2nd start of fire in electrical equipment, what are your experiences ?

[Mambo42]

The dealer is not Victron. I'd wait for Victron's response.
If Victron says you are on your own, I would use the ferrule that CMS said worked on the 10 ga. wire. CMS is reliable.


I would also use whatever wire Victron specifies. That reminds me, among other things you were going to advise as to what spec. mandated by Victron the Ancor wire fails to meet. How long do I have to wait?

I'd wait for Vicron's response ?
And who is Victron then ?
Is Victron official dealer A or is Victron official dealer nr B or is Victron only the head office and all others you simply forget ?

As to what Victron advised if a cable fails to meet ?
I have no bloody clue what Victron advised since they advise only what their book says. If that is not available............you are on your own. That is the position of Victron.

I asked you whether this shoe, which is advised by one Victron dealer and advised against by another Victron dealer is good according to you.
Your answer ?
Go with what Victron advises

So now you are at Victron dealer nr A where you buy all your equipment and they say that this is the shoe to be used. You really want to claim that you will then call the head office of Victron to find out if they agree with dealer A ?
Am sorry to say, but that is a load of crap I hope you don't believe yourself. You won't call the head office, nor would anybody else. You will take the advise of the dealer that you are at, after all they are an official dealer and you are to expect they know what they are talking about.

How does it matter if the person who gives you your Amazon ordered stuff that DHL largely (save the last mile or so) delivered to the office that you are standing in, that happens to be in Backwater Greece, gets their paycheck from DHL or Joe's Courier Services?
DHL has their shingle on the wall outside. All the rest of the details are just noise.

Remember Amazon hired DHL, not you.

You still don't seem to understand what it is all about or are you just pretending ?
Fact is that DHL has offices on their websites on islands where they don't have any offices at all anymore. Perhaps in the past they were official DHL points, but not anymore. Only problem is that DHL has not updated anything.
So now you buy at Amazon and they need to ship to an office that does not exist anymore. Where do you think your package is going to end up ?
Right, I have no clue either. They may send it to the non existent office on the island you are on, after which it will get returned to .............I don't know where.
Or..........they will ship it to Athens, where it will remain because there is no more DHL office on that particular island or the courier they work with does not have an agreement with DHL anymore.

And all the while you don't care ?
So your package is underway and then....................disappears.
Status will remain as is and now you can start searching where the package went. In Greek ? Good luck.

 

[Mambo42]

Victron reps are offering solutions to your problem, but from this thread I have learned that it is designed to accept bare small strand wire. That will allow a compression by the proper torque. These shoes/ferrules cannot compress any more than the large strand wire you have been putting in there.

A while back I suggested terminating the large wire on a connection block, then taking a short small strand of the correct size (trimmed of strands since you cannot get exact) inserted into the victron to allow the torque as designed. A short smaller diameter will carry the current the long one is needed for.

This shoe that I posted was offered to me today by an official Victron dealer in the Netherlands. This shoe is what you should use in an MPPT controller, but as you stated correctly: this cannot be compressed, so what is the difference with the cable I am using currently ?
Moreover, if this is what an official dealer suggests and it is wrong............is Victron then going to claim that the wrong shoe was used ?
I did ask Victron head office, but I was met with silence. Wonder if I am going to get an answer or not at all.

However to me it is clear that, even amongst dealers, it is completely unclear what can and what cannot be used in Victron equipment.
If a dealer does not know then why does Victron expect an end consumer knows what can or cannot be used ?

As I stated before, on page 34 of the manual they advise to use a certain circuit breaker, but when you watch the video I posted you will agree with me that this particular circuit breaker is the last thing you want to use.
Conclusion: even Victron is advising to use materials which are completely unsafe.
When you ask them about it they conveniently avoid to answer that question.

 

[psneeld]

I wish you would stop speaking about what someone should do or think....and accusing people being " full of crap"....hmmm not good.

I was an installer for an authorized dealer for multiple brands of electronics. As I said before, most of the employees should never have been believed blindly.

I ALWAYS when in doubt about the install, speak to someone at the manufacturer of any equipment, NEVER believing the just the selling dealer. Maybe it's because of my background, but I know I am not alone as usually the wait to speak to manufacturing service centers can be quite awhile.

So YES, I do call the "head shed" and not rely on someone at a dealership who may have little actual knowledge of the product's engineering requirements. Especially if I think the manual is confusing and have found in research that what I am concerned about in the manual (2 different opinions from almost anyone is enough)

The alternative here in the US, not sure about worldwide, is to speak with a manufacturer's field rep. Some of them are extremely knowledgeable and have quick access to the manufacturer's service center if they need your question answered. They are often at the trade shows and available for questions.

 

[luna]

Victron is that Dutch company, you know the Dutch, you're one of them.
Victron's dealers are just that dealers, that would rather sell whatever brand offers the best bang for the buck. Just like the car dealer who hoodwinked you into changing your oil every 3000 miles when the car manufacturer says to maintain the warranty, do it every 7500 miles. Let me think, who wins there?

In your post #121, you said this.

Just for your info, the wire you found would not meet the standards of Victron, so basically you have still found an incorrect cable.

So as you said it, all I'm asking for is for you to prove it. Where are the standards? Be specific.

With respect to who to believe as to what ferrule to use, it was you in post # 176 who asked (me) "or should I wait for Victron to give me the verdict"
I responded, I'd wait for Victron. That was all of 4 posts ago.
Now you ask "and who is Victron then"

What kind of drugs are you on?

How can you say with any certainty that I would not call Victron and ask for confirmation on what their dealer (which could also be Amazon, who has never installed one of these things) is saying?

Ya, I got it, DHL just like that large 10 outlet chandlery is pulling out of and reducing inventory so fast in Greece that they can't revise their website to reflect reality quick enough.
You better get out of Dodge before you start circling the drain.

How come all of your arguments end up with "oh but you are not here" kind of statements?

Be a stand up guy, answer my 3 earlier questions.
That includes the question about your earlier reference to the isolator on page 34 that you just referenced again. Where and on what page 34?

 

[lwarden]

I'm not a fan of the crimp shown a few posts ago, especially where there are heavy gauge wires, vibration and high current. Copper is a weak metal, and with the transition from the larger barrel to the tab that area will work harden and fracture over time with vibration. If there is no vibration, then it's probably fine.

Here is another suggestion: Use the following link at Phoenix Contact and ask their opinion on the situation.
us-technicalservice@phoenixcontact.com
It's their component, not one made by Victron. They will know far more than Victron about the dynamics of the clamping function and detail of different wire constructions and ferrules. Report back and we can all get some education.

 

[twistedtree]

Yawn.

 

[slowgoesit]

The discussion is not that it is not clear.
The problem is that this specific cable, of the thickness required, fire retardant and marine grade............could not be sourced in Greece. It was impossible to get that cable unless I would buy the whole roll (needed between 6 and 8 mtrs) for both black and red, for a total price of 800 euro and it was unclear when that special order would then arrive.
That was the reason why a 6 mm2 cable was used.

DHL is not the problem.
Greece is not the problem.
Suppliers in Greece are not the problem.

The problem, simply stated, is that Victron clearly states in the manual what type of wiring must be used, and failure to use the specified wiring may result in a fire. . . . . and either the owner, or the shipyard knowingly decided to disregard those warnings.

It's really that simple.

The OP states above (in post # 144), that even though the correct wiring WAS OBTAINABLE, . . . . due to the cost, . . . . SUBSTITUTE wiring, that DID NOT MEET Victron specifications was used, with exactly the results that Victron stated in the manual might happen if the wrong wiring was used.

Either the shipyard, or the owner, decided DUE TO COST, to go against the manufacturers installation instructions, with the resulting warned failure . . . . not just ONCE, but when the first failure occurred, he CONTINUED to use the installation/wiring that had already demonstrated to be a problem and a fire hazard . . . .

In what universe is this a Victron problem, or Victron failure?!?

Once again, that fact that the boat, the owner, and installers were/are in Greece is actually not relevant to the narrative.

 

[psneeld]

What I get out of this thread is...... that Victron failed to sell a product that had a universal wiring block that could use whatever wiring/connector was on hand. Having a universal block or "Greece" model would be good engineering and make the most sense.

Like some manufactures include universal power adapters for their appliances that come right in the package.

Sure......that is one way to do it. However more and more you see their prices are more than the competitor that doesn't include it or that the same company doesn't include it and charges less...often very close to the price of the adaptor.

Does that make Victron at fault? Well one can argue it might be bad business, but in no way one can blame a meltdown on them when there is literature, internet postings and videos warning of a potential problem.

So like the power adaptor idea, if I read a one star review that says a product is lousy because the plugged a 120V plug into a 200V+ outlet WITHOUT the adaptor I really don't take it seriously as a PRODUCT problem or a MANUFACTURER problem.

 

[Mambo42]

DHL is not the problem.
Greece is not the problem.
Suppliers in Greece are not the problem.

The problem, simply stated, is that Victron clearly states in the manual what type of wiring must be used, and failure to use the specified wiring may result in a fire. . . . . and either the owner, or the shipyard knowingly decided to disregard those warnings.

It's really that simple.

The OP states above (in post # 144), that even though the correct wiring WAS OBTAINABLE, . . . . due to the cost, . . . . SUBSTITUTE wiring, that DID NOT MEET Victron specifications was used, with exactly the results that Victron stated in the manual might happen if the wrong wiring was used.

Either the shipyard, or the owner, decided DUE TO COST, to go against the manufacturers installation instructions, with the resulting warned failure . . . . not just ONCE, but when the first failure occurred, he CONTINUED to use the installation/wiring that had already demonstrated to be a problem and a fire hazard . . . .

In what universe is this a Victron problem, or Victron failure?!?

Once again, that fact that the boat, the owner, and installers were/are in Greece is actually not relevant to the narrative.

Sorry to say, but that is a very simplistic way of coming to a verdict and it bypasses several important issues.

DHL is, although you may not believe me, a problem in Greece. DHL is not doing well in Greece and the reason is their are loads of small couriers. So DHL has been closing offices in most of Greece and now works with one (or two) of these small couriers. However, they go as quickly as they come, which means DHL continuously changes 'partners' (if you can call them that). Basically you pay the service twice, once to DHL and once to the courier.
As stated before, but reading is for many an incredible problem:
The 5 mm2 correct cable was not available in Greece, nor could they give any delivery time. I had to have the rewiring done in 2.5 months, that was all the time the marina gave us. So what is the plan ? Try to source it, pay 8 euro per meter (for a total of 800 euro) and still don't know if that cable would arrive in time ? I.o.w. they could have ordered the cable, which means you first have to pay it, then they will order it and the chances would still have been there that the cable would have arrived months later ? In the mean time the work would have come to a halt at some time, getting us into trouble with the marina.

Or, as the installer suggested, use the available 6 mm2 cable which does fit in the 100 /30 controller, but.......as it turned out, does not fit (with a ferrule) in the 100/15 controller. Only problem was, they figured that one out once they had already completely pulled that cable through the boat. So that is when they decided not to use a ferrule.
This is a Victron authorized installer, i.o.w. they have been trained by Victron, so should I, as a customer, be allowed to expect they know what they are doing ?
And should I, as a customer, not end up in a fire hazard if the instructions of Victron are not followed to the letter precisely ?

Your statement that the advise of Victron was not followed, therefore a fire hazard (and even a fire) is completely normal and should be expected, does not fly with me.
I can accept that Victron will say the equipment may not function optimal, but when Victron knows there have been multiple fires already and the solution to this problem is so incredibly simple and easy, my question becomes: 'why does Victron not change that connection block to make it more safe ?'

And last but not least:
How is it possible that 2 different Victron distributors advise completely different ferrules ? How ever you want to turn it, one of those distributors is clearly wrong and I hope that you are not going to say now: 'well, in that case you have to call Victron'.
Because if you are going to say that I would like you to go to the website of Victron and find the telephone number of the head office..................it is not listed.
I was able to find that number anyway, so I called with the head office, but if you try to call them you won't get past the operator if you don't know who to talk to.
So how exactly are you going to ask Victron ? Send them an e-mail while you are standing in the shop, because you don't trust the advise of the distributor ? Does not sound very realistic doesn't it ?

 

[Mambo42]

What I get out of this thread is...... that Victron failed to sell a product that had a universal wiring block that could use whatever wiring/connector was on hand. Having a universal block or "Greece" model would be good engineering and make the most sense.

Like some manufactures include universal power adapters for their appliances that come right in the package.

Sure......that is one way to do it. However more and more you see their prices are more than the competitor that doesn't include it or that the same company doesn't include it and charges less...often very close to the price of the adaptor.

Does that make Victron at fault? Well one can argue it might be bad business, but in no way one can blame a meltdown on them when there is literature, internet postings and videos warning of a potential problem.

So like the power adaptor idea, if I read a one star review that says a product is lousy because the plugged a 120V plug into a 200V+ outlet WITHOUT the adaptor I really don't take it seriously as a PRODUCT problem or a MANUFACTURER problem.

I was asking myself the same question:
Why does Victron use a connection block that is so critical on how the wires are installed ? There are loads of other, safer, options on the market, so why not use them ?
Why does Victron sell equipment which is developed for the American market, in an unchanged version in the European market when Victron knows that is going to give problems. Demanding that a cable has to be used which is next to impossible to get in Europe is absurd. Who comes up with that idea ?

If they would have changed the connection block of the 100 / 15 to the block they use in the 100 / 30 controller the problem would have been slightly smaller, but still, also that connection block is flawed.

And lastly, if Victron knows that the connections are so critical and the precise wires and ferrules are so incredibly important...............why don't you make it a package deal, so that the customers can never make a mistake.
Many companies do this with their equipment. Buy a radar from Raymarine and you can choose the amount of meters the connection cable needs to be. Price goes up if the cable gets longer, but it is being sold together with the radar. That seems like a good idea for Victron as well, it solves a lot of problems.
But that also comes with the obligation to ensure the distributors know what they are talking about and I found out that even amongst the distributors there are huge differences. Some distributors know absolutely everything, others know absolutely nothing, but they pretend they can advise the customer. They will happily sell the customer the wrong cables and ferrules after which Victron can blame the customer for not using the correct cable and ferrule.

So does Victron have an obligation to improve safety of their product ? In my opinion they do and if they don't want to accept that responsibility, take the decision to only sell Victron equipment through official installation companies that also will install the equipment. I.o.w. you can no longer buy Victron and either install it yourself or have a non Victron qualified installer do the job.
Yes, it is going to cost them a lot of turn over, but that is the price for being unwilling to improve safety.

 

[mvweebles]

What I get out of this thread is...... that Victron failed to sell a product that had a universal wiring block that could use whatever wiring/connector was on hand. Having a universal block or "Greece" model would be good engineering and make the most sense.

Like some manufactures include universal power adapters for their appliances that come right in the package.

Sure......that is one way to do it. However more and more you see their prices are more than the competitor that doesn't include it or that the same company doesn't include it and charges less...often very close to the price of the adaptor.

Does that make Victron at fault? Well one can argue it might be bad business, but in no way one can blame a meltdown on them when there is literature, internet postings and videos warning of a potential problem.

So like the power adaptor idea, if I read a one star review that says a product is lousy because the plugged a 120V plug into a 200V+ outlet WITHOUT the adaptor I really don't take it seriously as a PRODUCT problem or a MANUFACTURER problem.

I think this is a good post. I agree that had install instructions been followed explicitly, issue would have been avoided. But the point I take away from Mambo's posts (albeit less vociferously and less Eurocentric) is the Victron design standard is pretty narrow and not very tolerant of realities of true installation challenges. Both statements can be true.

Someday there will be workable alternatives to Victron "box-O-parts" at which time maybe they'll start listening to their customers before they get stomped by competition. But that day isn't soon -

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

Sorry to say, but that is a very simplistic way of coming to a verdict and it bypasses several important issues.

DHL is, although you may not believe me, a problem in Greece. DHL is not doing well in Greece and the reason is their are loads of small couriers. So DHL has been closing offices in most of Greece and now works with one (or two) of these small couriers. However, they go as quickly as they come, which means DHL continuously changes 'partners' (if you can call them that). Basically you pay the service twice, once to DHL and once to the courier.
As stated before, but reading is for many an incredible problem:
The 5 mm2 correct cable was not available in Greece, nor could they give any delivery time. I had to have the rewiring done in 2.5 months, that was all the time the marina gave us. So what is the plan ? Try to source it, pay 8 euro per meter (for a total of 800 euro) and still don't know if that cable would arrive in time ? I.o.w. they could have ordered the cable, which means you first have to pay it, then they will order it and the chances would still have been there that the cable would have arrived months later ? In the mean time the work would have come to a halt at some time, getting us into trouble with the marina.

Or, as the installer suggested, use the available 6 mm2 cable which does fit in the 100 /30 controller, but.......as it turned out, does not fit (with a ferrule) in the 100/15 controller. Only problem was, they figured that one out once they had already completely pulled that cable through the boat. So that is when they decided not to use a ferrule.
This is a Victron authorized installer, i.o.w. they have been trained by Victron, so should I, as a customer, be allowed to expect they know what they are doing ?
And should I, as a customer, not end up in a fire hazard if the instructions of Victron are not followed to the letter precisely ?

Your statement that the advise of Victron was not followed, therefore a fire hazard (and even a fire) is completely normal and should be expected, does not fly with me.
I can accept that Victron will say the equipment may not function optimal, but when Victron knows there have been multiple fires already and the solution to this problem is so incredibly simple and easy, my question becomes: 'why does Victron not change that connection block to make it more safe ?'

And last but not least:
How is it possible that 2 different Victron distributors advise completely different ferrules ? How ever you want to turn it, one of those distributors is clearly wrong and I hope that you are not going to say now: 'well, in that case you have to call Victron'.
Because if you are going to say that I would like you to go to the website of Victron and find the telephone number of the head office..................it is not listed.
I was able to find that number anyway, so I called with the head office, but if you try to call them you won't get past the operator if you don't know who to talk to.
So how exactly are you going to ask Victron ? Send them an e-mail while you are standing in the shop, because you don't trust the advise of the distributor ? Does not sound very realistic doesn't it ?

Absolutely, it really IS that simple. You, or the installer, either failed to read the manual, or read the manual and intentionally elected to ignore the warnings in the manual. That resulted in a situation that the manual specifically addressed, ie; an over heating exactly as the manual warned may happen in the event the incorrect type/size wiring was used . . . .

Like I said, all the rest is irrelevant to the situation. You are STILL pointing fingers at:

• Victron
• DHL
• Greek suppliers
• the EU in general

Like stated earlier in the thread, you need to own the outcome, seeing as how you admitted you did not follow the installation manual.

All that aside, the immediate takeaway from all this is that until you rectify your solar panel installation, you need to IMMEDIATELY STOP USING YOUR SOLAR PANEL INSTALLATION in order avoid another over heating event, and damage to equipment/boat, or loss of life.

The first step in correcting a problem is to identify the problem (you failed to follow the manufacturers instructions, and used the wrong wire). The reason you did that, as stated is immaterial, and just obscures the root problem.
The next step is to figure out what to do about it, which is:

1. Immediately stop using the dangerous installation
2. Correct the root problem (install the system in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations)

Yes, it REALLY is that simple.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of of who is to blame . . . .

 

[SteveK]

@Mambo42
Did I read that you supplied the parts to the installer?
The source of your purchased equipment should be the responsible for stocking the correct cable.
Now, with the second burn, you are fully aware that you need a specific wire. You are still responsible for RTFM.
My suggestion for the third time is terminate the wrong wire on a block, or inline connector close to Victron and add short pieces of the correct wire.

 

[mvweebles]

Absolutely, it really IS that simple. You, or the installer, either failed to read the manual, or read the manual and intentionally elected to ignore the warnings in the manual. That resulted in a situation that the manual specifically addressed, ie; an over heating exactly as the manual warned may happen in the event the incorrect type/size wiring was used . . . .

Like I said, all the rest is irrelevant to the situation. You are STILL pointing fingers at:

• Victron
• DHL
• Greek suppliers
• the EU in general

Like stated earlier in the thread, you need to own the outcome, seeing as how you admitted you did not follow the installation manual.

All that aside, the immediate takeaway from all this is that until you rectify your solar panel installation, you need to IMMEDIATELY STOP USING YOUR SOLAR PANEL INSTALLATION in order avoid another over heating event, and damage to equipment/boat, or loss of life.

The first step in correcting a problem is to identify the problem (you failed to follow the manufacturers instructions, and used the wrong wire). The reason you did that, as stated is immaterial, and just obscures the root problem.
The next step is to figure out what to do about it, which is:

1. Immediately stop using the dangerous installation
2. Correct the root problem (install the system in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations)

Yes, it REALLY is that simple.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program of of who is to blame . . . .

First, I mostly agree with you (Slowgoesit), but doesn't it strike you that Victron's deadband of acceptable installation parameters is a bit narrow, borderline unrealistic? Their MPPTs are not just installed in boats where fine-strand cable is common, but in houses, vans, and RVs where fine strand cable is rare, certainly pre-madeup ones with MC4 connectors. Also, I may not have read the entire install manual for the Victron MPPTs but I did a quick word search trying to find acceptable voltage loss or at least sizing vs distance run. I didn't find that information anywhere. Is 3% loss the right number (meaning MPPT must be within 7.5 feet of the panels)? Is 10% loss the right number? Don't you think that's at least as important as guidance on fine-strand wire?

I think Mambo may not be his own best advocate here, but let's be brutally frank. A lot of posts have given Victron plausible deniability. But in my mind, their hands are far from clean.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

A narrow range of parameters.....

Hmmmm....

What other manufacturer says it is OK for using a product that does not meet their specifications?

Engine manufacturers and oil specs?

Car manufacturers and tire specs...detailed u p to max speeds and air pressures for not only weight but per axle? I know most people are clueless on this one and rely on the distributer to recommend...unless you bring in your own tires to the only guy in town.

Ect...etc....etc.....and on and on.....

Sure there are products that accept a lot of after market components...and there are a lot that can't. Some can be near harmless and other can be catastrophic.

Complaining about the company works to a point...but then saying the manufacturer is located in a country known for doing things right? This thread if turned into a movie would have a hard time being placed in the right category..... Drama, Documentary or Comedy.... though the longer it goes, Comedy gets my vote.

Mambo is entitled to an opinion.... but that neither makes it fact, reality or even close to being the "right" thing to do as we DON'T live in a perfect world...it's our place to adjust, not think the world should change. Heck I am guilty of my soapbox too...but people remind me all the time "STFU".

I can't count the times I picked another product because the product I wanted had lousy factory customer service. Right now I am saddened I bought a Mako skiff because the company in my opinion has their heads up their proverbial butt on this ticket. Their response to rely on the dealer is ridiculous as they are clueless on this relatively new product model. My options....sell it and take a loss, or figure things out on my own which I have partially accomplished.

Like I have said about most boat builds...till you take a chainsaw to them....you have no idea what the quality really is for the whole boat.

PS: as far as 3% or 10% loss...the word often used is "critical" loss to equipment. To me that means outside acceptable parameters. Solar controllers charge batteries usually so what is the output at the ends of the wires touching the batteries? If within the recommended charging range for those batteries, then certainly not "critical". Critical to me would be "loss" of equipment or "damage"..... not necessarily longer charging time or similar.

 

[ksanders]

First, I mostly agree with you (Slowgoesit), but doesn't it strike you that Victron's deadband of acceptable installation parameters is a bit narrow, borderline unrealistic? Their MPPTs are not just installed in boats where fine-strand cable is common, but in houses, vans, and RVs where fine strand cable is rare, certainly pre-madeup ones with MC4 connectors. Also, I may not have read the entire install manual for the Victron MPPTs but I did a quick word search trying to find acceptable voltage loss or at least sizing vs distance run. I didn't find that information anywhere. Is 3% loss the right number (meaning MPPT must be within 7.5 feet of the panels)? Is 10% loss the right number? Don't you think that's at least as important as guidance on fine-strand wire?

I think Mambo may not be his own best advocate here, but let's be brutally frank. A lot of posts have given Victron plausible deniability. But in my mind, their hands are far from clean.

Peter

No Peter. Victrons deadband of acceptable installation paramaters is not overly narrow.

Wire comes in several types, and Victron specifies finely stranded wire.

Not finely stranded marine wire
not tin plated wire

They simply specify finely stranded wire.

BTW finely stranded wire is available world wide, especially in the larger sizes as it is used in the welding industry.

 

[mvweebles]

A narrow range of parameters.....

Hmmmm....

What other manufacturer says it is OK for using a product that does not meet their specifications?

First, I did not find a crucial spec for Victron - acceptable voltage loss or size vs distance (there might have been a cross reference to some sort of electrical code which, while CYA, doesn't exactly help a field installer). Second, there is a picture showing fine strand is acceptable but no description why. Is it due to vibration or perhaps voltage loss?

I'd guess that if the 100s of solar panel off-the-shelf cables off Amazon etc., exactly zero are compatible with Victron specs (slight exaggeration). So no matter what happens, it's not Victrons fault. This the plausible deniability.

I agree that Mambo has ventured off into some tangents. But giving Victron a pass isn't the right answer either. Their forums show these types of install issues are not uncommon (leaving aside the Greece/DHL thing).

My takeaway from this discussion is be very careful with Victron. They have made some compromises in their design that make correct install very difficult. And they're not exactly helpful.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

From what I read, not only was the wire availability hindered, Mambo wanted "FIRE RETARDANT" wire which is way beyond what most of us use...ANCOR is only "FIRE RESISTANT" (I think). Probably a much harder wire to come by that is sold for marine use.

Haven't changed from my post that described this as "tilting at windmills".

 

[mvweebles]

No Peter. Victrons deadband of acceptable installation paramaters is not overly narrow.

Wire comes in several types, and Victron specifies finely stranded wire.

Not finely stranded marine wire
not tin plated wire

They simply specify finely stranded wire.

BTW finely stranded wire is available world wide, especially in the larger sizes as it is used in the welding industry.

I'm pretty sure I spent some time looking for battery cable in La Paz and did indeed find Anchor cable. But having searched in Cabo and other Mexican locations, finding it in smaller sizes isn't easy. Even in the US, I don't recall seeing much #10 in anything other than a dozen or so strands. And why? Is it a capacity issue or a vibration issue?

So how about the acceptable voltage loss, or at least distance/wire size parameters that many equipment providers specify?

Kevin, I ask these questions as an "every guy" type of owner and I know you have deep subject matter expertise. I've definitely figured out I need to take these types of installs more carefully, but for me, still some lacking information.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Wire loss is determined by what's needed, not what the wire can do. You apply that AFTER determining what is required at the end of the wire...like the battery from a charger/controller, like a GPS, or the sounder that keeps dropping off line because the too small a wire voltage drop..... IT's the NEED, not the wire. On a battery the 10%, even a 15% drop, may be acceptable where the Sounder can't tolerate anything more than a 3-5 % drop.

Wire only cares about not exceeding ampacity, doesn't care about voltage drop as long as all it's other requirement aren't exceeded.






't exceeded.

 

[SteveK]

IMHO. Fine strand wire has less air space between strands. Once compressed there is less chance of that air space being filled with malleable copper wire that heats up and changes shape.
Large wire strands have a better chance of losing the compression as it heats up.
The set screws torque can be lessened with larger strand wire. A correct size crimp connection not so much.

 

[luna]

Finely stranded wire simply has more surface area in contact with the conducting portion of the terminal.

More surface area generally means less resistance and as a result, less heat is generated.

 

[twistedtree]

IMHO. Fine strand wire has less air space between strands. Once compressed there is less chance of that air space being filled with malleable copper wire that heats up and changes shape.
Large wire strands have a better chance of losing the compression as it heats up.
The set screws torque can be lessened with larger strand wire. A correct size crimp connection not so much.

Exactly. Heavier strands don’t clamp as tightly and are subject to wiggling lose, just like they did in this case.

Connector manufacturers routinely specify what range of conductors are acceptable. This covers not only the gauge, but solid vs stranded, strand count, number of gauge of conductors when you can have more than one. ABB, for example, spells all this out, including when you need to use ferrules. You need to follow these rules for the device to work properly.

I understand, especially now that it’s been repeated it a few dozen time, that shipping, duties, in-country stocking, importation, etc. makes doing electric work in Greece very difficult, and that because of those difficulties you elected to do what Victron told you not to do, and what Victron told you would happen as a consequence, happened. Would your job have been easier if Victorin’s products allowed a wider range of wire sizes and types? Yes, no doubt, and it’s good feedback for Victron that will probably be ignored. Would things have been better if your installer was more aware of the issues, or read the manual? Yes, but they aren’t the first, or the last that suck at what they do. Sorry, that’s a reality, just like shipping and importation in Greece.

Another thing I don’t understand is that you said you are in the Netherlands on a regular basis, perhaps even weekly. Couldn’t you have sourced the correct materials there and hand carried them to the boat? People do that all the time in other countries with similar disfunction.

 

[Bmarler]

Agree with Luna on the surface area in fine strand. Couple that with the air space argument and you get wire with better conducting characteristics and less likelihood to deform with heat cycling.

 

[bowball]

Finely stranded wire simply has more surface area in contact with the conducting portion of the terminal.

More surface area generally means less resistance and as a result, less heat is generated.

I learned this from this thread. While I used a professional installer who followed the instructions it gives me the ability to ask informed questions. I hadn’t realized this before.

 

[bowball]

What I get out of this thread is...... that Victron failed to sell a product that had a universal wiring block that could use whatever wiring/connector was on hand. Having a universal block or "Greece" model would be good engineering and make the most sense.

Like some manufactures include universal power adapters for their appliances that come right in the package.

Sure......that is one way to do it. However more and more you see their prices are more than the competitor that doesn't include it or that the same company doesn't include it and charges less...often very close to the price of the adaptor.

Does that make Victron at fault? Well one can argue it might be bad business, but in no way one can blame a meltdown on them when there is literature, internet postings and videos warning of a potential problem.

So like the power adaptor idea, if I read a one star review that says a product is lousy because the plugged a 120V plug into a 200V+ outlet WITHOUT the adaptor I really don't take it seriously as a PRODUCT problem or a MANUFACTURER problem.

Wish I had read this summary instead of the whole repetitive thread.

 

[ksanders]

I'm pretty sure I spent some time looking for battery cable in La Paz and did indeed find Anchor cable. But having searched in Cabo and other Mexican locations, finding it in smaller sizes isn't easy. Even in the US, I don't recall seeing much #10 in anything other than a dozen or so strands. And why? Is it a capacity issue or a vibration issue?

So how about the acceptable voltage loss, or at least distance/wire size parameters that many equipment providers specify?

Kevin, I ask these questions as an "every guy" type of owner and I know you have deep subject matter expertise. I've definitely figured out I need to take these types of installs more carefully, but for me, still some lacking information.

Peter

Wire comes in three basic types.

Solid core is what you see in homes. For the most part it is found in a product called ROMEX which is multi conductor in a insulating sheath.

Normal stranded wire is used in commercial applications. It is inexpensive, functional, and generally is sold with THHN insulation, which is thin, and slick, making for an easy pull through conduit.

Fine stranded wire is used in instrumentation, and vehicle installations. It is very easy to bend, and has high vibration fault resistance. It generally it will be sold with XHHW insulation or some deriveritive, which provides better abrasion and water resistance. You can tell the difference between THHN and XHHW very easily. THHN is a thin hard insulator, whereas XHHW is rubbery and thicker.

Since we generally use fine stranded copper wire in vehicles, it is appropriate that Victron used connectors suitable for that type of wire.

As far as voltage loss, the industry standard is 10%, not the 3% you see in some marine wire size tables.
The connectors on the Victron equipment are suitable in size, and are actually oversized in many cased for 10%. The problem for many DIY'ers is to realize that losses and voltage variations are an inherent part of life. You do not need to eliminate them, just be aware that they exist.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yes, the wire from the panels can be much less gauge than the wire to the batteries as solar panel is much higher voltage, less current. The output to the batteries is the opposite.

 

[Mambo42]

@Mambo42
Did I read that you supplied the parts to the installer?
The source of your purchased equipment should be the responsible for stocking the correct cable.

Before we did the rewire of the whole boat I spoke with several companies, told them what I wanted and then asked them how they thought to make that happen.
So what happened is they made a list of all the equipment they needed. Since the prices in Greece are roughly 2.5 times what I pay in the Netherlands we decided I would buy all the Victron equipment straight from Victron in the Netherlands, bring it to Greece so that the company could install it. Doing it that way I saved about 25.000 euro and I guess everyone would do the same thing if they had the chance to do save so much money. All the other items were going to be arranged by the installation company.

In no way did I have the intention to become an electrical engineer or figure out how to correctly install all that equipment. That was the job of the company that was installing the equipment, not me. I merely bought what they needed.
So no, I did not read the manual of Victron myself prior to the installation job, why would and should I ? I had hired an official company (trained by Victron) for that. I also did not read any of the manuals of the equipment that was going to be installed and again: why would I or should I, that is not my job.

As I stated before, I am the end consumer, this was not a DIY job and I did pay the installation company a very handsome amount of money. The time period in which it had to be done was short, especially when you realize they first had to rip out everything that needed to be replaced and then put new cables in. The pile of cables (and equipment) that came out was about 2 cubic meters in total.
The company did call me to let me know they could not source the 5 mm2 cable, their supplier did not have that cable. So the question became: 'what do we do ?' You want to order it, pay it and hope it will arrive or shall we go with the 6 mm2, which we already use for the remaining MPPT controllers anyway ?
Knowing that the marina would start charging 150 euro a day for every day after end of March (the 2.5 month period) and not knowing when that 5 mm2 cable would arrive, if it would ever arrive, I gave the go ahead on the 6 mm2 cable. The one thing the installation company did not tell me was that the cable would not fit with a ferrule, I guess they figures that one out when they were trying to fit it to the MPPT controller.

So that is about the way this whole thing happened. When the installation was done I was in the Caribbean, where I lived, which was a 7 hour time difference with Greece. Not exactly an easy chance to communicate. By the time they finish work my day would start. On top of that, they are the company that should know what to do, not me.

I know there are some of you here who are electricians and who have the idea that as a boat owner you should basically be able to build your own boat. Am sorry, I am not one of those people. I need to know enough of the boat to be able to repair it while out at sea or do small maintenance, but am not interested in doing the job of others who have actually studied for it.
When I open a catalog for electricity cables and I see 500 different cables I expect the distributor or the installation company to tell me what I need. I am not going to study for months to be able to make my own choice, that is not going to happen. So when I get an advice I am also not going to second guess that company. They are the distributor, I expect them to know their job. As a pilot the Air Force expected me to know my job and later in the air lines the passengers expected me to know my job as well. I never had a passenger come to me, asking me the details about an approach I had to make.

 

[SteveK]

Well, you unwittingly allowed them to proceed with the wrong cable. You were not told nor did you read the consequences of using the wrong cable. They covered their ass and you are left hanging.