serious anti-foaming additives and that would make it the best oil for the BW.
jleonard
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The BW manual does approve the use of engine oil provided the rpm does not exceed 3000 which means it is ok for our low rpm diesels.
I know from my experience in working for a bearing company for many years that ATF is not a desireable bearing lube. Hence my decision to go with engine oil.
After 3 seasons so far so good.
I know from my experience in working for a bearing company for many years that ATF is not a desireable bearing lube. Hence my decision to go with engine oil.
After 3 seasons so far so good.
FF
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However a tranny IS a place where there could be advantages to a synthetic oil.
The lubrication and sheer strength are better and the tranny may well run cooler.
The lubrication and sheer strength are better and the tranny may well run cooler.
ralphyost
Senior Member
"The lubrication and sheer strength are better and the tranny may well run cooler."
I would be interested to know if anyone had tried synthetic oil in their Borg Warner Velvet drive and if it really did run cooler...and by how much.
thanks
R.
I would be interested to know if anyone had tried synthetic oil in their Borg Warner Velvet drive and if it really did run cooler...and by how much.
thanks
R.
Haven't tried synthetics in either engines or transmissions, but we did replace the stock raw water pumps on our FL120s (the original pump drive has a design flaw that causes it to eventually fail and there are no replacements on the planet), with new, larger Johnson pumps and this very definitely made the transmissions run cooler.
jleonard
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Ralph,
I am using synthetic 5-30 (Castrol Syntech) *in my BW.
Been a while since I took my tranny's temperature but memory says it was something like 120 going into the cooler and 105 going back into the tranny.
Measured with a IR temp gun on the fittings.
Measurements taken at my "typical" 1750 rpm cruise, cool LI Sound water.
I am using synthetic 5-30 (Castrol Syntech) *in my BW.
Been a while since I took my tranny's temperature but memory says it was something like 120 going into the cooler and 105 going back into the tranny.
Measured with a IR temp gun on the fittings.
Measurements taken at my "typical" 1750 rpm cruise, cool LI Sound water.
Nomad Willy
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Any reduction in temperature would probably be due to a reduction in viscosity * *...not friction.jleonard, I'll bet the manual redlined the engine lube oil as it is of higher viscosity however when they wrote the manual synthetics weren't available but I think I think anti-foaming additives are more important and more abundant in ATF. And as to shear strength that probably is an issue w plain bearings more so than balls and rollers. And I'll bet most all the heavy load carrying bearings are roller. Sounding a bit like Marin I'll say that all the "experts" I encounter say to use ATF. A side note on the BW is that the oil pump can consume up to 5hp just pumping oil and the viscosity of the oil is what causes the resistance requiring the 5hp loss. It's possible the 5-10W has lower viscosity than the ATF but I would'nt bet my equipment on it. Since I have such a low powered engine for the BW (37hp) my mechanic installed a much smaller gear impeller in the oil pump to reduce heat and power loss.
jleonard
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And I'll bet most all the heavy load carrying bearings are roller
They are ball bearings in my BW 71 series. And I am going to go out on a limb and say that at the rpm I run at foaming will never be an issue. Never. I will take the lubrication qualities of a regular motor oil any day over tranny fluid. That has been proven in many applications by the bearing engineers I used to work with.*
But that is me and you can certainly use the oil of your choice.
They are ball bearings in my BW 71 series. And I am going to go out on a limb and say that at the rpm I run at foaming will never be an issue. Never. I will take the lubrication qualities of a regular motor oil any day over tranny fluid. That has been proven in many applications by the bearing engineers I used to work with.*
But that is me and you can certainly use the oil of your choice.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Jay,I'm not going to say your'e wrong as I was the one that said synthetic low vis lube oil may be a good modern oil for the BW.
BUT. How does the BW fail? Bearings, clutches, oil pump, seals, valves or some other factor like heat. And why did all auto manufacturers have a special low vis oil for their automatic transmissions? I suspect it was because of foaming of conventional oils and the extensive use of ball and roller bearings. But I'm not a lubricating engineer and there are no doubt other additives in ATF that I don't know about. I am one of the first to experiment and do things that are not recommended so I feel a little awkward being on the other side of the fence but usually it's best to use a product designed for what one is doing. Is there no synthetic ATF available? That seems to be an obvious route to take. If there isn't any there is (no doubt) a good reason for it. It could be simply marketing or it could be performance related. One just dosn't know.
BUT. How does the BW fail? Bearings, clutches, oil pump, seals, valves or some other factor like heat. And why did all auto manufacturers have a special low vis oil for their automatic transmissions? I suspect it was because of foaming of conventional oils and the extensive use of ball and roller bearings. But I'm not a lubricating engineer and there are no doubt other additives in ATF that I don't know about. I am one of the first to experiment and do things that are not recommended so I feel a little awkward being on the other side of the fence but usually it's best to use a product designed for what one is doing. Is there no synthetic ATF available? That seems to be an obvious route to take. If there isn't any there is (no doubt) a good reason for it. It could be simply marketing or it could be performance related. One just dosn't know.
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