40 something foot yachts - engine variables

[ksanders]

I never said Grand Banks were displacement hulls. I have been referring to economical, low-power “trawler style” boats that most people associate with the term “trawler.” My complaint remains, if you want a quality motor yacht that goes 18+ knots, you have a plethora of boats to choose from. If you want the equivalent of the 120 hp Marine Trader, GB, Monk etc. of yesteryear, they are nearly non-existent. As for semi-planing being a “marketing term,” I refer to Eric Sorensen’s discussion of different powerboat hull designs in his Guide to Powerboats.

The problem you have with that kind of boat is it represents a limited marketing opportunity for a boat builder.

Plenty of people want to travel the world and the expedition boat business seems good for the likes of Nordhavn, Selene, KK, just to name the big players.

Not so many people want to be forced to go slow in a boat that cannot fulfill their dream of crossing oceans.

Thats why you see very few of these boats being built.

But... plenty of people want to go slow much of the time with the option to go faster when they want to, even if it is not very often.

This is a fairly popular market with all kinds of boats being made, from italian styling, to more traditional looking boats, and boats with the "trawler look".

Here is a link to the Helmesman 46. Beautiful pilothouse "trawler" boat.

https://www.helmsmantrawlers.com/helmsman-trawlers/46-pilothouse/

standard engine is 500HP +-

Why??? A smaller engine could maybe lower the price by $20,000 or so...

People want the faster available cruising speed the larger engine represents.

 

[mvweebles]

It's pretty simple. Builders built what they could sell. After the 1970's fuel crisis died down, people started ordering boats with upgraded engines. The builders figured out pretty quickly what this meant. Those that didn't, suffered the consequences - Willard stopped building trawlers in 2001. All you have to do is track the covers of Passaemaker Magazine that almost always has a boat running at flank-speed.

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm on the low speed plan too. Two 235 HP turbo diesels is too much for this boat. Not "way" too much, but a little.

The boat would be good with a couple of 125's. But yeah, you take what you can get in the used boat business.

 

[twistedtree]

I never said Grand Banks were displacement hulls. I have been referring to economical, low-power “trawler style” boats that most people associate with the term “trawler.” My complaint remains, if you want a quality motor yacht that goes 18+ knots, you have a plethora of boats to choose from. If you want the equivalent of the 120 hp Marine Trader, GB, Monk etc. of yesteryear, they are nearly non-existent. As for semi-planing being a “marketing term,” I refer to Eric Sorensen’s discussion of different powerboat hull designs in his Guide to Powerboats.

OK, so let's list "trawler" style boats built today that have displacement hulls.


Norhavn
Kady Krogen
Selene
Diesel Ducks (not really production boats)
A Handful of different FPB-style boats
Northern Marine


What else? There must be more.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. tt. Cheoy Lee.

 

[twistedtree]

Greetings,
Mr. tt. Cheoy Lee.

Still being built? Probably doesn't matter for the OP's search, so add to that:


Defeaver and probably a whole bunch more...

 

[Action]

Yeah I am approaching retirement age, Kevin. And that is my thinking. And long ago I was in the car business. The time frame when vehicles were built can be a lot different than today.

I am on my 4th boat and everything to this point has been under 30 feet, on a trailer, powered by a single gas engine. And I always purchase new.

I thought of the possibility of buying something that would be passage making. And out for months if not a year at a time out of sight of land for long stretches. That was until I really did the research. I will not have the capital in the near future and I am not that crazy. So coastal cruising is more realistic. (And, I do have a big aversion to named events. Running away from those is high on the priority list)

My next one is going to be 40 to 45 in length, diesel and pre-owned. Likely built in the late 80s to early 90s. I want to have enough $ (like 20% of the purchase price) to fix crap that a survey may or may not catch. If I buy new, it would be a big stretch (or not feasible without financing) and nothing left to make any changes. I have done that when I was young, do not need to do that now.

The use is going to be to explore mostly the Eastern US. (Which is a move of the dirt home to an Eastern location and that is OK too) The exploration is not going to be on a time table and have no desire to move fast unless the weather is making a decision.

Most of the stuff that appeals to me is Taiwan built vessel with an aft cabin. Not sure what kind of hull type is being used. Pick the builder, I think they all shared molds anyway so they may all be the same. And not sure that has a correct label of a trawler. But don't care about titles too much. Everything is a tradeoff. However, I know that whatever powers the vessel is nearly 50% of the purchase price. So, getting that piece correct for me is kind of important.

 

[mvweebles]

........ However, I know that whatever powers the vessel is nearly 50% of the purchase price. So, getting that piece correct for me is kind of important.

Interesting. For me, if I were in the market for a new boat, I'm not sure engine would even be a Top 5 consideration. Access for maintenance would drive certain engine configurations, and I'd certainly have preferences that would skew a decision, but engine itself would not be high on my list of selection criteria. Given the expense that you rightly point out, perhaps it should be.

Best of luck with your search.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

Interesting. For me, if I were in the market for a new boat, I'm not sure engine would even be a Top 5 consideration. Access for maintenance would drive certain engine configurations, and I'd certainly have preferences that would skew a decision, but engine itself would not be high on my list of selection criteria. Given the expense that you rightly point out, perhaps it should be.

For us, engines we didn't want were a sort of criterion. Two-stroke Detroits, mostly, with some others.

And too, a separate lists of engines we might not want unless they came with complete, significant service records. Cat 3196s, Cummins QSM-11s, one of the Yanmars, some others.

These days, given our current situation/experience, I'd also probably nix any V-configuration... unless the boat has at least a 17' beam and the engines are located to take advantage of that.

-Chris

 

[Jorgeinseal]

I have twin Cummins 330hp that I run at 1800-2000rpm when heading to Catalina. The last 15 minutes of the 2 way trip I run at 2400-2600 to help keep injectors clean.

 

[ksanders]

Yeah I am approaching retirement age, Kevin. And that is my thinking. And long ago I was in the car business. The time frame when vehicles were built can be a lot different than today.

I am on my 4th boat and everything to this point has been under 30 feet, on a trailer, powered by a single gas engine. And I always purchase new.

I thought of the possibility of buying something that would be passage making. And out for months if not a year at a time out of sight of land for long stretches. That was until I really did the research. I will not have the capital in the near future and I am not that crazy. So coastal cruising is more realistic. (And, I do have a big aversion to named events. Running away from those is high on the priority list)

My next one is going to be 40 to 45 in length, diesel and pre-owned. Likely built in the late 80s to early 90s. I want to have enough $ (like 20% of the purchase price) to fix crap that a survey may or may not catch. If I buy new, it would be a big stretch (or not feasible without financing) and nothing left to make any changes. I have done that when I was young, do not need to do that now.

The use is going to be to explore mostly the Eastern US. (Which is a move of the dirt home to an Eastern location and that is OK too) The exploration is not going to be on a time table and have no desire to move fast unless the weather is making a decision.

Most of the stuff that appeals to me is Taiwan built vessel with an aft cabin. Not sure what kind of hull type is being used. Pick the builder, I think they all shared molds anyway so they may all be the same. And not sure that has a correct label of a trawler. But don't care about titles too much. Everything is a tradeoff. However, I know that whatever powers the vessel is nearly 50% of the purchase price. So, getting that piece correct for me is kind of important.

I agree with your post, and your situation almost 100%. In fact your life situation described mine as well.

Thats why I started out dreaming of a passagemaker but in the end bought my Bayliner 4788 pilothouse. I looked at the reality of my life and decided that I would have to work into my "retirement years" if I leveraged my way into a higher dollar boat.

At over a year and many thousand miles of full time cruising, every day I am happy that I'm not still sitting in my office at work paying for my boat.

As far as the engines, it's not something you really choose, and unless you are buying new engines the cost of the engines is not a huge percentage of the boats cost on a larger boat.

My thoughts are to choose the layout you like, and make sure the engines that your preferred boat have are maintainable, and that their lifecycle is in a place you are comfortable with. Myself I intentionally bought a boat and immediatly repowered it so that I could hopefully avoid big money engine repairs during my non working years of life.

 

[Action]

I have twin Cummins 330hp that I run at 1800-2000rpm when heading to Catalina. The last 15 minutes of the 2 way trip I run at 2400-2600 to help keep injectors clean.

Thanks for posting that.
I have never had a diesel engine in anything, so I would like to ask about this routine you posted about. And I have heard a number of times in marine applications. And yet the auto world, of which I am far more versed in, never does this with a diesel engine.

Running up the RPM under load for 15 minutes is done for what reason?
Do all marine diesels need this? (Including marine generators)
The diesels are too oversized for the application?
Or is there something else I do not understand?

 

[Comodave]

We have 450 Cummins in our current boat. If we are going to run slowly I run it up on plane for the first 15 to 20 minutes to get the engines hot and my thinking is that the engines will stay hot throughout the run. A lot of people run them up at the end of a run to heat the engines up, I don’t know if it makes any difference or not.

 

[Comodave]

Interesting. For me, if I were in the market for a new boat, I'm not sure engine would even be a Top 5 consideration. Access for maintenance would drive certain engine configurations, and I'd certainly have preferences that would skew a decision, but engine itself would not be high on my list of selection criteria. Given the expense that you rightly point out, perhaps it should be.

Best of luck with your search.

Peter

Agree. My criteria for boat engines is not Volvo. I prefer Cummins but would accept most anything but Volvo.

 

[Mako]

Approaching retirement and looking forward to long term, remote cruising. Regarding to engine(s), if I were to buy used then I would hope for junked engines or old Jimmies, Cats or something outdated, because 100% I would repower. But I’m talking about a very long term hold, to remote areas, so it would be worth the investment, similar to what KSanders just stated.

Am considering a new build (decision to be made when I return from China around New Year) which brings up whole new complications about an electronic versus old-school mechanical engine.

 

[Comodave]

Approaching retirement and looking forward to long term, remote cruising. Regarding to engine(s), if I were to buy used then I would hope for junked engines or old Jimmies, Cats or something outdated, because 100% I would repower. But I’m talking about a very long term hold, to remote areas, so it would be worth the investment, similar to what KSanders just stated.

Am considering a new build (decision to be made when I return from China around New Year) which brings up whole new complications about an electronic versus old-school mechanical engine.

I am too old to wait for a new build if I were looking for a new boat. I would not want to wait for a year or two on a new boat build.

 

[mvweebles]

I am too old to wait for a new build if I were looking for a new boat. I would not want to wait for a year or two on a new boat build.

Falls under the category of "Too old to buy green bananas...."

Peter

 

[Action]

As far as the engines, it's not something you really choose, and unless you are buying new engines the cost of the engines is not a huge percentage of the boats cost on a larger boat.

My thoughts are to choose the layout you like, and make sure the engines that your preferred boat have are maintainable, and that their lifecycle is in a place you are comfortable with. Myself I intentionally bought a boat and immediatly repowered it so that I could hopefully avoid big money engine repairs during my non working years of life.

The engine choices can happen. For the given layout, (at least the one I prefer now) an older vessel comes with twin Lehmans or Perkins. Or in a rare event a single, usually in a MT. However I am not fond of MTs
Later versions will have larger engines. Which I do not understand as the basic hull appears to the same or similar. And the displacement may increase some. Just as small percent. I am assuming this is a market preference for the time period.

I would prefer not to repower if at all possible. I am good with well-maintained old tech. And truly condition is what makes the real value. I have the technical skill set to do most of any of the work. I just do not have the knowledge, experience or willingness to do major work. That labor will be purchased. Which may be if the vessel was priced correct for the condition and major work is known and priced for hired labor I might consider that choice. The knowns in a major project can be the hurdle.

Interesting you took the approach to repower going into a purchase.

My first two boats were Bayliners. I lived in Washington State for both of those purchases. (A 1950 Cuddy and a 2755 Express Crusier)

 

[mvweebles]

..... labor will be purchased. Which may be if the vessel was priced correct for the condition and major work is known and priced for hired labor I might consider that choice.

You have a better chance of coming out ahead of you buy lottery tickets. No matter what the price and what the work, chance of losing significant money is higher than walking into a Las Vegas casino. That's not hyperbole. Not to mention lost time and holding costs.

This morning, I talked to a guy who was given a 40-ish foot Maple Leaf sailboat. That free boat is costing him a fortune.

Careful. Easiest way to become a millionaire in boats is start as a multimillionaire and know when to stop.

I speak from experience.

Peter

 

[Action]

That is not the scenario I would be seeking.
If that scenario happened a lot of investigating would take place first.
Kevin did it so there is a possibility.

And what I would seek first is what I stated in the paragraph that was only partly quoted.

"I would prefer not to repower if at all possible. I am good with well-maintained old tech."

 

[OldDan1943]

I had nothing to do other than wait for the sun to come up and drink coffee so,I read this entire blog. I found it very interesting, informative and filled with opinions, which I do enjoy reading.
I would suggest researching the American Tug. Why? Because I own one and am happy. Mine is a 34. In hindsight, I should have bought in the lower 40ft range, for greater internal space storage of the yet to be used spare parts. I added cabinets to squeeze out more storage space. The 34, now 36, is very easy to single hand partly due to the bow and stern thrusters. I added a wireless DockMaster, a worthy addition.
Generally speaking, the used market is almost non-existent. The used ATs are sucked up quickly.

 

[Action]

an American Trawler

I would agree anything smaller than the 41 is not enough space.
To make a pre-owned AT 41 fit financially, we would have to full time with no dirt home.
I have a lot of latitude in my marriage in matters that that are marine.
That would not be one.
In addition, I would have to make some hard decisions regarding my 5 classic cars.
BTW at the moment there are 23 listed on YW. Seven are pre-owned.

Was a nice virtual look see.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Trying to hold position against a 4 knot current and then make a bridge opening with the trusty old Lehman, been there done that.
Current setup twin Perkins turbos. Comfortable cruising speed 6 to 8 knots reasonable fuel consumption. Most people on the boat never see anything but that.
If I need it; on plane at 22 mph on a 42' boat. Although I have very rarely pushed it to that extreme it's a comfort to know I can move it quickly if necessary.

 

[OldDan1943]

an American Trawler

I would agree anything smaller than the 41 is not enough space.
To make a pre-owned AT 41 fit financially, we would have to full time with no dirt home.
I have a lot of latitude in my marriage in matters that that are marine.
That would not be one.
In addition, I would have to make some hard decisions regarding my 5 classic cars.
BTW at the moment there are 23 listed on YW. Seven are pre-owned.

Was a nice virtual look see.

My AT34 had more than enough room until my clothes horse moved on board. Now, things are a bit cramp, especially in the hanging closet. Now if I can just teach her how to cook and eat western style. She HAD to have a wok so I bought one. She has yet to use it. O well. SHRUG. I could do with fewer pans too but my defense, I have used every pan.

 

[Bacchus]

There certainly lots of different ways to enjoy the water.

I just ran across this and it probably the extreme end of the spectrum

https://seacoastcurrent.com/who-owns-the-400m-82-room-gigayacht-floating-in-this-maine-harbor/

450+ ft, 62+ ft beam and four 12,000+ HP engines to reach 30 knots!
It also reveals that he is a 2 boat owner with his other one slightly smaller.

I'll bet it could do 6-8 kn with a lot less HP

It doesn't mention the fuel burn but I know it's above my pay grade!

 

[PierreR]

an American Trawler

I would agree anything smaller than the 41 is not enough space.
To make a pre-owned AT 41 fit financially, we would have to full time with no dirt home.
I have a lot of latitude in my marriage in matters that that are marine.
That would not be one.
In addition, I would have to make some hard decisions regarding my 5 classic cars.
BTW at the moment there are 23 listed on YW. Seven are pre-owned.

Was a nice virtual look see.

You probably can afford something over 40'. The key here is everything changes after 30 years. Once a boat reaches 30 years no matter how good it is there is a drastic price drop because the boat is not longer eligible for traditional financing. In other words, cash is king and what the market will bear in cash. That eliminates a whole lot of buyers. You can find quality turn key boats for well under $200k

Many people buy 40'+ boats only to downsize. I found out through conversations that a large percentage of big boat owners are actually intimidated by the boat and not comfortable except in ideal conditions.

 

[Action]

I will be a cash buyer. To get there I will sell some Real Estate.
Likely I could finance if I want to and I am very adverse to that option. (That is my line of work, just not financing floating assets)

Moving up to the over 40' world will definitely be a learning curve. I envision getting professional help for that. Moving down will mean moving out all together. Or really just going back to my 27' Express Cruiser which I am not planning on selling anyway. That may happen at some point. (selling the 27) I just do not need that to happen.

Regarding horses as mentioned above, my wife is a horse. A race horse, as her hobby is marathons. (full 26 1/2 mile ones) For that hobby, the amount of clothing is not much. However, there are a boat load of shoes where ever she goes.

All of this has been kind of fun and we are a bit off topic of why it may be necessary to have horsepower over say 500. (On a 40 to 45 foot, under 30,000 pound aft cabin cruising at 10kt or less) The last time this was addressed was in post #54. Making way for a lock or bridge is not a consideration. The solution for me is just waiting. I have had to wait for far worse, and I would get to wait on the water! For me that is an acceptable price to pay.

The other comment about a 4 kt current is more real to me. Or add to that wind. Not property destruction wind, something less than that. Looking at vessels that are 20 feet off of the water with canvas and other things, it appears to me as a wind catcher.

Most of my intended cruising would either be loop areas (inland) with a focus on the Great Lakes (outside of winter or temps below 40f) or coastal cruising.

What kind of hp would be necessary to go North from the Gulf?
Or is it just better to go down stream?
Where else would one encounter a current of significance that could not be waited out, like a tide?

 

[pbsurf]

Lehman power

Inara is a 1972 GB 42'classic powered by twin 108 hp Lehmans with Simms P-5088 fuel injection pumps. Close to 6000 hrs and including the 900 hrs I have added in almost 6 yrs. Painted green, I am partial to the color . Surveys say the displacement is 34K. I have 7.5 knots running 1375 rpm. 2.5GPH total or a little better. Not pushing up a big wake. More rpm and the wake rises, fuel burn up, speed increase, isn't necessary but if running hard, 1600 is the max torque rpm and makes 8.3 kts. Don't like full throttle running (port 2300 stbd 2140) at all with the noise, vapor cloud tinted with grey, and stress on the engine. I have plenty of ways to spend on the boat (currently awaiting Benmar auto pilot power unit rebuild) so minimizing fuel burn to 2-3 GPH works for me.

 

[Action]

^^ Thanks for posting.
Fuel economy is nice and a factor. However not a big factor. If I wanted great fuel economy I would go camping with a pop up. I know I am going to burn up a bunch of fuel.

How does that GB operate agains a tide? (Not too many rivers on the West Coast until you get to the City of Roses.)

Or is this math correct?
Traveling at 8kts with no current would be 4kts net going up a 4kt current?
8 - 4 = 4

 

[pbsurf]

tidal running

Gain a knot or lose one with the ebb and flood here Mission Bay San Diego approx 1 mile from wide open ocean. Tidal current is not a factor when I go boating. I think the Lehman engines are near perfect for my boat. New or rebuilt would be better of course. New motor mounts better again. I may be mistaken but the Perkins 6 cylinder 135 or 180 turbo are bit quieter tho don't know their fuel burn.